Seeing as we're doing driving stuff today, and prompted by some of the stuff TJ has said (only in a roundabout way in case you're wondering exactly what brought this one on).

If a car is overtaking you (you're riding a bicycle) what are you more bothered by:
a) how fast they're going
b) how close they get

b)

a) means they're past me sooner

How close – and how quickly they pull in again.

As TJ says, it's how quickly they pull back in that bothers me.

From experience, I'd say the cars you have to watch are not those that pass quickly, but those that you can hear drifting up for a while and then they slowly meander past you. They're the ones that are going to turn left in front of you.

What about if they "undertake" you? 😀

EDIT: before they do a right turn?

If they hit me.

I have had a couple of those – one got dented the other sworn at.

If they hit me with their rhythm stick, then that's fine.

What about their fondue sticks?

Both.

I'm often asked this by non-cycling colleagues at work, especially in relation to crossing solid white lines. (The Law allos drivers to cross them to overtake a cyclist ONLY if they are travelling at 10mph or less).

The HC is clear again:

You should give cyclists at least as much room as you would when overtaking a car.

Ergo you shouldn't overtake a cyclist in the face of oncoming traffic.

Others on here might try and justify their driving by saying they are happy to have a car overtake them at speed giving them 'just' enough room.
Others might not be, they might not be so confident, it might be windy, there may be potholes or sunken drains you can't see.

Distance, rather than speed. Part of my old bike commute used to be on a 60 limit dual carriageway, I had no problems with people passing me at 60 providing they gave me a metre or so, though when driving I tend to give cyclists in the same situation about a car width.

Ergo you shouldn't overtake a cyclist in the face of oncoming traffic.

I've no problem overtaking a cyclist with oncoming traffic if the road is wide enough and the other cars are not hogging the centre line, but that's a pretty rare event. When in bike commute mode I'm fairly happy with cars being an arms length away when passing, but as a driver I'm aware other people might not be as confident.

It's all about how close. I've been overtaken by a guy driving a proper Porsche who waited for a gap then went for it, loads of room, nice and safe. Perfectly fine.
It's just a shame that all the Audi, Seat, vw, Nissan drivers mostly decide that 2.5" is about the right distance to pass.

its all about speed for me

if we are in traffic and the cars going slow i dont mind being overtaken closeish

BUT if like the other night on the backroad from kingswells your a transit doing 60 and give me about 50cms from my bars you will get shouted at and sworn at when you stop at the lights !

How close they pass and how quick they pull back in.

Definitely how close they pass and also how close they get behind me before they begin the overtake. Cars/vans/buses that breathe down my neck worry me – how could they react in time if I crashed over a manhole / pothole etc?

For me its the safety of the situation that Im most concerned with.

If I can hear something approaching that will want to overtake, but the road isnt safe (white lines, blind bends, junctions, other traffic etc etc) then Ill drift towards the centre of the lane more so that the driver has to make a concious decision to fully cross the centre line with more than just their offside wheels if they want to go past rather than let them assume they can carry on at their present speed as they come past, taking a lot of road from me, a bit of road from the other side and hoping there's nothing imposing coming up which if there was, I would be the one to be sacrificed to the gods of road space.

What winds me up more is being overtaken when I'm approaching a queue/junction. People try and get past only to end up stuck at the back. It doesn't get you to your destination any faster. Seeing as this is in traffic they usually end up pretty close. So in answer to the orignal question, proximity to my bar end caps.

Oggles – that's the MPB mentality (must pass bike)

I am constantly mystified by drivers who pass me without pulling out at all even if there are no other cars on the road and there is good visibility. It is almost like they cannot be bothered to steer round me.

I read somewhere that frequent looking over your shoulder indicates to car drivers that you are aware of their presence and the result is that they will give you more room when they pass. Not sure if it works but I have started doing it more often. (Mind you my commute means that this is possible as I don't have a constant stream of cars passing me)

Definitely b. Close is a lot more worrying that fast.

Close pass from car this morning.

This was in a 30 so didn't really feel all that dangerous, however I've had people pass almost as close in a 60 when I used to have an out-of-town element to my commute.

Scariest overtake was in a 60 when a articulated lorry passed me and pulled in way too early, with the trailer nearly catching me.

(b) – for me

Looking around helps, as does little 'wobbles' from time to time to show that you need a bit of space. If I'm in any doubt about cars having enough space to pass safely without squeezing me, then I'll check behind and drift out a little.

In the last year or so, when I'm driving, I've also found myself drifting more towards the centreline when there are cyclists coming towards me with a car trying to squeeze past behind them. I've seen the opposite happen when I'm on my bike, with the result that the first car squeezes past, but then the later cars haven't spotted you and get closer and closer.

pffff….drivers eh? 🙄

Bit of both for me.
The faster they are passing me then the further away I prefer them to be. I do like a minimum space of my own arm length or so – If I can touch there car they are too close – they usually get a rap on the proverbial knuckles (wing mirror or roof) to let them know they are too close.

GavinB – Member

(b) – for me

Looking around helps, as does little 'wobbles' from time to time to show that you need a bit of space. If I'm in any doubt about cars having enough space to pass safely without squeezing me, then I'll check behind and drift out a little.
Agree. Little wobbles are good to show that you actually take up a metre or so of road space, about half a lane.

In the last year or so, when I'm driving, I've also found myself drifting more towards the centreline when there are cyclists coming towards me with a car trying to squeeze past behind them.

Disagree. If the overtaking driver has commited to the overtake then you are at risk of hitting them head-on or forcing them back into the area of the cyclist. You are also in the wrong if you are crossing the white line into on-comming traffic.

Well a very nice driver yesterday was about to cut in front 8Oof me to go in a car park .I was already passed the turning , when i turned and looked daggers at him he kindly waved me on !

How close – and how quickly they pull in again.

same for me too.

In the last year or so, when I'm driving, I've also found myself drifting more towards the centreline when there are cyclists coming towards me with a car trying to squeeze past behind them. I've seen the opposite happen when I'm on my bike, with the result that the first car squeezes past, but then the later cars haven't spotted you and get closer and closer.

Neither is a good situation, but by drifting to the centre you're simply endangering the cyclist. The car has already committed, most people struggle to back out of overtakes (for some reason, I've no idea why its just something I've observed) and tend to either run right up the bum of the cyclist or just squash them against the pavement (naturally trying to avoid the big object that'll hurt more). For the cyclists sake, just move over and let the overtake happen if it's already started – the last thing the driver needs is someone to move the goalposts. Plus, who says you are the correct judge of the distances involved, you should never negatively affect the space other people have on purpose.

coffeeking – Member

In the last year or so, when I'm driving, I've also found myself drifting more towards the centreline when there are cyclists coming towards me with a car trying to squeeze past behind them. I've seen the opposite happen when I'm on my bike, with the result that the first car squeezes past, but then the later cars haven't spotted you and get closer and closer.

Neither is a good situation, but by drifting to the centre you're simply endangering the cyclist. The car has already committed, most people struggle to back out of overtakes (for some reason, I've no idea why its just something I've observed) and tend to either run right up the bum of the cyclist or just squash them against the pavement (naturally trying to avoid the big object that'll hurt more). For the cyclists sake, just move over and let the overtake happen if it's already started – the last thing the driver needs is someone to move the goalposts. Plus, who says you are the correct judge of the distances involved, you should never negatively affect the space other people have on purpose.

Why have you assumed that GavinB drifts towards cars that are already overtaking?

I read it that GavinB is preventing cars from overtaking in a dangerous situation by positioning his car ie drifting earlier than you've assumed.

Obviously if the car has committed to overtaking then I wouldn't drift out. I didn't also mention anything about touching or crossing the white line. What I was referring to was trying to disuade the other car from squeezing the cyclist, not playing some stupid game of chicken!

In the last year or so, when I'm driving, I've also found myself drifting more towards the centreline when there are cyclists coming towards me with a car trying to squeeze past behind them.

This tells me that you can see the car is currently attempting to pass. Semantics, maybe, but do you really have time to judge whether or not the car has already chosen to move from hovering over the tail of the cyclist and pass, have they set up the move and were planning to go in the space that you now fill? If so, and they start to go for it (rightly or wrongly) you've helped cause the accident that kills the cyclist. Just move to the left and let the driver make the decision as to whether there's space, not you, you're not responsible for other peoples actions and trying to predict them causes all sorts of trouble.

Yup, as you say 'semantics'

if the car has already committed then I'd do nothing. What I was (poorly perhaps) trying to illustrate was that quite often when riding, I've noticed cars coming towards me move over to encourage the car behind me to overtake without actually bothering to do it properly ie crossing centreline, indicating, giving me as much space as they would another car.

Probably pointless continuing as we are all agreeing!

epicsteve – I know exactly where that video clip was shot. I'd also say that you're cycling too close to the pavement – I usually ride a bit further out than that, so that a car can't get past whilst there is oncoming traffic.

GavinB – I picked up your meaning when I read your post and nodded my head in agreement.

Always a problem trying to precisely describe such a dynamic situation as I attempted to do above, but it seems that a few people have understood me.

I probably didn't want it to sound like a very 'active' maneouvre, more a very gentle move to try to discourage the other car from passing in a bad spot, and probably forcing the cyclist further into the gutter.

Another situation I'll try to (badly) describe is when you have cars parked on the other side of a road, you are on a bike and you have a car approaching from the other way, but you will clearly enter the parked cars zone first.

Do you:
a. Stay in secondary position and let the other car squeeze past
b. Move out into primary position until past the parked cars
?

b) how close

I ride well out into the road these days, to make cars overtake me properly, rather than have them trying to squeeze past me and cut in because there's a car coming the other way. As has been said, lots of rearward observation and a judicious 'wiggle' now and then.

How many folks have a mirror on their commuting bikes?

I don't on my current build but did previously. That commute was mostly in 60mph limits and I found the mirror very useful when approaching right turns off the main road.

I had a mirror when I first started road riding. I felt it was useful to know what was coming up behind me. I removed it after a few weeks as I'd grown a bit more confident and less panicky when something appeared, at speed, at my elbow. I've thought it might be useful on the Lang Whang sometimes though, especially given the speed some cars (and motorbikes) approach at 🙂

For right turns, I always look behind. I failed my motorcycle test first time around for not doing so and relying on the mirrors.

The beauty of not having a mirror is that when you look over your shoulder the car driver sees you looking at them. In that moment they register that you are there and you are a person, or at least they sometimes do! With a mirror you don't get that bit of communication.

Do you:
a. Stay in secondary position and let the other car squeeze past
b. Move out into primary position until past the parked cars
?

If there is any doubt then b. But realistically a. with lots of eye contact with the oncoming car. Probably move out even more to start with, and then let them come on with a little acknowledgement. If I do b. I often just hold my hand up as I do it.

I've never used a mirror myself, but I'm very much in the habit of doing frequent lifesaver checks, whether I feel they are necessary or not (spider sense isn't always infallible!)

It was the A70 west of Balerno that I found the mirror useful. I'd often use the little back roads that lead from it into Balerno, but that means turning right on one of the faster sections.

I've had looking behind and life-savers battered into me as part of my motorcycle training, however the mirror is useful for tracking cars that are way back. I'd never turn right without a couple of actual looks behind though.

I've often wondered how effective these are

Well seeing as this is now drifting wildly, I should probably admit to the point of it. In other recent threads there's been an implication that as cyclists we should be bothered by speeding drivers. Just wanted to see if others were like me and couldn't care one little bit what speed the drivers are doing as long as they give me enough room. Seems I'm not alone – from what I can work out, most or all of those who did cite speed were only bothered by it if the driver was also too close.