Zone 2 training – worth it?

Yes, I know there are loads of threads about this! I have read them all. This only lead to more questions!

Firstly I am looking to increase fitness over winter rather than letting it tail off as normally happens. I will still be commuting by bike every week day (8 miles mainly off road) but I don’t really enjoy MTBing or road riding at this time of year so probably won’t be doing much of either of those. I can see myself doing a Z2 ride every weekend though as we have a pretty good network of cycle paths around here which are perfect for a gentle bimble.

Secondly I was aware over spring/summer of quite a few occasions where I would feel rough/ill the day after a long weekend ride. I’ve put this down to the cumulative effect of riding too hard too often on the commute. So I’m actually happy to now do most of my commutes at Z1-2 pace even if the only benefit is not to knacker me out generally (& specifically so the commute doesn’t detract from any “proper” workouts I do).

But is there an actual fitness benefit to doing lots of Z2 training (including longer rides of 3hrs say)? I bought the Joe Friel Heart Rate Training book off the Kindle store over the weekend as I knew he was quite big on this & base training. I had lots of questions about this though and googling to find answers actually led to more questions as I now discover that Z2 base training is not even universally accepted as a good idea (including by our former forum chum iDave)!

The basic consensus (if there is one) seems to be that it might help you, but only if you have the time to do it – and anyway there are probably better/more time efficient training methods. Seeing as I need to ride to/from work every day anyway (which takes around 50mins in Z2) am I just as well sticking to that (& possibly extending 1 or 2 commutes slightly to say 90mins) as well as weekend 3hr ride?

Or am I better off just doing gentle commutes but concentrating on interval sessions to increase fitness? I should mention I’m totally sold on the “less is more” philosophy for training as I use this very effectively in the gym (I lift 2 or 3 times per week) however Joe Friel seems pretty sure on the effectiveness of lots of Z1-2 work both for recovery purposes and improving endurance.

When is the best time to start introducing intervals and what should I be doing? Ideally I’d like to incorporate these into my commute home in the evening although I do have a turbo (which I rarely use at the moment).

My training goals are pretty basic; I don’t race currently although I have a few mates who do crits and 10M TTs on the road and wouldn’t mind having a crack at those next year but basically just want to enjoy my recreational riding more which means getting fitter/faster for 2-3 hour MTB & road rides which I tend to do 2-4 times per week in the Spring/Summer/early Autumn.

but basically just want to enjoy my recreational riding more

Stop reading books then 🙂

This thread may be of interest.

Z2 is also a very sociable pace!

I got bored part way through your post, but in your case I’d say no. If you have limited time then spending hours in Z2 isn’t that effective, it just means you spend your limited training time riding slowly. Sweet spot training would be a much more efficient use of time, and will increase your FTP.

I got bored part way through your post,

Sorry! Appreciate that it was long, I tried to pare it down a bit but it all seemed relevant! I have not heard of “sweet spot training” before so will look into that, thanks.

@mrblobby: Yes that’s one of the threads I was reading. I couldn’t really draw any conclusions from it though. Was not quite sure what to make of the link “Base: A new definition” which you commented on as it is 9 years old and I know “current thinking” changes quite often! It seemed to imply that hard intervals were better but still didn’t really give me to clue as to exactly what I should be doing!

I got bored part way through your post, but in your case I’d say no. If you have limited time then spending hours in Z2 isn’t that effective, it just means you spend your limited training time riding slowly. Sweet spot training would be a much more efficient use of time, and will increase your FTP.

That’s what I’ve been lead to believe as well.
Rather than spending hours out riding in Z2 to build up some base miles, go for 2×20 intervals on road or a turbo at about 95% FTP and it should have similar benefits.
This may or may not be wrong though, I’m no expert when it comes to training!

This is quite interesting to me. I’ve been commuting for a few years by bike now, and use that mainly as my training for general fitness.

It’s a 30km round trip, and in the past i’ve just gone with the mentality of ‘go as fast as you can’. It’s about 35 mins each way, with a decent climb and a couple of short sharp others, but with this approach, from about mid week onwards, my legs were smashed.

I’ve often wondered if there is any way I can apply some structure to it, but never really bothered. Maybe i’ll try for a slower general pace and do some random intervals on the way there and back 🙂

The one concerted attempt I made at training, I found that doing 2×20 on the turbo increaced my ability to do 2×20 on the turbo. Without longer ‘training’ rides I found my energy levels crashed after an hour’s riding, and I had no extra on top of that pace!

Whereas going out for a 90min spin in the evening, even at a nominal zone 2-3 pace had enough variaiton in it that I was doing at least some work on a range of different intensities.

If “Z2” is just bumbling along then you probably do need to do more of it as it suggests that you’re not particularly efficient.

2×20 is an excellent work out leading up to specific events or to build & maintain race paced speed during the “season”, but I wouldn’t want to be doing it week in, week out.

I think Weeksy’s advice is best 🙂

http://www.hunterallenpowerblog.com/2010/12/next-level.html

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/fitness/training/detraining-the-truth-about-losing-fitness-22330

I’d recommend reading the cyclist training bible by friel. It is mainly focused on building an efficient and effective annual training plan based around what your goals are.

I would say to maintain fitness over winter your daily commute can take the place of Z2 base rides. If you’ve been doing this commute a while you’ve probably got all the base fitness you need.

To build on your base fitness take a look at doing 2×20 intervals or perhaps give sufferfest a go during the really bad weather.

The one concerted attempt I made at training, I found that doing 2×20 on the turbo increaced my ability to do 2×20 on the turbo. Without longer ‘training’ rides I found my energy levels crashed after an hour’s riding, and I had no extra on top of that pace!

I think the point is you do them as part of a 3 hour ride – so you do your Z2 ride, but then you do 2 (or 3) 20 minute efforts in the middle. You’re not aiming to go flat out after all, it’s quite a sustainable pace.

I did a lot of that in the winter before I got to be my fastest, so reckon it works! Certainly plan to do it this year!

I would say to maintain fitness over winter your daily commute can take the place of Z2 base rides. If you’ve been doing this commute a while you’ve probably got all the base fitness you need.

This was something I was wondering about. How short can an easy “base” ride be and still be effective? Do they always have to be longer rides? I think I probably do have a reasonable base despite never having done any structured training. I say the Z2 riding I’ve been doing is “bimbling” but have been hitting 15-16 mph given a flat road and favourable conditions. Hills are a different story though of course!

@dirtyrider: thanks for the links, will give those a read.

I think the point is you do them as part of a 3 hour ride – so you do your Z2 ride, but then you do 2 (or 3) 20 minute efforts in the middle. You’re not aiming to go flat out after all, it’s quite a sustainable pace.

Yeah this is something I’ve read about a few times

Whereas going out for a 90min spin in the evening, even at a nominal zone 2-3 pace had enough variaiton in it that I was doing at least some work on a range of different intensities.

Isn’t that just a lack of variety in your turbo work though? No reason why you can’t include a range of intensities in your turbo sessions. Though I do agree that if you want to be good at riding outdoors you need to do some riding outdoors!

Whatever you do, the most important part to any training schedule is consistency.
Talking about it on an internet forum won’t have any (positive) impact on your fitness. Make a plan. Follow it. Read some stuff around training and specifics as you learn more about your fitness and then adapt and change your plan.

You’ll hear lots of different approaches and methods. Only way to really work out if they are best for you is to try them out over a sustained period and try to weigh up the pro’s and cons yourself.

One other thing – Z2 is not a bimble. It should be pretty hard, maybe not on your CV system and maybe not in the first hour, but as the time ticks on your wee legs should definitely be feeling pretty tired and not really up for “racing for 30’s”

One other thing – Z2 is not a bimble. It should be pretty hard, maybe not on your CV system and maybe not in the first hour, but as the time ticks on your wee legs should definitely be feeling pretty tired and not really up for “racing for 30’s”

Well Z2 for 50mins on my commute feels like a bimble but I did a 3.5hr Z2 ride on Saturday and to be fair I was tired afterwards. Hence me wondering, what is the minimum duration for a Z2 ride to be effective?

Only way to really work out if they are best for you is to try them out over a sustained period and try to weigh up the pro’s and cons yourself.

Yeah I thought this would probably be the case 🙂 I will take all the info on board and formulate a plan then!

apart from your commuting what other riding are you doing consistently?

When the weather’s a bit nicer normally 2-4 2-3hr MTB/road rides per week depending on how I feel. At the moment probably just 1 extra easy-paced 2-3hr ride at the weekend. Nothing consistent really!

with the amount of riding you’re doing you should in theory be very very fit/fast.

I’m not unfit or slow but I know I could be fitter since at the moment I just ride how I want without giving much thought to training or recovery.

To be honest I think maybe the biggest change I could make is taking the commute a lot easier so that I don’t get so fatigued from that. Also I don’t do anywhere as much recreational riding over the winter so would love to maintain or ideally improve fitness ready for the spring.

Isn’t that just a lack of variety in your turbo work though? No reason why you can’t include a range of intensities in your turbo sessions. Though I do agree that if you want to be good at riding outdoors you need to do some riding outdoors!

That’s what I did, swaped 2x 20 for just doing the 20min test program on trainerroad at 95% and adding an 8-10min interval at FTP to the end if I wasn’t dead. Still felt like I was tireing too quickly on the road but it might just have been gettign better at judgeing RPE so I was used to riding at an RPE on the turbo for an hour and matched that on the road.

Maybe there are different 2×20 definitions out there?

The 2×20 that I use is at highest effort that I can sustain for both 20 min efforts (ie consistent) with 5 min rest in between. Works great on the turbo because you can keep the effort consistent. No way could I slot this into the middle of a 3 hr ride.

‘Classic’ 2x20s are done at threshold, so you’d struggle to do a whole lot of other meaningful work in the same session. That’s what they’re designed for, getting in some top-quality effort but not so much that you can’t recover and do something the next day.

Maybe there are different 2×20 definitions out there?

Lots of different definitions of threshold. Best use things like 20MP (the most power you can manage for 20 minutes) or 60MP (max 60 min effort.) These are also roughly 10 and 25 mile TT power. People tend to use FTP (functional threshold power) as well, which is the same as 60MP. Most people tend to do 2×20 at FTP.

There’s also a few other “thresholds” knocking about but most of these need a lab in order to determine a value.

just checking, when you’re doing your ‘Z2’ rides, you are actually do all of it in zone 2, not averaging z2?

e.g. upping the pace on the flats/ and not taking a breather ever?

its actually quite a workout, or as you get fitter you’re caning it along at quite a pace on the flats. would certainly be dangerous to do it on my commmute.

Traditional thinking is all in z2. If you happen to stray into z3 you may as well abandon the session and go home as you’ll be told you’ll have wasted your time 😉

… though again there are different schools of thought as to what z2 constitutes.

2 is to do with burning fat, rather than carbs. Dr Hutch explains it in his book Faster, very well, but I’ll be damned if I can remember the exact reasoning behinds it…

you can recreate Z2 riding with harder rides, on the limit of bonking, just fueling on proteins…

again, damned if I understood why or how, probably need to reread that chapter 🙂

EDIT: i found a section of the book:

At a perfectly consistent moderate pace, the longer you ride for the greater proportion of energy comes from fats. This was established in 1934 in one of the all time classic exercise physiology experiments. It involved monitoring carbohydrates and fat use over a six-hour exercise period. Initially 20% of the energy was from fat. Over the course of six hours of continuous cycling at exactly the same intensity it increased to 80%.

Unfortunately this clawback doesn’t help as much as you would hope. Fat use goes up, yes, but mainly because a lot of the carbohydrates store has been used. The bottom line is that the proportion of carbohydrate being used at any point is related to how much is available. When the hammer goes down in the last couple of hours of a long race there is still every chance that the carbohydrate tank will be empty.

In the end despite the vast reservoir of fat available to all of us, it’s still carbohydrate that is the key.

…As blood glucose levels fall you recede back to an increasing reliance on the slow burning fat. The ‘bangs’ only come when you try to ignore this, and completely over-commit to an unsustainable pace. It’s not a coincidence that big bangs rarely happen to people training on their own – part of this scenario is normally other stronger riders, pushing you beyond what you can really do. I’d say falling for it is a rookie error if it wasn’t for the fact I did exactly the same thing in the next 12-hour I rode.

It certainly doesn’t help that even the process that metabolises fat to release energy is powered by carbohydrates: fat burn in a carbohydrate flame. Your body can make glucose from protein, and when you get to the furthest edge of carbohydrate exhaustion it will do more and more of this to keep the fact flame burning. This is bad enough in the race but if you dig yourself a hole like this in training is a disaster, since you be tearing down the very muscle that you’re supposed to be nurturing.

All of this rests on the basic metabolic injustice that while you can convert carbohydrate into fat, and protein into fat, and even protein into carbohydrate, you can’t convert fat into carbohydrate.

The sole item of good carbohydrate news is that you can put it back fairly easily. Its availability is very closely related to it intake – and experience rider keeps it coming, in a nice constant stream. You can absorb about 60 – 80 g of carbohydrates and hour. Sadly this number isn’t amenable to being trained, it’s pretty much fixed and it’s more or less universal

…It doesn’t take a Nobel Prize winning physiologist to spot that if you can find a way to use more fat, you’ll use less carbohydrates. Endurance training increases the amount of fat used at any given sub-maximal that level – in fact it can more than double it.

This is why professional bike riders spend their winters packing in the long rides. Five, six, seven hours of grinding, tapping, rolling or trundling, depending on the outlook of the ride in question. Usually done from home even by the stars because the off-season is really the only chance an elite rider gets to stay in one place for more than a few nights, and to see their family. For riders based in northern Europe that often means being on a bike for almost all the hours of winter daylight. The long rides shift the rider firmly into the zone where fat burning is the main fuel source, and the muscles and enzymes adapt to it

It’s easy to assume that the long rides aren’t necessary – it’s not all that hard to get a lot of the aerobic adaptations in the oxygen moving system from relatively short training sessions. But if you a pro who has to race for five or six hours a day why they still, very traditionally, garden grind out the miles, their answer is simply that this is how they stop themselves from falling apart at the end of a long events.

This doesn’t mean that people like me haven’t gone looking for shortcuts. I’m particularly keen to find one for two reasons I’ve never been great at the fat burning game and these days, as I retreat from full-time riding, I just don’t have the time to spare. The idea of the fasted ride is an old one – get up skip breakfast, put plain water in your bottle, and crank out three or four hours. You try to do it at a place that doesn’t involve bonking, but if you are a powerful rider with a high-energy turnover, you’ll fail quite a lot of the time. This does help with the fat burning adaptation because, as with the pros long rides, you’re in fat burning territory for quite a long time. The problem is that you’re quite probably in protein-burning, eating-your-own-legs territory as well. The same dangers apply to all the alternative strategy of stringing together several days of long rides and little carbohydrate.

The current attempt to square this circle is to fuel the three or – four – hour ride using a mix of protein and a small amount of carbohydrate, and maybe some coconut oil in attempt to keep yourself in an anabolic state (building muscle) rather than a catabolic one (tearing it down) while keeping carbohydrate availability low. The protein hopefully means that even if your body starts to demand significant amounts of that as a fuel, at least it’s not using muscle. The carbohydrate and the coconut oil should stave off the bonk-royale. It’s not a pleasant session you feel like you’re hovering on the edge of the abyss for most of it. At least it seems to sort of work, if the lab scores are anything to go by, but it is not as good as the proper long stuff.

I did wonder having read that a while back whether a hard bit of riding to reduce the carb store followed by a couple of hours of easy riding would have a similar effect?

Though it was a bit of an academic thought as I don’t race with anywhere near the duration or frequency to necessitate that sort of z2 work.

@warton: that is the “classical” style of Z2/fat burning as I understand it but a) aren’t some people moving away from that way of thinking now and b) as mrblobby says most people don’t ride like the pros so don’t need to train like them. I have no need to ride at pace for 5-6 hours and if I did I certainly wouldn’t be doing it again the next day!

From what I’ve read Z2 rides should be around 2hours+.

Simplistically, short rides/sessions should be high intensity and longer rides should be low (i.e. Z2) intensity.

I find it needs a bit of concentration to maintain (upper) Z2 on the open road, not physically but when you’re on the flat you need to be going quite fast to keep your heart rate up.

And don’t forget rest days are beneficial too.

I do Z2 over winter and find that for me it works. I’d be knackered if I spent 12 months hammering it.

Fine to creep up occasionally in to Z3 if you hit a hill etc (Joe told me this directly) as can be hard keeping it down for the whole 3+ hrs due to the terrain.

Jase, what duration/frequency for your Z2 rides over winter? Also do you eat anything during your longer Z2 rides?

And don’t forget rest days are beneficial too.

Yes, I’m sure this is one area I’ve neglected to my detriment in the past. I found an interesting Cycling Weekly article that argued daily commuting is actually not ideal for fitness (especially if you hammer it every day!) due to lack of rest days. I plan on taking one full day off most weekends and doing the majority of my commute rides at a very gentle Z1-2 so hopefully will not suffer from overtraining as I have done in the past.

I start off at about 2 hrs and then increase it each week. Because of the lack of light only do them at weekends. If I ride in mid week it would be an easy session of no more than an hour e.g. one of the speed sessions detailed in Joe’s books.

Yes do eat/drink on the longer rides.

I tweeted Joe Friel the other day to ask if any fundementals had changed since he wrote his MTB Bible as I have just written a plan from it.

The response I got was “Principles have stayed same. Details have expanded with concepts such as polarized training. joefrielsblog.com”

Polarised training is just a new term for the old saying about going really slow when you need to go slow and then really hit the right zones properly when you ramp up the intensity.

@Weeksy- How many times do we need to mention that volume alone doesn’t make you fast. If you go hard every day, you will plateau, stagnate or even lose fitness. A good strong base is essential, then you can over-reach followed by rest to bring about the improvement.

I did my first zone 2 ride the other day and I was surprised how hard I had to concentrate to stay in the correct range. It required near constant alterations to my cadence/gear/speed.

I did my first zone 2 ride the other day and I was surprised how hard I had to concentrate to stay in the correct range. It required near constant alterations to my cadence/gear/speed.

Yeah same. When on the flat in favourable conditions I could be zipping along at 15-16mph, but then there’d be a bit of wind or a slight uphill for example and I’d have to slow right down. There were also a few hills I was climbing at 30rpm in the lowest gear (but at least I didn’t have to get off and walk!) In contrast I had to pedal surprisingly hard downhill to keep HR up otherwise it would drop very quickly (which is a good sign I guess).

A good strong base is essential,

I don’t think anyone would argue with this. However there’s loads of differing ideas out there as to what constitutes a base and how you build. I think you just pick what best suits you, your goals, and your constraints. May be hours of z2. May be not.

did my first zone 2 ride the other day and I was surprised how hard I had to concentrate to stay in the correct range. It required near constant alterations to my cadence/gear/speed.

Really? What were you doing for your recovery rides? Are they not mostly easy z1/z2 rides?

Really? What were you doing for your recovery rides? Are they not mostly easy z1/z2 rides?

To be honest, I’m still in my preparation weeks at the moment so I’m just trying out a few of the workouts from the menu to see how they feel etc.
Friel recovery is supposed to be Zone 1 no? If what I’ve read about Polarisation actually made sense then by drifting up into Zone 2 (which could be HR as high as 154 for me) then you’re compromising that weeks training as recovery won’t be acomplished as completely?

Up until now, for me, recovery has been a day off. Once I get stuck into the plan, active recovery will be needed to help hit the weekly hours and it will be strictly <142 bpm.

I found the same as zilog above, that you would get all set up at say 148bpm and then the road would go slightly downhill and next time I look, I’m doing 115bpm. I found the upwind return leg much easier to stay consistent.

I haven’t read the thread, but – yes, long Z2 does work pretty well, but it takes ages and is very dull.

There may be shortcuts depending on who you believe 🙂