Young babies on bikes

Yes – but all your argument is based around very unlikely scenarios.

You might get hit by a meteorite you know.

Not when it’s below the windscreen of a truck or pickup though – this is my main concern.

But it isn’t. The bright red flag is taller than you on the bike. And assuming your trailer doesn’t tow itself, you are still there, so you are exactly as tall as you are on a bike.

And as an experienced cyclist you must be aware that some drivers do not see you. I suspect that this is SOMEWHAT more likely with a trailer,

You are just a way larger and more visible object which is wider, taller and brighter than a bike on its own, there is no way that this makes it less likely for you to be spotted by drivers. After a few hundred miles of trailer riding on the road I’m pretty certain I’m right too.

Damo – rates per mile is around 12 times higher.

that is not the same as

50 times more child cyclist deaths than there are deaths to child car occupants?

which is clearly nonsense. FAr more children die in cars than on bikes

cycling is not a dangerous sport and the stats back that up.

Really? Try telling that to Wouter Weylandt’s family, team-mates and friends.

Sorry TJ, I normally see sense in the majority of your posts, but I’m struggling with you on this one. Frankly I don’t care what the stats say. Even if they said NO ONE has EVER hurt or killed themselves on a cycle, I would take one look at a busy main road with fools hammering along in their metal boxes at 80mph and decide not to take my kids on it on my bike.

I don’t think the flag is enough, personally. Maybe I am being over cautious. But it’s the low down position that is the real worry.

Far more kids are in cars than in trailers so the deaths are skewed by that.

If something is lower down it’s less likely to be seen/noticed then something at eye level.

Whether scenarios are unlikely or not they can still be entered into risk assessments. For some people even a 1% chance of something happening is too high of a risk; but for others they do not see that as something to be considered.

Everyone’s experiences are different; they have lived different lives thus come to different conclusions about what is important to them.

We are not all driving/riding the exact same roads as such we are all making judgements according to our individual circumstances.

We are not all driving/riding the exact same roads as such we are all making judgements according to our individual circumstances

+1

still tortoise – everything has risk. Hundreds of people a year die in cars, dozens on bikes. Bikes are not inherently unsafe. One of the ways of seeing this is that cyclists on average live longer than car divers because the health benefits of cycling increase average lifespans more than the risk decrese tham.

Of course people get killed doing allsorts of things but compared to say hillwalking or horse riding cycling is safer.

There are far fewer cycling casualties that you would think from the hysteria.

Some discussion here
http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1026.html

Risk relative to cycling based on fatality rates per participant (UK)

Relative risk per participant
Less safe Airsports 450
Climbing 137
Motor sports 81
Fishing 41
Horse riding 29
Swimming 7.0
Athletics 5.7
Football 4.9
Tennis 4.2
Cycling 1.0
Safer Golf 0.83
Rambling 0.06

Figures relate to 1986 and are derived from OPAS Monitors from the Office of Population Censuses and Surveys, UK.
The number of fatalities are taken from Coroner’s Court records and information on participation rates from the General Household Survey.

Thanks Mrsgrips, much more succinct than what I said 🙂

TJ – you are funny, I give you referenced information and you dismiss and quote something else without a reference.

Here is the abstract verbatim.

Results
Death rates per head of population have declined for
child pedestrians, cyclists and car occupants but pedestrian
death rates remain higher (0.55 deaths/100 000 children; 95%
con?dence interval [CI] 0.42 to 0.72 deaths) than those for car
occupants (0.34 deaths; 95% CI 0.23 to 0.48 deaths) and
cyclists (0.16 deaths; 95% CI 0.09 to 0.27 deaths). Since 1985,
the average distance children travelled as a car occupant has
increased by 70%; the average distance walked has declined by
19%; and the average distance cycled has declined by 58%.
Taking into account distance travelled, there are about 50 times
more child cyclist deaths (0.55 deaths/10 million passenger
miles; 0.32 to 0.89) and nearly 30 times more child pedestrian
deaths (0.27 deaths; 0.20 to 0.35) than there are deaths to child
car occupants (0.01 deaths; 0.007 to 0.014). In 2003, children
from families without access to a vehicle walked twice the
distance walked by children in families with access to two or
more vehicles.

Being a child on a bike is more dangerous than being a child in a car.

I’m not convinced that is right. Something wider is much easier to see than something narrow, something out of the ordinary (and bright green and covered in reflective gubbins) is much easier to see than something normal like a bike, plus the bright pink flag at higher than head level probably helps too.
In my experience (hundreds of miles now) of riding on the road with a bike trailer, it is absolutely completely blindingly obvious that you are much more likely to be seen and people will be much more careful around you if you are a bike + child trailer, than if you are just a person on a bike.
Joe

+1

My trailer is the same hight as my saddle. It’s not that much wider then a bike taken as a whole it certainly fits through gaps that the bars on my mtb do.
If a driver can’t spot the trailer they aren’t going to see me that’s for sure as my rear silhouette is pretty small.
I have managed to tip mine over once (forgot it was there as I went round a roundabout). The roll cage did it’s job along with the seat belts/straps.

TJ, you must have mis-read my last post. The stats mean nothing to me. My judgement comes from my own experience and not a load of numbers cobbled together by a bunch of statisticians with an agenda.

My trailer is the same hight as my saddle.

Mine is much lower down than my brightly/lightly coloured torso. Around car bumper/lorry wheel height.

TJ, you must have mis-read my last post. The stats mean nothing to me. My judgement comes from my own experience and not a load of numbers cobbled together by a bunch of statisticians with an agenda

🙂

It’s turtles all the way down!!

Damo – however that is not what you claimed. You claimed

50 times more child cyclist deaths than there are deaths to child car occupants

? Clealry that is not true

Several points to consider. That is about child cyclists not experienced adults taking children on bikes. adults are 12 times the risk of death per mile travelled similar risk per comparable journey per hour

Secondly you have to compare journeys and amount of distance and so on. On comparable journeys the risk differential is les

TJ – hands up, when writing that I should have qualified it was per mile travelled as I’d mentioned in the previous para.

Having said that you really cannot argue now that a mile on a bike is as safe as a mile in a car.

No I wouldn’t. However per hour per comparable journey its a very similar level of risk and is a very low level.

IE if you remove motorway journeys the car gets comparatively more risky and in an hour you travel less distance on a bike.

Not much point comparing the two is there? Kids make totally different use of bikes and cars. Apples and Oranges.

If you want to be given a wide berth, trundle around on this:

[/url]
Long vehicle Mk II[/url] by MikeDavis[/url], on Flickr

Adding the trailer makes cars sufficiently reluctant to pass that a queue sometimes forms.

As for the rest of it, everyone chooses what they’re happy with. I think some people are excessively paranoid and some are ludicrously laissez-faire, and I doubt my definitions correspond with everyone else’s. A blanket “not on any roads ever” choice seems weird to me, as frankly does having “car” as the default transport option. But again, that’s me 🙂

Mike_D – what the hell are you wearing helmets for, do you not know the stats, H&S gone mad.

molgrips – Member
My trailer is the same hight as my saddle.
Mine is much lower down than my brightly/lightly coloured torso. Around car bumper/lorry wheel height.

But you are still there. Is not like you are hiding behind the trailer. You are more visible with it.
Car bumpers are a lot lower then lorry wheel hight.
By the time you can’t be seen as it’s to low then it’s to late any way.
Does this mean that cars like a lotus is dangerous to be in as it’s lower than the bottom of the windows on my car.

Love it Mike 🙂

What age did you get the little uns on there?

Does this mean that cars like a lotus is dangerous to be in as it’s lower than the bottom of the windows on my car.

They are certainly more dangerous to be in than a car that sits higher in the road, but now I’m as guilty of going off-topic as some others 😆

Mike_D – what the hell are you wearing helmets for, do you not know the stats, H&S gone mad.

🙂

What age did you get the little uns on there?

We’ve only had it a few months. Stoker’s five, front passenger was not quite two but he’d been using that seat for a little while already. And a Hamax seat or trailer before that. We took him out once in his car seat in the trailer at what must have been about four months but it all seemed a bit joggly. He stayed asleep the whole time so it presumably wasn’t uncomfortable, but we weren’t wildly keen and it was a faff to secure the seat.

The tandem’s actually proving rather brilliant for getting them (well, her mainly) used to riding on roads – positioning, looking, signalling and all that. Generally we get three arms going out before a turn 🙂 Also she took to the gears on her new bike immediately, having got the idea from riding the tandem.

We were fortunately in Canada whilst pregnant

The tandem’s actually proving rather brilliant for getting them (well, her mainly) used to riding on roads

Brilliant idea

We were fortunately in Canada whilst pregnant

You know pregnant is a euphemism anyway? So don’t get snippy about its usage 🙂

Lethal

Irresponsible

certain death

Call social services

The child WILL die

Ok I was bored

deliberate trolling? from uncle teej? i notice you didnt include a picture of my gaffa tape idea…. is this cos you agree with me that statistics prove my idea to be the safest?

We need some peer review to be sure phil.

Anyone got a child or two spare we can borrow?

Dr J

Given the very very long road that we travelled to get pregnant I feel very strongly about it being we and not just Mrs B herself that was pregnant.

But hey, thanks for your contribution.

Anyhow, back on track. Mike D, that tandem is outstanding I salute you. I have a vision of something like that coming into our lives at some point in the future.

If you are really worried about your children dying prematurly get them on a bike ASAP. A doctor in the Irish medical times demonstrated that not cycling would kill you quicker than cycling (even if you cycle without a helmet). Your kids will die of heart disease, bowel cancer or some other disease caused by sitting on your butt all day if they don’t get into the habit of riding a bike.

Edukator – indeed its true – cyclist live longer than non cyclists because the increased risk of death from cycling is less than the increased risk of death form inactivity

hah look at those selfish ****, some people

Brilliant idea

I wouldn’t claim the “road sense” thing as any sort of an idea, it just occurred to me that they were learning something from it. Happy side effect 🙂

Beamers: Do it, they’re ace 🙂

cyclist live longer than non cyclists because the increased risk of death from cycling is less than the increased risk of death form inactivity

I’m sure you’ve rolled this out before and I’ve resisted the temptation to bite, but I can’t resist any more. This is meaningless. Have you paraphrased it and missed something out? What is suggests is that all non-cyclists are inactive, which even you must concede is a ridiculous assumption that makes a mockery of the “conclusion”…

…or is this just a long-standing troll of yours?

No – Its distilled from mortality stats. cyclists live longer than non cyclists. The inference is the protection that cycling gives you from diseases of inactivity is greater than the risks of cycling. Its very simple. It does not suggest what you say at all.

Al the data is out there if you want to see it.

for example

All-Cause Mortality Associated With Physical Activity During Leisure Time, Work, Sports, and Cycling to Work
http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/160/11/1621

Bicycling to work decreased risk of mortality in approximately 40% after multivariate adjustment, including leisure time physical activity.

Conclusions
Leisure time physical activity was inversely associated with all-cause mortality in both men and women in all age groups. Benefit was found from moderate leisure time physical activity, with further benefit from sports activity and bicycling as transportation.

Damo – however that is not what you claimed. You claimed

50 times more child cyclist deaths than there are deaths to child car occupants

TJ, surely a bright fella like you would know that this only makes sense when you consider in the terms Damo damonstrated

Your kids will die of heart disease, bowel cancer or some other disease caused by sitting on your butt all day if they don’t get into the habit of riding a bike

Jesus. Staying off busy roads when your kids are in a trailer is NOT going to lead to a life of inactivity and premature death.

For Christ’s sake people LISTEN TO YOURSELVES! YOU’RE BEING UTTERLY IDIOTIC!