Young babies on bikes

No at risk of being hit by a motorised vehicle while attached to a pushbike on the road.

And how big is that risk? I travel slower with the trailer (its quite heavy and I’m unfit) and my own experience (and others anecdotal evidence) is that cars give you a wider berth. Is it actually safer for me to take the trailer than go on my own without it?

Look I don’t really give a shit about your kids, I find it odd that you don’t seem to though.

I find it odd that despite your claimed apathy towards my children you feel it necessary to judge me for having made a balanced, informed and educated assessment of risk.

At what age do you think I should involve the kids in cycling on the road? baby in trailer? toddler in rear seat? preschool on tag-a-long? primary school on their own bike supervised? teenager unsupervised? At what point on that progression does it become “OK” for me to expose my children to the risk… …I’d actually suggest the risk of injury or fatality increases as they get older and a dead child is devastating whether they are 14 yrs or 14 months.

Baby bjorn for off road followed by Rhode gear taxi at about 6mo. Graduated to kiddyback tandem at three. Was riding on the road at about the same age with me behind. Some grief from the mother, a LOT more from the mother-in-law!

I’d probably go with a trailer now. Folding them is a bit of a pfaff though.

I don’t recall seeing an epidemic of trailer fatalities. But don’t leave them shut inside in direct sunlight based on recent Italian media reports.

I am working on a project in Uruguay – and some of the baby balancing on mopeds is quite scary – have seen baby balanced on one knee, and riding one handed. Pillion passenger carrying baby in their arms, whilst drinking mate (ita kinds like coffee but through a straw). Current balancing record is 2 adults and 2 kids on one small moped.

But this is generally in town where average speed is well under 20 mph……

Surely the issue is not the cyclist (with or without baby/trailer/tagalong) its the motorist not respecting other road users particularly vulnerable ones……….

So – possibly papoose/sling that supports her head – more googling required…!

You must be mental. No protection for the child. Ask a paediatric doctor and see what the response is.

TJ – you really are out of your comfort zone with a discussion on cars and kids. As adults, most of us take responsibility for our own safety and are pretty good about it. If nobody else in the world was included in our personal risk assessments, the bike / car arguement might be more balanced. Unfortunately, we take ‘everyone else’ into account. It isn’t our own actions we think about when looking at the safety of our children – it is everyone elses. Therefore, putting my child into a car seat designed for the task and securing that in a metal box means my child is at less risk from the actions of others on the road than on a trailer.

Randomjeremy I will bite. My daughter goes in the trailer on the road because I care about her enough to want to show her the outdoors and not just shove her in the car. How is she in anymore danger than when she is in the push chair walking on the road side?

Does your car not have windows?

BTW cars drive on the roads not pavements.

But I live in the countryside where roads do not have pavements alongside

I’d walk then facing the traffic rather than risk getting rear ended by a speeding driver on the phone on a blind corner!

Where i ride their are no blind corners so keep trying to prove me wrong and irresponsible.

I stand corrected, didn’t realise you were making Roman style journeys with no blind corners.

I find it completely amazing peoples attitude to risk. Would you put kids in a car?

Look, stop being silly. There’s clearly a massive difference between putting your kid INSIDE a car where they’re protected by lots of metal, and towing them behind a bike where they’re not. CLEARLY.

The issue I have is that in a trailer they are very low down, which could make them hard to see, and that if they were hit they could get crushed under the wheels particularly of a lorry. All it takes is one driver not to be concentrating or looking where they are going, and that’s not too hard to imagine.

I just imagine how I’d feel if I had to pick my toddler’s remains out of the wheelarch of a bus and that stops me from doing this.

And I’m not unreasonably risk averse because I cycle all over the place and my kid will too WHEN SHE’S OLD ENOUGH.

Oh and I’d also think twice about pushing a pushchair down a narrow road without pavements.

It’s a funny argument re rural roads (countryside) also since half of all cyclist fatalities occur on them – despite most journeys being urban.

I sh1t myself sometimes on road rides in the country, no way I’d want my daughter on the back!

Agreed damo – many are tight and windy. There are one or two that I really don’t want to ride on because they are so blind.

FWIW the Beamlet was doing 35mph plus (downhill on smooth roads devoid of traffic) from about 3 months onwards

You do know they’re not supposed to go over 15mph (I’ve always made a point of trying to average more than that )?

I didn’t know that.

I’m sure Mrs B would have spotted that in the instruction manual. She read it after I had been out and about with the beamlet a few times between 1 and 3 months. She read the namby pamby bottom covering guidance that nippers under 12 months shouldn’t be pulled behind the bike. There was a 9 month gap chariot excursions. I’m sure if she had read the speed limitation bit she would be reminding me (constantly) to slow down.

[middle class one-upmanship] I’m pretty sure that all of this chariot activity hasn’t affected the Beamlet. I came home from work yesterday to find her reciting the alphabet. She’s just turned 2.[/middle class one-upmanship]

I cycle all over the place and my kid will too WHEN SHE’S OLD ENOUGH

Which will be when? At what point does she become old enough not to be vulnerable to a driver not concentrating?

She’s old enough when her mother says she’s old enough…and when she’s been drilled to be a defensive user of the road like all cyclists should be…

You boys are hilarious. It always breaks down the same way.
Walk away.
It’s obvious you’re not going to change each others minds and y’all just getting worked up about it… is this some sort of way to replace the physical fighting/exercise to show ‘machismo’ which you cannot do any longer because you’re not in a tribal society?

She’ll have to be quite grown up to ride on roads I consider dangerous on her own.

We’re all vulnerable to drivers not concentrating. However, those being towed at ground level further out than and behind a cyclist are MORE vulnerable, in my opinion.

I’m pretty sure that all of this chariot activity hasn’t affected the Beamlet. I came home from work yesterday to find her reciting the alphabet. She’s just turned 2

Aww, never mind, there’s still time to catch up.

Look, stop being silly. There’s clearly a massive difference between putting your kid INSIDE a car where they’re protected by lots of metal, and towing them behind a bike where they’re not. CLEARLY.

Yes you are right – speeds are much higher so despite the extra protection the risks are high. its not a rational position molgrips

TJ – you really are out of your comfort zone with a discussion on cars and kids. As adults, most of us take responsibility for our own safety and are pretty good about it. If nobody else in the world was included in our personal risk assessments, the bike / car argument might be more balanced.

No I am just enjoying pointing out the lack of rationality of many peoples position as regards to the risks of bikes.

To take babies on bikes is the norm in the rest of Europe and its perfectly safe to do so. Risks are low due to the low risk of crashing and the low speeds involved.

its completely ridiculous to think a car at 80 mph is safe and a bike at 15 mph is not.

mrsgrips – Member

You boys are hilarious. It always breaks down the same way.
Walk away.
It’s obvious you’re not going to change each others minds and y’all just getting worked up about it… is this some sort of way to replace the physical fighting/exercise to show ‘machismo’ which you cannot do any longer because you’re not in a tribal society?

Well said Mrs Grips

Oh and I’d also think twice about pushing a pushchair down a narrow road without pavements.

How do you ever get out of the house?

Does your car not have windows?

I don’t know about your car seat, but in our maxi cosi baby seat, the poor thing can see next to nothing out of the window.

As for the risk of the bike trailer, my view is that

a)I’m convinced that the trailer isn’t inherently unsafe (in terms of shaking, rattling of the baby etc.), as the people who build and sell it are happy to sell it as recommended for cycling from 12 weeks, and I’m pretty sure they’ve taken a lot of legal & medical advice on that.

b)I’ve done probably well over 30,000 road miles on bikes & unicycles and managed to avoid any accidents. I’m happy to cycle places and don’t think it is particularly putting me at risk (and just as importantly my wife is happy that I’m safe on the roads).

c)Traffic is massively more careful and spots you way earlier (or at least responds to you way earlier) when you have a kiddy trailer. Even traffic on the other lane of the A6 slows down a little. This is just completely obvious to anyone who has ridden a trailer on the road much – at times it is almost annoying how polite people are to you, you find yourself having to hammer up hills to make way for people who have kindly stopped to let you pass.

The issue I have is that in a trailer they are very low down, which could make them hard to see,

I think that is not true at all – in practice they are a bit wider and bigger, and have the cheeky little flag on, all of which makes them much much easier to see than a bike. There is also the oddness factor – if you ride something unexpected, people see it much earlier and are much more careful overtaking you (I’m confident this is true, I’ve ridden several thousand miles on unicycles in London traffic, and you don’t half get people overtaking nice and wide then!).

Joe

No I am just enjoying pointing out the lack of rationality of many peoples position as regards to the risks of bikes

You’re trying to, but failing.

It’s obviously more dangerous to be a baby towed in a trailer than to be riding a bike. Can’t understand why you don’t accept that. When the field of view is short, something low down is surely harder to see than something at eye level? Have you never heard the phrase ‘sorry mate didn’t see you’?

its completely ridiculous to think a car at 80 mph is safe and a bike at 15 mph is not

No it’s not.

How do you ever get out of the house?

Why did you even type that? Come on now, be honest.

Molgrips -I think your attitude towards risk is ridiculous and summed up by this – and you won’t even push a pushchair if there is no pavement.

It’s obviously more dangerous to be a baby towed in a trailer than to be riding a bike.

Look, stop being silly. There’s clearly a massive difference between putting your kid INSIDE a car where they’re protected by lots of metal, and towing them behind a bike where they’re not. CLEARLY.

Neither of those is a rational position at all.

I’m convinced that the trailer isn’t inherently unsafe (in terms of shaking, rattling of the baby etc.), as the people who build and sell it are happy to sell it as recommended for cycling from 12 weeks

Are you sure you’re not confusing weeks and months, joe?

You can begin using the Croozer in Stroller or Jogger mode when your child is approximately 6 months old. Your child must be able to sit upright unassisted. To use your Croozer in cycling mode, your child must be approximately 12 months old

…and no, there is no contradiction between thinking it’s perfectly safe taking your kids out on the roads in a trailer and thinking there’s a reasonable minimum age for doing so.

and you won’t even push a pushchair if there is no pavement.

That’s not what I said.

I said I wouldn’t push a pushchair on a narrow dangerous road if there’s no pavement.

Neither of those is a rational position at all.

Do you know what ‘rational’ means?

You may disagree with my risk assesment (which would be entirely reasonable), but stop calling me irrational, cos it’s wrong.

It’s obviously more dangerous to be a baby towed in a trailer than to be riding a bike. Can’t understand why you don’t accept that. When the field of view is short, something low down is surely harder to see than something at eye level?

I’m not convinced that is right. Something wider is much easier to see than something narrow, something out of the ordinary (and bright green and covered in reflective gubbins) is much easier to see than something normal like a bike, plus the bright pink flag at higher than head level probably helps too.

In my experience (hundreds of miles now) of riding on the road with a bike trailer, it is absolutely completely blindingly obvious that you are much more likely to be seen and people will be much more careful around you if you are a bike + child trailer, than if you are just a person on a bike.

Joe

TJ it really is ridiculous you take these positions then try to dismiss everything else as irrational.

If you had a rational brain it would be fairly clear to see that based on everyday common knowledge a bike is more dangerous than a car. Just by knowing motorways are the safest roads, by knowing cycling is one of the most dangerous sports etc. Being rational you would be able to deduce that taking into account journey hours and frequency cycling is pretty much going to be more dangerous.

Dismiss all that but how do you explain that there are about 50 times more child cyclist deaths than there are deaths to child car occupants?

something out of the ordinary (and bright green and covered in reflective gubbins) is much easier to see than something normal like a bike

Not when it’s below the windscreen of a truck or pickup though – this is my main concern.

To be honest I don’t have that much of a problem with wider straight well sighted roads. However that’s not a dependable luxury where we live. I swear some people don’t see me at all on my bike and the only thing that saves me is that I happen to fit in the gap that most drivers leave between the verge and their car.

If you think cars are no safer than bikes, try this on a bike:

It’s obviously more dangerous to be a baby towed in a trailer than to be riding a bike.

It’s not at all obvious to me. In fact I’d go so far as to say it’s wrong. I’ve yet to see any stats presented about the dangers of kids in trailers – I’d bet money that even on an injuries per mile basis it’s safer in a trailer than riding a bike. Excepting getting totally flattened – in which case all bets are off, and you’d have been flattened on a bike – the trailer has a nice roll cage to protect the occupants, so has to be safer.

The only way you could possibly hold this viewpoint is because you’ve never tried riding with a trailer on the road – if you do you’d discover what the rest of us know about drivers actually spotting trailers better than cyclists.

To take babies on bikes is the norm in the rest of Europe and its perfectly safe to do so.

SOME of the rest of Europe. Never seen it in Greece, Italy, Spain or Portugal. It is the norm in countries where cycling is an accepted form of transport and has the infrastructure, culture and laws to support it. You are comparing apples and oranges in an attempt to make your point – and failing.

As far as cars and trailers go: In a suitable car seat secured in a car, a child has far more chance of surviving ANY collision with another road user at any speed than in a bike trailer. As said many times – this isn’t about 15mph or the parent – this is about the actions of OTHER road users that can’t be controlled. I will manage the risk my child is exposed to – so the car it is for more road trips than in a trailer. That is a shame, but that is life and risk management.

Are you sure you’re not confusing weeks and months, joe?

Nope, that’s the trailer just as is, not with the special baby carrying bit (see the link below for that). The baby sling is only recommended up to 10 months (our smallish baby is in it at 1 still, but only just). Personally I’m not sure I’d have been happy at 6 months running with her in the standard seat, but the baby sling is super comfy, like being in a little hammock suspended in the trailer.

http://www.burls.co.uk/shop/croozer-trailers-integral-baby-sling-p-712.html

Is this still going on?

Frankly it baffles me why we’re still bringing the cars are/aren’t safer angle into this discussion argument. I never understand why some of us need evidence – anecdotal or not – to even understand let alone accept someone else’s opinion.

I have a 2 year old and a 4 year old. I have walked with them in a Baby Bjorn since they were weeks if not days old. I wouldn’t have dreamt of cycling with them at that age. My brother on the other hand – who lives in Sweden in case anyone wants to make a tenuous connection – quite happily skied with his daughter in a Baby Bjorn. Did I think any less of him? No, because he’s an excellent skier and – being my brother – I know that he would not do it if he didn’t think it was safe. “Yes, but what if someone had run into him?” I hear some of you cry. And so it goes on ad nauseum…

My wife and I happily take our kids on the bike to nursery or down the country lanes. They are quiet routes and the drivers on them are accustomed to walkers and pushchairs so drive accordingly. We have never felt unsafe or that we were taking unacceptable risks. We go through the same parental screening process as we go through with everything to do with our children; walking in the hills, scrambling over rocks, splashing in the pool. It is based on our experience and our knowledge of the world around us.

Frankly, the implication that cycling around the streets of central London with my kids in a bike trailer is safer than taking them to see Grandma in the car on the motorway just baffles me. Conversely, I’d feel safer taking them on the lane behind our house in a trailer than taking them out in the car late at night on snowy, slippy roads. You know how I do that? Good judgement. Why don’t we try accepting that quite a few of us on here have exactly that.

Rant over

The only way you could possibly hold this viewpoint is because you’ve never tried riding with a trailer on the road – if you do you’d discover what the rest of us know about drivers actually spotting trailers better than cyclists

I have been on the road, and everyone gave me a wide berth. But in order to do that they have to see you. And as an experienced cyclist you must be aware that some drivers do not see you. I suspect that this is SOMEWHAT more likely with a trailer, and I also suspect that the consequences would be worse because a trailer is low down and more likely to go under a vehicle rather than bounce off a bonnet; and wider meaning that there is less room for a last minute swerve as someone looks up from their CD player.

Those are my feelings having been a cyclist, a trailer tower and a motorist in a variety of vehicles. Given the value of my cargo I choose not to take that particular risk. I don’t consider this irrational. Over-cautious maybe depending on your own assessment, but not irrational.

Why don’t we try accepting that quite a few of us on here have exactly that

+1

Damo – really – where did you get those stats?
Lots of data out there. None I have seen gives anything like that. There certainly is not 50 times as many child cyclist cyclist deaths as there are children in cars. Thats just simple nonsense.

There is a balance to be struck here. Each situation is different. Would I head out with the Beamlet in her Chariot, or trailer bike in the future, in the following environments:

Dual Carriage Way – No
A Road – No
Twisty back road with Chavs using it as a racetrack – No
Not so twisty back road early in the morning before (limited) traffic starts using it – Yes
Quiet back roads (which I have ridden on a lot sans Chariot) at any time of the day using it – Yes
Cyclepaths – Yes

The whole process of having kids is fraught with risk. The advantages of heading out an enjoying the fresh air and giving Mrs B a break from motherly duties, in my opinion, outweigh the risk.

If you had a rational brain it would be fairly clear to see that based on everyday common knowledge a bike is more dangerous than a car. Just by knowing motorways are the safest roads, by knowing cycling is one of the most dangerous sports etc

On the contrary, if you had a rational brain you’d realise that motorways being the safest roads means that the stats for injuries per mile in cars is skewed. Given you don’t do journeys on a bike which you’d do on a motorway you have to compare with non-motorway journeys in which case the figures for car transport are a lot worse than the normal headline ones. Your everyday common knowledge also doesn’t seem to extend to knowing which sports are dangerous.

Rant over

S’not a proper rant, it’s too well reasoned!

Cycling is not a dangerous sport and the stats back that up.

Molgrips what you confuse is two aspects of accidents -= frequency and severity.

They are both factors in risk evaluation, aren’t they?

Damo – really – where did you get those stats?
Lots of data out there. None I have seen gives anything like that. There certainly is not 50 times as many child cyclist cyclist deaths as there are children in cars. Thats just simple nonsense.

Based on data from Office for National Statistics which is the place that records this kind of stuff in the UK. The study was done by London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine.

Both highly reputable establishments I’m sure you’re aware.

The study then looks at accident rates per passenger mile, ended up with the statistic I high lighted.

I’m not sure I can put the study up on line since I got from academic database. Will see if its public anywhere.