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I'm not sure I've driven a car without one, but I guess there may be ones out there without one. What are they for...as in what good are they in a 1.6 pretty gutless diesel van like mine? I can understand their use in a high performance motor where you want to change gear at a specific point. Mine has a red zone that if I was approaching being in it, I shouldn't be even be driving the thing anyway...given the engine noise would be ear splitting.
Am I missing something hugely obvious that will make driving a van a whole lot more fun? Couldn't we have a more useful dial in there?
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Good point 🙂
because when Bachman-Turner Overdrive are playing nice and loud you cant hear the revs. 🙄 duh!
If you are my father-in-law then they are for ensuring you never go above 1000rpm because it is [i]"bad for fuel economy"[/i].
My Ford Ka didn't have one and it was really annoying. I used to rely on listening to the engine for when to change up, but you couldn't do that if the radio was on or the window was down so a counter would have been handy.
And if I feel like being economical, I use the rev counter to keep the revs below 2000rpm everywhere which, again you can't really do by ear.
*Edit - I am Graham's father in law.
You can hear ****u all in my van when it's moving anyway. Ok, cool, I'll keep a closer eye on the counter in future.
Will there be a table of suggested gear changing points in my owner's manual?
It makes me feel like a racing driver
My work van sounds like it's revving it's bollocks off and it's only at 3500. Then again your got to rev it's bollocks of to make the piece of shit go anywhere.
My old Micra didn't have a rev counter, it was a bit annoying actually because sometimes I'd forget I'd started it (really quiet at idle) and turn the key again and then it makes that horrible noise!
i use mine a lot as the speedo has a habit of getting stuck
my Punto doesn't have one...
Unfortunately it also has no sound deadening.. so I can't hear the engine.. or the stereo.. or the passenger speaking.. or myself think..
I just used intuition and experience to change gear but this wasn't much help when my carburettor kept jamming open.. or when my clutch started wearing out.. or for that matter when the head gasket started to fail.. either time.. or when the gearbox wore out.. or... or.... or... or...
GrahamS - MemberIf you are my father-in-law then they are for ensuring you never go above 1000rpm because it is "bad for fuel economy".
i think they teach people this in china - i went in several taxis and minibuses, and not one of them used more than 1500rpm, ever, at all. Even when a lorry was bearing down on us and we had seconds to live, instead of dropping a gear or even two, the driver just put it into 4th and pressed the accelerator (going maybe 15mph). The engine was jumping off it's mounts! According to Brits out there they (the locals) all do it. Really really odd. They think it saves fuel, but patently it does not, and puts massive load on the drivetrain. Think grinding up a hill in big ring v. granny at the same speed - which one do your knees like most?
It used to give me 5 seconds notice of an impending electrical total existance failure on my old Fiat Bravo.
Twitchy rev counter = Twitchy bum time
They think it saves fuel, but patently it does not, and puts massive load on the drivetrain. Think grinding up a hill in big ring v. granny at the same speed - which one do your knees like most?
I've had the same conversation with my father-in-law (or possibly Fortunateson09) and he remains unconvinced. I'm sure there is a lot to be said for low revs - but I can hear his poor car crying as it valiantly struggles to drag five adults plus a mobility scooter up a hill in fifth at 20 mph. 😯
It helps you to make good gear changes, and if you're deaf as post, gives you some indication of how the car's revving. That's why old people all manoeuvre at half throttle, engine screaming at 3500 revs, and everyone in the car park hoping to god that the clutch cable fitted by Mr Nagano at Datsun in 1976 is going to hold.
Our Focus also has a little red arrow that points up when you get over about 6000rpm. I've never had a car with a shift light and it's great! (I have had one on a bike though)
So you can use all the revs and keep your eyes on the road with a wary eye out for the little red light. 😀
Change up when you hit the limiter works for me 😳
And PeterPoddy by the sounds of it. 😀
Is it not so you can tell people your diesel turbo generates 170bhp at only 2500rpm?
Same reason cars come with Alloys?
Rev counters are ace.
I remember being amazed at the rev counter on Bill Ivy's 1969 125 Yamaha
It started at 14,000
I learned to drive in a car without a rev counter or a limiter, you were never sure how far you could push it in each gear!
Someone I used to know, her mum never let the revs go above about 1100rpm - seriously, it was 6-700rpm mostly. And she got frustrated with lack of progress so shoved her foot to the boards. Poor bloody car.
Our 85bhp Jimny has one... 😆
Have found a rev counter essential in some cars, pointless in others.
Samuri - you don't bore people with bhp, you bore them with torque figures if you drive a turbodiesel 😉
Samuri - you don't bore people with bhp, you bore them with torque figures if you drive a turbodiesel
If you're the proud owner of a car with a three litre V6 TDi, you can do both. One day I might be that lucky.
I always thought it was like a geiger counter for vicars.
Will there be a table of suggested gear changing points in my owner's manual?
I think there is. There is certainly graphs and charts showing maximum power output etc in some I have bothered to look at.
first car didnt have one .... who knew that a diesel fiesta could do 30 in first gear ..... it didnt have a limiter it just ran out of puff on the pump !
If you're the proud owner of a car with a three litre V6 TDi, you can do both. One day I might be that lucky.
V6TDI = Audi = only 240ish bhp 😉
Mat, I am quite sure everyone on this forum knows how amazing your car is already.
8)
😀
Mat, I am quite sure everyone on this forum knows how amazing your car is already.
Oh and of course you never ever mention your TT... 😆 😉
Perhaps occasionally, but I don't think I have a chance of taking your crown. 🙂
(And I have never actually posted a picture of it...)
That's because you are a keyboard warrior and actually only own a Fiesta...
😆
Still jealous of your shopping trolley double buggy though - now THAT is cool.
TT? oooh...I bet you use your rev counter lots. 8)
Tried some eyes closed driving in the van this morning...to [i]feel[/i] the engine telling me when to change up. I felt I was really in tune with the 1.6 diesel. We were as one.
Our other car simply orders us when to change up or down for the most economical driving 🙂
Eyes closed driving - ermmmm...
Not for the uninitiated 🙂
That's because you are a keyboard warrior and actually only own a Fiesta...
You never know... 😉
TT? oooh...I bet you use your rev counter lots.
I should be so lucky, since the girls came along it just gets used for the very short commute to work and rarely gets over 3k. (Lesson learnt - I won't sign a three year lease the next time).
And I must admit I have tried eyes closed driving several times. Ohh, and switch the lights off driving at night too. 😆
MF, are you going to get a different car when the lease is up?
He's going to face up to reality and get a people carrier I reckon... 😆
I love people carriers! All that space.. yeah 🙂 Was lusting after a VW caravelle yesterday.. to carry about my ONE kid.. 🙂
Too right I am - I fancy an estate, my wife fancies a 4x4 ( 🙁 ) so it will depend on what lease deals there are around when I am looking. I fancy an Accord estate at the moment (this is likely to change countless times in the next year), but haven't got so far as test driving anything yet.
I got the TT when we were trying for a family with IVF and decided I couldn't choose a car based on what might happen so got the car I wanted. Mere months later we were pregnant with the twins. Ooops.
Why does she want 4x4? Looks or off-road ability? There are some pretty economical crossovers around now, VW Tiguan blue-motion for instance. Although personally I'd rather either an estate or an MPV - SUVs are big on the outside and small on the inside, ime, so worst of both worlds.
Get her a Nissan Juke...they're proper street man.
When I say 4x4 I mean generic higher cars so the Tiguan, Q5 etc all come into the mix. She just likes the idea of a higher vehicle for (perceived) safety and for the ease of lifting the girls in and out.
Right. Would she listen if you showed her stats that proved road death has no correlation to size of car?
They'd be a lot more useful in conjunction with power, torque and various load efficiency plots. But that's completely at odds with the modern view that you shouldn't know what a 'torque' is let alone how an engine works.
Maximum efficiency in my car comes from keeping the revs below where the second intake valve opens. Maximum fun is at the other end of the rev counter. The bit in between is solely for A-road and motorway cruising.
It's the equivalent of a cadenceometer - only useful if you understand it.
Right. Would she listen if you showed her stats that proved road death has no correlation to size of car?
Possibly but I am not even going there until next year when I start looking as I am likely to change my mind about what I want many times in the next year anyway.
But she does like the idea of driving a car with a much higher driving position so that will always be a hurdle for me to sort out.
My mother in law is the same - has to have a **** off great 4x4 for the high driving position.
It's a "woman" thing.
Chief - depends on the engine.
Maximum efficiency in my car comes from keeping the revs below where the second intake valve opens
Not sure I agree here...! There are many factors influencing thermodynamic efficiency, if this is indeed what you are talking about.
My mother in law is the same - has to have a **** off great 4x4 for the high driving position.It's a "woman" thing.
The high driving position of a 4x4 is lovely, much better view of the road ahead, much easier to anticipate peoples moves, much easier to get out of junctions without having only a view of the car next to you, and when some moron runs up your bum, a decent old-school 4x4 will have a minor paint scratch and shake them off. There's loads of reasons for having a 4x4. There's a few against, too.
Back to the original post - not sure why there are rev counters - probably so people can see they're being stupid and sitting at high revs, especially as many modern cars are so damn quiet you can't hear the engine. I hate that, I rarely look at the rev counter but in a quiet car you can almost forget what gear you're in they're that silent. Ultimately rev counters are not ideal in fast cars (if you're using the car in a way that requires precise knowledge of the rev counter readout, you're accelerating too fast to look at it and should really be able to tell from the engine note. Shift lights are the way forward for such cases.
Smaller/fewer inlet valves do increace efficiency, acheievable either by having 2 camshafts/sets of valves as in V-tech or with fiat's new multiair system which has hydraulic cylinders/pistons between valve and cam, so you an get away with a himalayan shaped cam that wouldn't even let the engine tick over properly and the piston forces flid through a variable damper, at low throttle openings most of the oil can escape, so the valves barely open, at full throttle the damper closes and the valves a are pushed fully open as theres nowhere for the flid to escape to.
It's to do with vapourising the fuel better, large openings allow the fuel to coalece which in turn means you have to pump more fuel in to compensate (a bit like when the engine is running cold and you have to run the choke on for a few minutes, effectively restricting the intake manifold). Which is also why big carb's/throttle bodies arn't always a good idea.
Maximum efficiency in my car comes from arranging things so that i can drive it when the roads aren't gridlocked.
Rev counter in my car is in the centre - biggest dial as well, so its often the only one I can see. I use it to keep the revs below (yes really) a certain level whilst the car is warming up. Once its warmed up, then its used to keep the revs well above that point 😀
4x4 and estate = rs4=lots of fun, 4x4 and slightly larger estate=firing god up in the morning=rs6=please please one day
Shift lights seem a good idea, particularly if you can have them trigger at different revs depending on load and target (i.e. speed or economy). Regarding economy, many v-tec type engines run lean burn 3 valve strategies at low revs, so they're very economical when kept in that range and then behave more like a fairly high performance conventional 4 valve at higher revs. The hardcore v-tec engines run 4 valve all the time and switch cams entirely, going from a fairly high performance road car tune to a race tune, the switch happening way up the rev counter.
The downside to all these revvy petrol engines is that high rev overtaking manoeuvres seem to offend far more than the same behaviour in a car of equal performance but delivered at lower revs. The upside is they sound lovely.
One thing missing from many cars these days - simple engine oil and/or water temp gauges - WHY?!!
My Land Rover doesn't have one, I don't feel like it needs one!
A speedo that, at least, made a guess at the speed would be nice though.
On topic - Rev counters, never really use it, change gear based on engine feel and need for speed. That said our VW Touran actually tells you which gear to be in on the LCD display, doesn't always get it right though.
Off topic - 4 x 4s. We've got a Honda CRV pretend 4 x 4 (owners manual says not to take off road 😆 ) and a VW Touran which is they're 5 / 7 seater. The Touran is way more practical. It easily does 60 mpg on long motorway trips, is faster and accelerates better. Driving position is equally as good as the CRV and internally there is way more space for roughly the same body footprint (with the added bonus of 2 extra seats in the boot or a huge boot). Only place the CRV scores is ground clearance which is only really an issue when driving around Gisburn Forest, the Touran will never be going in there again 😯
It's to do with vapourising the fuel better, large openings allow the fuel to coalece
Eh? How come?
I was under the impression that v-tec was variable valve timing which changed the amount of overlap between exhaust and inlet valves - more overlap for performance, less overlap for economy.
Smaller/fewer inlet valves do increace efficiency, acheievable either by having 2 camshafts/sets of valves as in V-tech or with fiat's new multiair system which has hydraulic cylinders/pistons between valve and cam, so you an get away with a himalayan shaped cam
and in BMW system they have done away with throttle valves completely and throttle is controlled by varying the lift of the valves rather than via a traditional butterfly(s) etc. Meant to be more efficient, though it is not used for M series engines...
re valve overlap - this improves fuel /air mixture being drawn into the chamber as the bigger the overlap the better the suck from the exhaust system and thus better chamber filling for NA engines, but doing this you also lose fuel/air out into the exhaust - bad for economy and emissions... good for power though
One thing missing from many cars these days - simple engine oil and/or water temp gauges - WHY?!!
Although I'd prefer to have them myself, all that most people would require is a simple warning to say that the temperature is too high or low. Even then, most people wouldn't know what to do about it anyway.
Modern cars warm up quickly and maintain temperature effectively.
Likewise for oil pressure gauges. I'd like one, but oil pressure is rarely an issue. If the oil pressure does drop, chances are that the engine will seize and need replacing.
Aristotle - my Astra (1.9CDTI 150) and the BM don't have temp gauges, the Jimny does! I want to know when my oil is warm enough to give the car some stick. As it is, I just drive it carefully for a few minutes, hope it's warmed up then have some fun (even though this is as PC as hitting kids). Seems odd that many "performance" cars don't have temp gauges.
Orange Light On - STOP Immediately... and not like my colleagues wife who thought it just meant 'take to dealer when you next have chance'....
oops
V-tec et al tend to do more than just change the timing, they also adjust lift. Back in the 90s Honda used to sell an economy oriented v-tec (instead of a diesel) which was the precursor to modern milder v-tecs with this 3 valve lean burn low rev strategy. A key part of this approach is optimising the swirl pattern by causing the right kind of turbulence at low revs (when the port area of 2 intake valves could result in laminar flow and thus poor combustion of leaner mixes).
What v-tecs don't do is provide any useful torque.
That BMW thing is clever - is it only in conjunction with direct injection?
I look forward to the next generation of petrol engines which are likely to be compression ignition at low revs, spark at high revs, for diesel economy but petrol drivability, cleanliness and performance. Mercedes are under way with this using moving crankshaft bearing mounts to give variable compression ratio.
Torque on it's own is useless, a human on a bike can provide more torque than a small car engine! Fortunately gearboxes were invented...
I found the v-tec had a 3 lobe cam profile, the third cam lobe had an oil actuated piston which locked all three followers together so it ran on the high lift option at high rpm. Simple but effective.
I look forward to the next generation of petrol engines
I've got a few ideas up my sleeve, don't worry 😉
Btw, does varying turbo boost not have the same effect as changing the compression ratio?
diesel type engines are still where the money is. More energy per mass and with a new stream of bio mass produced "carbon like" diesel (which is also better) coming into the fold all the more reason. also Gasolines can not produce the environmental savings required by legislation getting tighter..
Cellulosic bio-ethanol has a lot more potential than biodiesel I think. So we will still need petrol style engines.
Plus, petrol-electric hybrids get around many of the disadvantages of a petrol engine as compared to diesel. And petrol is a heck of a lot cleaner in terms of other pollutants.
Torque on it's own is useless, a human on a bike can provide more torque than a small car engine! Fortunately gearboxes were invented...
Yes that's all very well but catch a v-tec engine at anything under 6k rom and nothing happens. Fine for the race track, irritating on a real road.
with a 30% reduction in energy per mass compared to regular gasoline.. works out around 40 compared to a good diesel. You can make diesel and jet fuel out of cellulosic biomass and very good it is too 🙂Cellulosic bio-ethanol has a lot more potential than biodiesel I think
Years ago I used to drive an expensive car (no, not my own) and if for any reason the engine stalled, you could only tell by the rev counter dropping to zero. The vibrations and engine noise were so low when the car was not moving that you could not tell the engine had stopped.
It's to do with vapourising the fuel better, large openings allow the fuel to coalece which in turn means you have to pump more fuel in to compensate (
There's a whole heap of things you want to optimise, rather than larger or smaller being right. Smaller = greater pumping loss getting the air in through the valve. Smaller diam intakes mean restriction at higher revs but better gas momentum over large diameter, which means better cyl fill and so better VE. Ultimately your car would be throttled by the valves and have completely variable intake runnner and plenum sizes across the rev ranges. In reality they just pick an efficiency level at a speed, design for that and try to minimise the damage to the upper end power, I'd guess. Things like the toyota VVTI engines are horrible to drive "off cam", gutless miserable things despite being 190hp when allowed to be let loose. Vtech are the same, but it serves a purpose I suppose.
if for any reason the engine stalled, you could only tell by the rev counter dropping to zero.
And the row of red lights on the dashboard...... 8)