Usually around here, they do have lights on. It’s the ninja runners wearing black with no hi-viz or lights running on dark country lanes that baffle me.

Personally I have lights and suchlike on the bike so that it doesn’t really matter. It’s not as simple as “black sucks” anyway: for a start, while driving I’ve seen green hi-viz blend very effectively into foliage where black has been highly visible. As far as collisions are concerned, I’ve seen police investigators comment that hi-viz has acted as camouflage and that lights have blended into the nighttime urban environment. You pretty much can’t win, even if you acknowledge that visibility and conspicuity aren’t the same thing, because the real issue is almost always poor observation and excessive speed on the part of whoever’s going to pile into you.

Related, as background:

Bez: “The Wedge”

Is such logic transferable to the public highway?

But given how human vision works, if you are wearing bright colours then they might end up looking at you,

No because they generally can’t see you through their phone/the stereo /chatting to their mate what ever else it is they are doing except driving.

My old man was knocked off his motorbike. You can clearly see in the following riders video that the van veering onto his side of the road appears to have no driver…….he was leaning down to get something off the passengers floor……

The number of folk I still see doing something in their phone while driving is remarkable.

Blanket ban the driver from touching or taking calls at the wheel. (Even hands free) make the driver drive.

I was sat at some traffic lights waiting to turn right a month or two back when some old **** pulled up alongside me and proceeded to ask me why I didnt have lights on, I pointed out it was a bright sunny day. He then moaned about my black top (it has reflective panels but thats beside the point) he told me I should be wearing hi viz so I can be seen. I looked down at his black car and said why isnt that hi viz and why are your lights off? He started moaning some more, luckily at this points the lights changed and I rode off.

Basically it doesnt matter what you wear if people dont look, although I do use lights and bright clothing in lower light.

Sure, sometimes drivers don’t look and if you’re in the way you’ll get hit no matter what.

But sometimes they just don’t look very well and standing out in bright colours is the difference between being spotted early or late / not at all.

Not wearing high vis because of the first case puts you at a higher chance of being hit on the second.

I don’t understand why people think the second case is somehow OK to expose yourself to.

The only saving grace I can see and the only way I stop it making me angry is that the people cycling around in black force most drivers to look a bit harder, so making me a bit safer in my bright colours.

I was drawn to Ale as a brand due to their colourful and bright kit. Over the years they have got more and more subdued and black. I would guess this is the answer, people don’t buy bright kit.

My shorts are end of life, and I cannot replace with the nice bright summer shorts like I bought previously. I also had winter shorts with nice day glo yellow panels, but all their new kit is black. Sad.

I was dumbfounded to see a roadie yesterday with a completely murdered out carbon bike (looked very expensive) wearing all black from shoes to leggings to top and helmet – during afternoon rush hour weaving in and out of the cars with only a single led rear light on. I’m not kidding his shadow was brighter than he was, it was astonishing.

I was dumbfounded to see a roadie yesterday with a completely murdered out carbon bike (looked very expensive) wearing all black from shoes to leggings to top and helmet – during afternoon rush hour weaving in and out of the cars with only a single led rear light on. I’m not kidding his shadow was brighter than he was, it was astonishing.

And yet you still saw him!

I was coming home in the car approaching roundabout, looked at little more than walking speed, thought it was clear, started to go and only then noticed a cyclist in all black. I don’t think I was driving in anything like a daft way, I still managed to stop at the give way line but I just didn’t see him on first look. Blended in with the dark trees/fence in the back ground. Made me think I’m always putting my lights on during the day and whilst I don’t own an all black outfit I won’t be buying one.

Bez

…because the real issue is almost always poor observation and excessive speed on the part of whoever’s going to pile into you.

/End thread for me.

I wear brighter colours. I use lights.
Twice I’ve been knocked off, both times wearing high viz and lights, once by the police van(!) who was waved out of junction by another user, once by someone who didn’t slow for a junction.

I find the dark clothes/cars/bikes obsession in this country very odd. Why do we always get the dullest and darkest colours here when the maker offers brighter elsewhere? Why do pedestrians stand in the middle of unlit cycleways in the pitch black wearing ninja clothes? Not even a torch to see where they’re going. Only reason I missed one guy was the jack russell he was walking.

The really shocking thing is how bad some drivers eyesight is, and I don’t mean the absent-minded distracted daydreaming but can see fine variety. I’ve been in cars with drivers that can’t see a parked vehicle on a well lit street until it’s feet away and they have to swerve. Was just about to report him to DVLA when he moved back to his home country. Way more common that you might think.

Personally I try not to wear dark clothes riding at night, just seems sensible. But I think bright lights, including a particularly obnoxious pulsing rear one make more difference. Got to make sure you have a drivers attention, not just be visible.

Over 40 years of experience tells me that it doesn’t matter what colour you wear, many drivers suffer from wilful blindness with regard to anything that’s not a vehicle. However, in winter I do wear reflectives and run lights which are far more effective than wearing fluorescent colours.

The same idiotic thinking insist on school kids wearing the stuff when walking on pavements when the actual risk is from vehicles mounting the pavement.

By all means swaddle yourself in fluorescent nylon if it makes you feel better.

Pretty much sums it up for me. Decent lights, reflective gear and always being aware of what’s going on around you works for me. Had a few close calls, but never been knocked off. In each instance wearing bright clothing would’ve made precisely **** all difference.

If only this thread was BLACK, I might have overlooked it and not read any of this SOS (mind you I could probably accuse many threads of that so whatever don’t let me ruin your FUN).

Pale green top. White helmet. Flashing front light. Still got me. Was obviously my fault he didn’t have insurance either 🙄

Making yourself visible to traffic has nothing to do with colours, It’s about contrast.
No point wearing bright colours against a bright daytime background.

‘part from that, blacks faster.

No point wearing bright colours against a bright daytime background.

I agree re contrast being the actual goal, but where on earth are you riding that bright riding gear blends in to the background ?!?

Gore’s shakedry fabric is really difficult to add colour to.

Have you seen Rapha’s latest Shakedry….

https://www.rapha.cc/gb/en/shop/mens-pro-team-lightweight-gore-tex-jacket/product/PPG02XXHVP

Proper high intensity flashing lights front and rear during daylight and reflective anklebands, helmet cover, proper lights during darkness and you’re as covered as you’ll ever be. Not sure colour of kit really makes that much difference – I reckon if they are going to hit you they will.

No because they generally can’t see you through their phone/the stereo /chatting to their mate what ever else it is they are doing except driving.

There are people who clearly aren’t looking at the road at all. They will still hit you regardless.

There are people who are paying attention all the time and observing well. They will probably always see you.

But there are a lot of people in between, who are sort of paying attention and give cursory glances. Bright colours will make a difference for those.

So would you rather be seen by one of these groups or two of them?

A pattern that’s been speficically created to make me as invisible as possible? Black at night is pretty much camo.

It really isnt. If you want to blend it at night then you wear a mix of greys and greens. Black is really oddly visible. Plus colours become way less useful at night just look at a bright red or similar under poor light.
Reflective is what you want then not high vis although generally I prefer to rely on decent lights including helmet mounted.

Never understood this. Do you drive a car at night with all the lights off? Disconnect your brake lights? Why not, isn’t it the other road users responsibility not to hit you?

Do you leave your front door wide open when you are not at home? Isn’t it everyone else’s responsibility not to walk off with all your stuff?”

If you’d have selectively quoted my second paragraph you’d have known you were asking the wrong guy.

Great debate I have started. Thank you, exactly the opinions and comments I wanted.

My bibs are black, my helmet is black and my shoes are black, but at this time of year my top is either bright green or bright orange and my gilet is either HYPERpink or blue reflective. I also always ride with lights even in bright sunshine. In winter I have a helmet light, a bar light and a flashing light and the same at the back. When approaching junctions with stationary cars waiting to pull out or across me, I make sure to point the helmet light toward the car to get their attention.

I’ll add my anecdote of a car pulling out in front of me on a roundabout at night. I could see he was going to do it so I stopped and yelled at him (window open) . He slammed on the brakes and looked at me & then did that thing vampires do when caught in the sunlight as the full force of an Exposure Diablo, Axis and helmet mounted Joystick seered into his eyeballs from 6 feet away.
Ultimately if you are going to be seen, they have to look. As others have said an awful lot of accidents are failure to look properly, not that the driver looked and the cyclist was ‘invisible’. However, I think it is probably fair that at least some accidents have lack of conspicuity is a contibutory factor, but not as many as people make out.
But… in terms of being conspicuous, I reckon it is equally important that people consider not just colour but also shape. It is really important to have a solid block of whatever colour because it forms a recognisable person shape which is easier for the human brain to pick up. The other day I saw a bloke wearing a bright red jacket with a Hi-Viz gilet divided into orange & yellow. It actually acted as camouflage because it totally broke up his outline. He was nowhere near as ‘visible’ as he probably thought he was.
I also think that black is maligned. Agreed, if there is a dark background it may not show up as well, but in normal daylight it is a pretty conspicuous colour. People really need to open their eyes (literally) & look how things appear on the road, not how they appear to their preconceptions. I have done a lot of looking at cyclists and the colours they wear when I’ve been riding recently because of threads like this one, and black is visible from miles away, unless the background happenss to be really dark. There is a reason why RAF Hawk trainers are painted all black, and it is because it forms a dense, solid object that is easy to differentiate against the background. There is very little black in nature. Personally I think muted colours of grey & brown are far less conspicuous than black. Don’t get me started on companies like Morvelo selling camouflage pattern jackets for road use.
But…. personally I do favour bright orange, unless it is autumn at which point I switch to red.

Plus colours become way less useful at night just look at a bright red or similar under poor light.

In my experience as a driver it’s about what gets picked out in the edges of your lights. I do find actual bright colours to be more visible, surprisingly enough; and black to be really quite difficult to see.

Ultimately if you are going to be seen, they have to look. As others have said an awful lot of accidents are failure to look properly, not that the driver looked and the cyclist was ‘invisible’.

I don’t think you are appreciating what I’m trying to say. Simply ‘looking’ in a cyclist’s direction doesn’t mean that the cyclist will be seen and registered in the driver’s mind.

Agreed, if there is a dark background it may not show up as well, but in normal daylight it is a pretty conspicuous colour.

To be the most visible you need to wear colours that aren’t in the surrounding environment. Even in daylight there is a lot of black around. And if it’s bright and sunny, there’s black all over the place in the shadows from trees and buildings. Obviously it’s not black, but when your eyes are adjusted to full sun then a shadow might as well be a black hole. I once saw a dark grey car ‘appear out of nowhere’ on a bright day on a roundabout because there was a tree casting a shadow on the roundabout and when I first glanced I didn’t see any cars at all, on my second glance it was right in front of me.

People really need to open their eyes (literally) & look how things appear on the road, not how they appear to their preconceptions. I have done a lot of looking at cyclists

Yes me too mate! I’ve been a road user for 30 years! It’s not preconceptions, it’s experience.

Heres a thought what about day time? Are people suggesting that cyclists don’t get knocked off their bikes in the day and its only stealth cyclists at night getting into accidents? Like most I have the same kit for road and mountain biking (so lots of dark colours), so if you can’t see my 3000 odd lumen front light and 80lm rear light I feel like even if I was in bright pink a driver still wouldn’t see me. As the person driving something thats most likely to kill someone the jobs on them to make sure they don’t hit me.

Heres an idea in order to absolve drivers from even more blame (like they don’t get away with enough already) lets just make everyone wear a massive light on their head at all times, ban any dark clothes in winter, and make sure everyone has a megaphone that constantly shouts “I AM HERE!” /sarcasm.

I don’t think you are appreciating what I’m trying to say. Simply ‘looking’ in a cyclist’s direction doesn’t mean that the cyclist will be seen and registered in the driver’s mind.

Which is why it is important to present a solid outline which says ‘person’. Don’t break up your outline with different colours.

Yes me too mate! I’ve been a road user for 30 years! It’s not preconceptions, it’s experience.

Well, our brains must perceive things differently. When Covid is over I’ll come down to Wales and we can go cyclist spotting together.

Jeez.

Those that don’t want to make any effort to protect themselves “because it’s the drivers fault / mobile phones / [insert other random whataboutery]” just crack on.

For me – as a cyclist and driver I know that cylists in bright colours in the day, reflective gear at night are more visible, from a greater distance to me so that is what I do to reduce my chances of being hit.

If other people choose to be less visible and so increase their chances of being in an accident then crack on.

Well, our brains must perceive things differently.

They probably do. Worth making a mental note of that…

Are people suggesting that cyclists don’t get knocked off their bikes in the day

Mate it’s about probability. No-one’s immune from being knocked off; likewise no-one’s guaranteed to get knocked off. It’s about making it more or less likely as I’ve tried to explain.

Those that don’t want to make any effort to protect themselves “because it’s the drivers fault / mobile phones / [insert other random whataboutery]” just crack on.

You know there are study’s proving that hiviz doesn’t make an odds and in certain urban cases is worse than black – but don’t let that influence how you FEEL about it.

I’ll stick to running flashing lights even during the day. They are intimately more.visible even in bright sun from much further away than ANYCLOTHES you could be wearing.

You know there are study’s proving that hiviz doesn’t make an odds

I’d love to see them, please share.
My experience in real life suggests otherwise. Yellow riders are visible a long way ahead, black riders much less so.

in certain urban cases is worse than black – but don’t let that influence how you FEEL about it.

I’m sure it can be worse in certain urban areas, but not don’t ride in those.

I’ll stick to running flashing lights even during the day. They are intimately more.visible even in bright sun from much further away than ANYCLOTHES you could be wearing.

I totally agree here – flashing lights even in daytime – bought a TraceR specifically because it has a daylight mode that is crazy bright (I think it’s dangerous at night as it gives a blinding / dazzling effect).

Seriously considering a ProViz all reflective gilet now….

I’ll stick to running flashing lights even during the day. They are intimately more.visible even in bright sun from much further away than

Just like cars and DRLs. I don’t recall a lot of car drivers calling it victim blaming when those were required. And they still hit each other. And ‘dont See’ each other. And those are cars, with lights. Just do what you can to improve the odds, why not?
We know anecdotally how many people haven’t apparently been seen despite wearing bright/hi vis etc. We don’t know how many have been seen because they were…..

in certain urban cases is worse than black

Which cases? And how common are they?

I run flashing lights in the daytime and I wear bright colours. Cover all bases – because why not?

It’s not like bright coloured clothing is difficult to get or looks bad. I’m talking red, yellow, orange, bright blue etc. I don’t ride around with a Sam Brown belt on.

Also – and I know I keep bringing this up but I think it’s a big and often ignored issue – flashing lights should be rapidly flashing, not slow once a second blinking on and off. That might help locating someone in a landscape from a distance, but it’s crap on roads and really really crap at night in an urban situation.

Lmgtfy

https://road.cc/content/news/232944-study-finds-wearing-hi-vis-can-increase-chance-collision-while-cycling

First hit there are more. Google.

Mate it’s about probability. No-one’s immune from being knocked off; likewise no-one’s guaranteed to get knocked off. It’s about making it more or less likely as I’ve tried to explain

“Mate” there are multiple ways to be seen I choose to have extremely bright lights despite wearing all black. And as for probability unless you can run numbers on what people were wearing when they got knocked off their bike its a moo point. I have been countless cycling accidents day and night in my years of commuting through london clothes don’t make a single bit of difference .

The Sunday Times reports that the study suggests riders who believe they are more conspicuous may adopt more exposed positions on the road.

The researchers did go on to point out that the results “should be treated with caution” however, as they were based on only 76 accidents.

The Telegraph points to a larger study in Denmark, involving nearly 7,000 cyclists, which found cyclists suffered 47 per cent fewer accidents causing injuries if a bright yellow jacket was worn.

Hmm. Not great evidence so far.

And as for probability unless you can run numbers on what people were wearing when they got knocked off their bike its a moo point.

No it’s not. When you buy a jacket you can choose red or black, there’s really no downside to choosing red. But it *might* save your life one day.

I have been countless cycling accidents day and night in my years of commuting through london clothes don’t make a single bit of difference .

Definitely nowhere near enough information there for you to make that assertion.

Arguably your evidence isn’t great either.

Mines just the first Google hit I have not read it. There are many links on Google.