none of it matters if they don’t see you, they don’t see you

Er.. that’s like saying seatbelts are no good because someone was killed in a car crash.

Imagine a hundred drivers passing you. If you wear black, let’s say 5 of them don’t see you at all. If you are wearing bright colours, maybe it’s 4 that don’t see you. Yes, you could still be hit, but the odds are slightly reduced. That’s a good thing, isn’t it?

Yes, you could still be hit, but the odds are slightly reduced. That’s a good thing, isn’t it?

You think the odds are slightly reduced, and even then you don’t know by how much. (This is, let’s face it, true of all of us.)

But again, that’s not logic you apply to everything. Otherwise you’d wear a helmet to walk along or across the road because you’d think it slightly reduces the chance of head injury if you’re hit; you’d drive slower when driving because you’d think it slightly reduces the chance of being involved in a crash; and you’d stay at home instead of going cycling because that’s not even a slight reduction in the chance of a cycling-related collision, it’s eliminating it.

There comes a point where we individually consider the risk of something to be low enough to be acceptable. The fact that, to use your made-up figures, you consider no more than a 1-in-25k risk (k being some arbitrary constant) to be acceptable whereas someone else might consider a 1-in-20k risk to be acceptable, is a matter of pure subjectivity and personal choice.

Which is why some people wear black.

Never mind the fashion police, how do the cops on motorcycles avoid getting slammed? What’s their secret?

But again, that’s not logic you apply to everything. Otherwise you’d wear a helmet to walk along or across the road because you’d think it slightly reduces the chance of head injury if you’re hit;

Yes but there is a disadvantage to wearing a helmet walking around – it’s uncomfortable, and the extra protection is, in my view, unnecessary. Plus most of the risk of head injury whilst being a pedestrian are under my control. In my view the risks are greater when mixing with traffic on a bike and more of it is out of my control.

However I cannot think of a downside of buying a more colourful top vs a black one. Unless something is on sale really cheap, I dunno.

Which is why some people wear black.

.. and why others consider it a silly thing to do.

the extra protection is, in my view, unnecessary

Nail, head… Precisely the point I was making 🙂

So molgrips, if it were to be shown that having half a dozen lights on your bars along with 2 strobes on your helmet made it marginally safer, would that persuade you to fit them? Or more to the point, since it has been demonstrated that Hi-Viz works best it it is moving, why are you not wearing flourescent yellow leggings when you ride? There is no downside & it is perhaps a tiny bit more safe.
As Bez says none of us has any real idea how much Hi-Viz helps. Given that, the fact that we have these threads is indicative of a victim blaming attitude. I don’t see many threads saying ‘Why do pedestrians on a pavement not wear a HELMET?’ The implication of this thread title is that people wearing black are stupidly irresponsible & are putting themselves at such great risk that the OP & others both notice what they are doing & feel the need to comment on it. There is no reliable evidence that it makes much of a difference, so all we end up with is anecdote on both sides. Personally I wear bright colours/ fit lights, but I have had enough experience of drivers ‘not seeing me’ in broad daylight on roads with perfect sightlines to be sceptical of how much difference it really makes. In certain situations it might make a difference (so like molgrips I think ‘why not?), but quite frankly, not enough for me to blame or criticise people who choose to wear black.

If you wear hi-viz, drivers who kill cyclists use this as defence in court:
https://road.cc/content/news/driver-convicted-cyclists-death-277111

Asked by the prosecution how she had failed to see James “right in front of your bonnet,” Powell replied: “The lighting coming through the trees and foliage on the side had created a flickering effect and I believe the high visibility jacket blended in with that.”

Why does Hi Viz keep getting brought into it. The choice is not black or Hi Viz it is black or any other colour that is much easier to see than black (red, orange, yellow, bright green etc,.)

If I had a choice of 5 jerseys in a range of colours I would pick the black one last. They all function the same and do the same job and I need to buy one of them so why would I pick the black one by choice?

If I had a choice of 5 jerseys in a range of colours I would pick the black one last. They all function the same and do the same job and I need to buy one of them so why would I pick the black one by choice?

Yep.

Number 1 top I see round here is Castelli Perfetto / Gabba, both of which are available in a huge range of colours all at the same price.

I just don’t get why the most common colour for road ridinng in winter seems to be black; and no they don’t all run day running lights, just ride around in the clag dressed as tarmac. Fair enough, it’s their choice, but I still think they’re daft.

If you wear black, let’s say 5 of them don’t see you at all. If you are wearing bright colours, maybe it’s 4 that don’t see you.

Well, you would think so, wouldn’t you. But is there any evidence?
I don’t have trouble seeing people in the road, whatever they are wearing. If people do have trouble, should they be driving?

Well, you would think so, wouldn’t you. But is there any evidence?

Only anecdotal, from my own driving experience where I find it easier to see things in brighter colours that are differentiated from the environment. I didn’t think this was particularly controversial – I mean all over the world in the human and animal kingdoms things that you want to hide, you make them dull colours, and things you want to stand out are bright.

I don’t have trouble seeing people in the road, whatever they are wearing. If people do have trouble, should they be driving?

The thing is, I don’t have perfect congnition and vision, but neither do you. No-one does. This is widely understood in science. So I could ask a different question – if you believe you are infallible, should you be driving?

The thing is, I don’t have perfect congnition and vision, but neither do you. No-one does.

No, I am well aware I am a potential killer and I try to drive accordingly.

So molgrips, if it were to be shown that having half a dozen lights on your bars along with 2 strobes on your helmet made it marginally safer, would that persuade you to fit them?

As I just said up there ^^^ it’s a trade-off between what I consider to be a benefit and what I consider to be a downside. Which is the same trade-off everyone else is making. I don’t want to wear dozens of lights (although I’ve considered it for urban riding – if I could get a jacket that looked reasonable that had LEDs sewn all over it, I probably would) nor do I want to wear fluorescent leggings. Those things are too much of an imposition. But I don’t think wearing say a red jacket over a black one is much of an imposition, and I believe that it offers a significant amount of extra visibility. I mean we’re not debating red vs blue here, people are advocating black, one of the worst possible colour for visibility except in very specific circumstances which I don’t think are all that common. Probably better than wearing actual camo though.

Take this scene – there’s a lot of darkness in this picture. Black is going to blend right in there (and does, in my experience of driving and riding on bright sunny days).

I just don’t get why the most common colour for road ridinng in winter seems to be black

Where do you live as its not what I see at all.

I disagree molgrips. A black rider would be nicely silhouetted against the background. So perhaps not as inconspicuous as you might think.

A black rider would be nicely silhouetted against the background

When he gets to the end of the dark section and hence has the light bit ahead of him then yes, but at the start of this section, or on similar bits of road or on a similar section with a rise in the road or a corner no chance.

I didn’t advocate a preference for one colour or another, merely saying always assume they haven’t seen you and ride accordingly.
Hi-viz or bright/colourful clothing is not an invincibility cloak.