In the hierarchy of safety PPE is the last measure.

I don’t ride in positions that leave me vulnerable.

I would rather be alive than “right”.

The motto of assuming everyone is an idiot and going to pull out on you makes life easier.

I calculate risk constantly, I will ride in the middle of the lane through road works or past a bit of crap road that I know is coming up.

Hi-vis won’t make a blind bit of difference if you snake down the inside of a driver following sat nav.

This.

Again, all depends where you ride. Coloured clothing in an urban setting with a background of various colours is not so effective as a very bright jersey or jacket in a shaded b road where the background is dark.
A rear light would do it but why bother if the top half of my body is in a colour that can be seen from a good distance.

Because bright clothing is a poor substitute for proper lights.

In a nice bit of “whataboutery” last night when heading home down the A65 I was approaching Ingleton and only just spotted a couple of pedestrians crossing the road in front of me.

The only, and I mean only, thing I saw was the reflection of my headlights from a watch one of them was wearing. I wondered what it was for a moment as the movement didn’t make sense as it arced then disappeared behind their torso then reappeared. I was within twenty metres before I saw any form of their figures, way too late to take avoiding action – there was no approaching traffic so no silhouettes – not only dark clothing but dull, wool jumpers or fleece, as well. I didn’t have full beam on as there was a car about 300m ahead.

Sort of bothers me, and I try to avoid full black.
It shouldn’t matter, but we get hurt more.
Seeing a few getting caught out at the moment, dark creeping in and misty wet cloudy evenings that sort of thing.

Strangely I don’t feel much safer in fluro. So always go for my club kit which stands out against the mundane. Just bought a gold’ish colour jersey for this weather.

Sounds really crazy, but I think looking slick and tidy gets you noticed !

it’s so ubiquitous now that a car with no lights could easily be mistaken for parked at a glance.

Really? Only by someone who really shouldn’t be driving at all.

When we were along side it became apparent that she was in a high Viz gilet. It did not help her be seen at all. We actually had to be fairly close before the colour could be determined even with her light Hiden behind the cars.

Hmm. So that shows that high viz isn’t guaranteed to make you stand out – which is reasonable. However it doesn’t show that bright clothing has no value at all.

It’s all about reducing probability. I think there’s a chance that in some situations wearing a red top might make me more likely to be seen than a black one, so I buy a red one. It’s really not a big sacrifice. I don’t wear fluoro high vis because I really don’t like it; but red, yellow, orange or bright blue are fine and there’s plenty of choice in bright colours.

Really? Only by someone who really shouldn’t be driving at all.

Such as a large % of the driving public

think there’s a chance that in some situations wearing a red top might make me more likely to be seen than a black one,

If it’s probability your after you probably want to try a dress,skirt or wig You’ll get more room than any colour of clothing.

It appears that car drivers are stil discriminatory against who they hit.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/road.cc/content/news/252652-study-still-indicates-drivers-give-cyclists-wearing-helmets-less-room-when%3famp

If it’s probability your after you probably want to try a dress,skirt or wig

Anecdote sample size of one shows that’s correct. I was close passed while in full lycra, the woman on the sit up and beg bike with hair flowing and skirt on the same driver put the vehicle fully in the opposite lane. (No oncoming traffic for either pass).

Close passing has nothing to do with the driver not being able to see you. They are still passing you but just not giving you as much room but they have seen you.

I find that doing a quick dart left and right when hearing a car behind tends to do the trick for stopping close passes.

If it’s probability your after you probably want to try a dress,skirt or wig You’ll get more room than any colour of clothing.

Yes, but those things inhibit riding more than simply choosing a different colour before you click ‘add to basket’.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/road.cc/content/news/252652-study-still-indicates-drivers-give-cyclists-wearing-helmets-less-room-when%3famp
If you read the article that you’ll see that Walker did a second study after the wig one & found there was no difference in passing distance according to clothing (including helmets). As much as I like the idea behind his experiment, the fact remains it is based on the experience of one rider in each case.

I don’t really believe in either article I’ve linked.

It was more to show that people have tried to link ideas they believe in to actual data and failed.

simply choosing a different colour before you click ‘add to basket’.

If it makes you feel warm and fuzzy

It’ll just mean you are prettier pavement pizza when your time is up.

I find that doing a quick dart left and right when hearing a car behind tends to do the trick for stopping close passes.

This… I have a little “wobble” when I hear a car coming up. They might think “what an idiot he can’t ride straight c, but it does tend to either make them slow down and/or give you a bit more room.

I have a bright steady light and a flashing one, both front and rear. Got moaned at by another guy on a bike that my front light was too flashy /blinding him. Good, I thought.

GF has a jacket we found in a Nike outlet place. It’s reflective on the back and you can see it from a long way. Obviously this is only of benefit when being seen from behind.

I purposely bought pedals that have reflectors on them.

And despite living in Germany with all the cycle paths I often feel safer when riding on the road instead of in the parallel cycle paths. On the paths when approaching a junction you’re obscured by parked cars and trees until you’re on top of the junction, having to slow down as you yourself don’t have a clear view and drivers have less time to see you.

Interestingly, whilst out on the road bike this afternoon I turned a corner and looked up the road into the low sun and could see something black moving quite a distance up the road. As I got closer it was two ladies on horses, both wearing yellow high viz, the horse at the front was black and white. The high viz was invisible!!

Yeah high viz is quite a light colour so it won’t stand out against a bright sky.

Good job my winter road top is both red AND black 🙂

If it makes you feel warm and fuzzy

Not really no.

It’ll just mean you are prettier pavement pizza when your time is up.

Given my experience as a driver and cyclist, I really don’t think that bright colours have no effect on visibility.

I bet the MoD could save money on camo by just letting everyone wear whatever they want though. That’s not a bad idea. I guess the lessons of the Boer War where they stopped wearing red uniforms were misleading, after all this time.

And despite living in Germany with all the cycle paths I often feel safer when riding on the road instead of in the parallel cycle paths.

Glad it’s not just me that thought that. The cycle paths I went on put me right next to the hedges and walls so I was in prime position to get taken out by an emerging car.

wearing dark jerseys when road biking, especially in the winter is nuts! when the sun gets low you often just can’t see cyclists until you’re almost top of them. years ago a car driving pal pulled up in front of me and said, ‘you realise I didn’t see you”, I had a lovely black gore jacket, now only used on the mountain bike.

Especially with a low sun and wet conditions drivers can often miss cyclists particularly near the hedge on country roads. I always wear fluro colours on the road with a decent flashing LED, incidentally a lot of LED lights have a poor strength and many riders are wearing dark gear under the misapprehension that they are clearly visible with the LED.

There not much point arguing that the driver should be paying more attention when you are dressed in black, lying under the wheel of his car,

Weirdly I thought of this thread yesterday. Driving in a van, nice high position. At the bottom of a hill I could see 4 cyclists (2 groups of 2). The rear group had rucksacks with the bright green covers, that was obscured, the darker coloured riders were silhouetted and very visible. Not sure of the distance away or relative position to the sun, but it wasn’t a dark day. The fluorescent colours were not visible until
I got closer. From a distance it was more merged with the bushes and the grass verge.
Today’s ride I had very bright colours on, front and rear day lights and I still had a knob in a car coming straight towards me on my side of the road.

when the sun gets low you often just can’t see cyclists until you’re almost top of them

At which point any driver with half a brain would slow down!

anagallis – the driver with half a brain will benefit from as much help as possible, maybe we should all just wear camouflage and leave it to the drivers to work it out

Harvey, weirdly I found the fluoro green and yellow like camo from a distance. Especially when the trees and bushes are currently green and yellow. The black was easier to spot due to the silhouette.
I was purposely driving cautiously as the hill I was going up is popular with roadies. I was also thinking of this thread and was surprised how difficult it was to see the fluoro colours.
I wear fluoro green overshoes, red gloves, have bright flashing lights, so I was honestly surprised that the darker riders I noticed while driving were easier to spot. May have been a freak of circumstance, don’t know.

when the sun gets low you often just can’t see cyclists until you’re almost top of them. y

the jersey doesn’t help.

You want flashy lights for visibility in low light.

Given my experience as a driver and cyclist, I really don’t think that bright colours have no effect on visibility.

No but there are better solutions than placebos .

**** knows what’s happened to the quote..

Not against wearing bright jerseys. Won’t purposefully buy a black jersey but your kidding your self if you think it’s more than a placebo in nearly all conditions.

when the sun gets low you often just can’t see cyclists until you’re almost top of them

Slow down then because people are going to struggle to buy clothes that are brighter than the actual sun!

we should all just wear camouflage and leave it to the drivers to work it out

Not at all. It just doesn’t do what folk think it’s doing.

No harm in doing it but sadly as I said earlier Al your doing is making your self prettier under a car wheel.

Not against wearing bright jerseys. Won’t purposefully buy a black jersey but your kidding your self if you think it’s more than a placebo in nearly all conditions.

Ah, so you think I’m saying that you’re invulnerable in bright colours? Obviously not, that would be absurd. As I thought I’d made clear, it’s a small thing that may help that one time, and is unlikely to be harmful.

I use a rear flasher on my helmet all the time, and a small front for much of the time.

I also don’t wear black. Most tops are available in bright colours and they look no worse than any other top and don’t cost more. So I don’t see an issue.

This thread has made me re-think high viz though, even though I don’t wear it anyway.

No but there are better solutions than placebos .

What are they?

It just doesn’t do what folk think it’s doing.

I think it is just making the cyclist more visible in certain settings and even if subconsciously the driver will be more aware that they be be catching up with a cyclist very soon.
You may think differently but that doesn’t make you any more right than I am.

Based on that and the fact I can choose whatever colour I want then black/dark clothing is not on my list.

The amount of people who claim they can’t see something / someone a few hundred yards in front of them while driving is actually pretty scary, I hope none of you drive in the SE london area. Maybe you all need eye tests or just drive a little slower you aint Hamilton and Freddie can be 5mins late for football. I wonder if its selective site or can not see anyone unless they are dressed like they are about to go to a rave via a shift at Heathrow

Mines purely functional:

All my riding gear is MTB biased.

Black gear doesn’t get stained by sheep shite.

So my riding gear is mainly black.

But for commuting I use a fluorescent cover on my bag and I’ve got a bright orange waterproof top.

We’ve got anecdotes here saying hi-viz is camouflage in low sun and black works; we’ve got anecdotes of people being told that black is invisible in low sun and they’ve changed to bright colours. Much as with the rest of the thread: the anecdotes disagree, the less anecdotal evidence remains uncompelling either way; people are left with whatever opinion they choose in order to either think they’re safer (which is cool) or to beat others up with (which is not cool).

I think most of us do grasp the idea that being inconspicuous isn’t a great idea, it’s just that we have different experiences of what makes for conspicuity and what doesn’t. Additionally, many of us will, on any given ride, pass through urban and rural environments, towards and away from the sun, under tree cover and past hedgerows, at dusk and dawn and everything in between. And what works in one set of circumstances often doesn’t in all—and most of us don’t want to carry a change of clothes to swap every few miles.

Which is why (a) good lights make this conversation pretty redundant and (b) dissing others’ opinions—when if truth be told your own is just an opinion too—is a violation of Rule No. 1.

The “yeah but lots of people suck at driving” is logically sound but it’s victim blaming. If you’ve got energy to post it as a way of encouraging people to wear colours they don’t want to wear, consider storing that energy up and pointing it at discussions about sucky driving instead.

Slow down then because people are going to struggle to buy clothes that are brighter than the actual sun!

Well, quite.

I’ve written a pile of stuff about low sun, but I think one of the key points is that I think we need to leave more skips in the road.

Before its removal, this skip was apparently doing a grand job of identifying and stopping drivers who failed to respond safely to the big shiny yellow thing in the sky before they could harm anyone else by driving into them instead. Farewell, brave skip.https://t.co/68dbbFUFNz pic.twitter.com/lfDOFIQ6fR

— Bez (@beztweets) November 30, 2018

, I hope none of you drive in the SE london area. Maybe you all need eye tests

SE London is fine, its the North East or more specifically Barnard Castle you want to avoid!

I’ve written a pile of stuff about low sun, but I think one of the key points is that I think we need to leave more skips in the road.

If only the skip had a yellow jacket on…

Or a red jumper.

I love this sort of debate. Means nothing really, but lets everyone have a crack. Don’t get me wrong cars are a menace to us too often, but wacking the keyboard ain’t going to solve it.
For what it’s worth I’d say take a look at cyclists, horse riders, walkers and runners when you are out. On a sheltered road, or as it gets late in the afternoon, it’s easy to disappear into the walls or hedges whatever the clothes, even dayglo.
So do whatgever yoy think it takes to stay safe. Personally, I’m in the ninja camp, but with lights on at evan a hint of a dark cloud.

I wear a lot of black.

I have reflectors on my pedals and ankles. I have reflectors on my bag and jacket. I have reflective tape in strategic places on my bike. There are reflective strips on my tyres. I have a good front light and two good rear lights, one on the bike and one on my bag.

If anybody doesn’t see me then they’re not trying.

The amount of people who claim they can’t see something / someone a few hundred yards in front of them while driving is actually pretty scary,

Is anyone saying that? I am concerned about overs seeing me not whether I can see others.

Try putting yourself in the position of a driver who is in auto pilot, driving at 40+ on narrow B roads with blind bends which can be heavily shaded and doesn’t expect to see a cyclist as he didn’t see one yesterday.

That describes a lot of the riding I do where I live and do you really think in that scenario that dressing in all black is the best thing to do?

That describes a lot of the riding I do where I live and do you really think in that scenario that dressing in all black is the best thing to do?

A cyclist was blamed for their own death after a driver ran them over on a shaded road *BECAUSE* they were wearing high viz.

My waterproof is black but shoes are neon yellow. I also run with a rear light in daylight that has an flashing red/blue police effect which is efficient at catching the eye of drivers. I’m not actually sure of the legality of it but it works.