Why are there so many Santa Cruz bikes about at the moment?

deadkenny

And screw it, if you’re going to fit into a cliché group when you get a bit older, better doing that mucking about on bikes than playing golf

This x10 !!

Frankly, i’d rather people got out and just rode a bike they like, no matter what speed or skill they do it with. If they’ve got the cash to splash on a nice SC, well good for them, who am i to say they can’t??

Having said that, i can’t think of that many times i’ve seen someone completely mincing on a BronsonC or whatever? Generally i think they are at least mostly ridden at a reasonable pace, although, as the bike is pretty good, you can actually manage that without much “True” technique on most trails….. 😉

I wonder how many people would come out with the same comments if exactly the same frames and service levels were 60% cheaper and had Decathlon on the downtube?

Would you have bought it in the first place?

Loved my Superlight.

Whoever mentioned interest free finance hit the nail on the head.

After riding a BronsonC for the first time, the cost became irrelevant and I ordered one next day.

It’s a great bike that just feels right from the first ride. I’ve noticed there’s a fair few about at the moment but I don’t really care. No matter your skill level if you can afford one then why not.

The talk about buying British is just daft – I’ll buy whatever bike is best. I had a go on the Orange 5 650b on the same day as the Bronson and it’s an absolute pig in comparison.

nail. head.

tested a soloC, declared it perfect, did everything in my power to get one, owned for a few weeks, heard the nomadC was out, ordered on the strength of how ace the solo is, on day of release. not disappointed.

But would you have even considered it if it had Decathlon on the downtube?

Not great VFM…just checked the US website (sat in an office in Texas) and the cheap Nomad frame is $3,000 (at 1.65 USD – £ = £1,818). Given you can get an alpine 160 for £1,500 last time I checked with (arguably) a nicer shock and the satisfaction of riding something designed for Britain by British people.

But would you have even considered it if it had Decathlon on the downtube?

All other things being equal, yes. I didn’t buy them because they were expensive, I bought them despite them being expensive.

Good!

I wonder how many would honestly say the same?

No one has said they are badly designed or built.
Just overpriced.

That they appeal to snobs is another issue, but a relevant one.
Hence the owners who have bought them for their ride alone feeling the need to justify themselves.

They certainly stick to the new STW mantra of ‘Inspirational and aspirational’, whether you see that as a positive or negative is up to you.

Why are they overpriced? Do you think it’s overpriced, because you can’t justify spending that much money on a bike, yet others can?

Or is it inverse snobery?

You could say the same for any ‘premium’ branded product, in any market.

But would you have even considered it if it had Decathlon on the downtube?

Yes. A thousand times yes. They’re quality, the badge doesn’t alter that. It could say ‘probike’ or ‘dawes’ and if it’s this good, at this price, I just couldn’t care less.

And oliwb – you’re comparing a carbon frame (nomad) with the alu alpine 160 there – at least do an apples for apples job if you’re going to slag off the price. For example an alu bronson is 1800, an orange 5 frame is 1500.

They’re obviously not overpriced, going by how well they are selling.

Poor VFM is a different issue, for the full builds and carbon frames particularly.

I’d also be interested in a 29er Heckler, if you’re reading this Mr Roskopp.

Hob Nob.

They are overpriced for a mass produced far eastern frame whether you like it or not.

And if any product cost twice as much as a vitually identical one, then it’s overpriced.
Whether you are prepared to stump up the snob tax for the name on the more expensive one is up to you.

Just don’t get upset when someone points it out.

I have nothing against SC, I like the bikes.

And if any product cost twice as much as a vitually identical one, then it’s overpriced.

Intense, Ibis, Yeti, Crackandfail, Pivot and Transition all price frames in the same ball park. Who are we comparing SC to?

“overpriced” is an individual concept. They’re not flogging the things out the goodness of their heart – if they can sell them with an inflated margin and make more profit, then why on earth would they not do that?
Does that mean this frames have more margin than an on-one, yeah, damn straight it does. Does that equate to overpriced for an individual, well, that’s the individuals choice.
For me, and plenty of others, they’re not overpriced. I can see that they will be to other peoples point of view.
They really will be higher margin bikes/frames though. No disputing that.

That’s an awful lot of assumptions on your part.

Unless of course you know what sort of quantities they are made in, the cost of design, prototypes, production, logistics, etc.

What other product does it cost twice as much as that’s virtually identical?

Personally, I don’t think they are overpriced. Would/Could I justify buying one at retail? No.

oh how I miss it 🙁 Was named The Werewolf Slayer by a guy in Whistler (silver bullit) 😆 didn’t actually climb too badly considering the weight and seat angle.

If anyone has, or knows of one, in medium/polished going for cheap please let me know.

Hob Nob.

They are overpriced for a mass produced far eastern frame whether you like it or not.

And if any product cost twice as much as a vitually identical one, then it’s overpriced.
Whether you are prepared to stump up the snob tax for the name on the more expensive one is up to you.

Just don’t get upset when someone points it out.

Aren’t humans 98% the same as chimps/apes/cuttlefish, genetically speaking? It’s just that other 2% that makes all the difference?

it’s the same (bear with me….) with, for example, an SC and (insert other premium, but less expensive brand) frame. You’re paying for the 2% that makes the difference.

I have had 2 Santa Cruz, a superlight about 10 yrs ago and more recently a Nickel. I must admit the paint job on the Nickel was terrible. The paint chipped really easy. So sold it on, now own a very nice anodised Rose Granite Chief.
Would i have another….Hell Yeah, the new Chameleon looks brilliant, but I would only get one in anodised.

Rick, do you think the big boys spend less on r&d than SC?

Yet they can build a frame equally as complex as an SC, add components and sell a full bike for not much more than the SC frame.

Canyon, Boardman etc do it for even less.
The brands you mention are equally overpriced and appeal to the same demographic.

Tom, which 2% is it?
And why is it so expensive?

Tom, which 2% is it?
And why is it so expensive?

existentialism, language, logic, ratio… oh right, bikes.

It’s not one think you could put your finger on, it’s just everything is a little bit nicer, so lots of little things adding up to make the whole experience, IMO, worth it.

A better analogy might be first class vs cattle class on a flight. you still get there just as quick, its just those at the front have a nicer time doing it, for many many more moneyz.

Rick, do you think the big boys spend less on r&d than SC?

Yet they can build a frame equally as complex as an SC, add components and sell a full bike for not much more than the SC frame.

Who does that then? Comparable Specialized’s, Giants, Trek’s etc arn’t a large margin cheaper?

Canyon, Boardman etc do it for even less.

Ah. Well, without being blunt, of course the likes of Canyon do. When you remove a distributor and retailer out of the equation, what do you expect? Do you honesty think if Canyon operated the same distribution model as Santa Cruz do, their bikes would still be the same good value option they currently are?

Giant Trances start at £1300.
🙂

Full bike.

How does the frame materially differ from the equivalent SC that would justify the difference?

In a cold, hard, only the numbers matter kind of a way, probably very little, save for a bit of economies of scale from one of the worlds largest bike manufacturers.

But, more subjectively, I don’t want one. Like a supercar buyer doesn’t want a Nissan GTR, despite comparable performance to his Ferrari, for much less money

Giant Trances start at £1300.

Full bike.

How does the frame materially differ from the equivalent SC that would justify the difference?

Given the wide difference in just about every part of the frame spec, there’s no SC equivalent.

Compare like with like. A Santa Cruz with VPP suspension vs Intense with VPP suspension. Similar frame prices. Similar rides.

So how much is a new Heckler frame then?

And Tom H, I’m confused now.
Would you still pay twice as much for an SC rather than a half price Decathlon if both were identical?

Giant Trances start at £1300.

For a carbon one? Or are you selectively avoiding the points people keep making? The latter it would seem.

Those guys at YT, Canyon, Boardman, Rose are SUCH assholes, I mean they are literally milking the poor buying public, when you can buy a full suspension bike from Asda for £159.97. It’s got 21 gears & everything 🙄

http://direct.asda.com/Boss-Stealth-Mens-Mountain-Bike—26-inch-Wheels/000975461,default,pd.html

I mean it looks like a bike & has bouncy bits at the front and the back, anything else is such an unnecessary vanity exercise, right?

Straw Man.

So what are the material, design and geo differences against a major manufacturer frame, say the Trance, that make an SC aluminium frames so much more expensive?

Those guys at YT, Canyon, Boardman, Rose are SUCH assholes, I mean they are literally milking the poor buying public, when you can buy a full suspension bike from Asda for £159.97. It’s got 21 gears & everything

Bloody hell, mines only got 11! 😯

So you’re happy to pay for the name then Tom?
🙂

Nowt wrong with that.

And admitting it is the first step to recovery….

Straw Man.

So what are the material, design and geo differences against a major manufacturer frame, say the Trance, that make an SC aluminium frames so much more expensive?

Hardly. You’ve tried comparing 2 entirely separate business models (distribution network & retail Vs Direct sale) to try & justify yourself, to using the “they look the same, yet it costs twice as much, therefore it’s a ripoff”. Why not use the Asda example. They still both look like bikes, yet you could by 15 of those for one carbon Santa Cruz frame! The outrage!

I would suggest the cost difference between the Giant and the Santa Cruz probably has something to do with economies of scale. I expect Giant sell ten times as many £1300 Trances than the entire Santa Cruz production line over a 12 month period.

Not to mention they are targeting entirely different markets.

Nothing to do with the name. Like I said, ‘all things being equal’. That includes things like aesthetics, warranty, great reviews, a race team using them etc etc not just the head angle.

The markets they are targeting is irrelevant.
We’re comparing frames, not target buyers.
🙂
And no one is talking about ASDA bikes but you.
Not a valid comparison.

So how do the distribution costs justify the price differences?
Do you know?
I don’t.

Tom – as those conditions are basically unique, I’ll take that as a ‘no’!

Not a valid comparison.

Hasn’t stopped you so far!

This has turned into a bit of a sit back and eat some popcorn thread.

As for people who are comparing a Giant Trance to a Santa Cruz (Bronson I guess would be comparable), firstly while I like my Trance 27.5, the paint is stupidly thin, and compared to a Bronson ALU the trance isn’t in the same league for rigidity (rear end of the trance does flex when you start pushing it). So while the Trance is great value for money a Bronson ALU is indeed stronger/stiffer.

As some people have mentioned carbon Santa Cruz’s (which are supposedly the best carbon in business), for comparison a carbon trance ranges from £2.7k-£5.5k.

What’s not valid (volume and distribution aside) between a cost comparison between a Trance and a Heckler?

And gaz, the fact you prefer one over the other is irrelevant cost wise.

To answer your pre ninja edit question.

Intense tracer-last bike was an intense, wanted a change
Lapierre spicy team- massive delays, dealer never called me back after a short demo. Plus my feet are too big for the chain stays, shame as I really liked it. Interestingly, when built to the same spec, would be the same price as I paid for my 5010.
Orange five- nice bike to ride, but don’t care for the looks.
Trek remedy and slash, could have had either of these at trade (worked for a dealer), but much like giants, don’t excite me.

Tom, ta for the answer.
So it came down to excitement in the end?

Fair enough.

I edited because the ride is irrelevant if just comparing costs.

We’re going round in circles now:

They are more expensive than other comparable frames.
The fact that some of those frames are mass market is neither here nor there – they cost the factory similar amounts to build.

No one seems to be able to justify the exorbitant UK pricing.

Rusty Spanner – Member

What’s not valid (volume and distribution aside) between a cost comparison between a Trance and a Heckler?

Trance is a multi-link suspension design, which is why I compared it to a Bronson as it is also multi-link suspension design and similar travel.
A Heckler is a good comparison for an Orange 5 I would have thought.

Rusty Spanner – Member
…
And gaz, the fact you prefer one over the other is irrelevant cost wise.

I was trying to point out that, the Bronson while more expensive also seems to be stronger/stiffer (better made maybe?) so that extra money is getting you something more in that case.

Don’t get me wrong I like my Trance (except for the Fox 32 evo’s that it came with which were awful/completely rubbish), but I can also understand why people looking that kind of bike might want to spend more on something like a Santa Cruz Bronson, Yeti SB66 etc etc.

On a side note; I think the whole enduro thing is pushing manufacturers to make their bikes stronger and lighter, which is good for us.

Good points gaz.

But a 5 is another brand priced to attract those who value a certain indefinable something.
And UK built.

I like the bikes btw.

If Jungle would care to send me one for evaluation purposes, I’d be happy to oblige.
It worked when I had a pop a Privateer!

Don’t know how do do the quote thing, but:

Giant own the factories where they build their frames. I imagine that would make it cheaper for them to make their bikes. They also build bikes for other companies which provides another source of income, allowing them to sell their frames at a more competitive price and still make huge profits.

This doesn’t answer the question, ‘why are they so expensive in the uk?’ Perhaps they are sufficiently better (in the areas pointed out above) to justify the extra money to people who care/can afford it. Supply is limited, too. There are for fewer of SC bikes available to jungle than comparable Giants to Giant dealers.

I own a tallboy, I bought it in Canada, when I was living there. SC bikes cost more in Canada than USA as a result of import duties and what have you. I now live in the USA, but I have been so impressed with the bike that I’m pleased I’ve owned it for as long as I have. My first 29er and I can’t believe how good it is. Not tried other 29ers, however.

If people want an SC but don’t want to pay uk prices, import one from USA. I don’t think you’d be disappointed with your purchase. Or buy something else.