Why are bicycles so expensive?

it’s terrifying the number of people i’m agreeing with on here now.

I must say, I totally agree with Juan’s post, and I never thought I’d say that 🙂

Has anyone else noticed that prices rose sharply after the start of the current recession?

which was down to the 20%+ devaluation of our currency.

ok, so compare these two:

Sram x7 groupset, Recons with lockout, Avid Elixers – £500

same brakes, similar forks, similar groupset, only difference is maybe the frame – £1000

option 1 plus say an on-one frame = £700

It’s bollock all to do with volume, its how the companies value their brand. You can put a sticker on a bike saying “hand built” but in reality it probably means “hand assembled”. At the rate that people on here go through expensive components compared to mid priced components (dropper seatposts, very few people seem to have one that works according to this forum) it scares me that people are so easily led by super expensive tat.

But then every hobby seems to suffer from that

Yeah but a bike from Decathlon lacks trailcentre chic!

Cheap proper mountain bikes (£300-500) are probably as good value now as they have ever been.

Us lot that want all the trinkets are baubles are probably bearing the brunt of any price increases. But then thats a bit like complaining that Ferrari’s and Aston Martins aren’t the good value they used to be

RockRider are decathlon, which on a european scale probably make CRC look like an LBS. They’ll be buying recon forks and x5 groupsets in quantities Ornage can only dream of. They also follow the model others mentioned above of selling their own stuff so only have to make a one profit margin*.

Orange are a bike company in Yorkshire, so yes I can believe that the P7 cost’s them £1000 minus a sensible profit margin for themselves and the LBS that has to stock and sell it. There aren’t a fleet of Ferrri’s parked outside the factory anyway.

*The downside of this is your LBS is roudn the corner and can probably order a 5, Decathlon have only a few big wharehosue sized shops in a few big cities, so it’ll cost you in time + petrol to buy from them too whereas Orange spend that time/money/petrol gettig the bike to a shop near you.

I find it amusing when cyclists who are used to paying enormous sums of money for bikes and components think the sport isn’t expensive anymore, simply because they are used to seeing those prices when they look in websites/catalogues. That includes myself. Compare that to a layperson who doesn’t ride – the reaction is always ‘how much!?’ followed by a gawp when you tell them how much your bike/components cost.

Yes, bikes can be cheap as chips but for anything performance-oriented, let’s be honest, prices are simply absurd. A top-end road bike can cost £10k nowadays, which is similar to a top-end superbike. Even paying thousands for a pushbike, as most people on the forum have done, is expensive. A top-end complete XC race bike costs around £6k! Six thousands pounds. If you think that the likes of Giant/Trek/Specialized really can’t supply a mass-produced, made-in-Taiwan bike for less then you are simply deluding yourself.

Bikes are priced so highly because people are willing to pay that amount. It’s that simple. Smart people work out the level at which to price the product that will make the most profit, factoring in the drop in demand at higher prices. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profit_maximization

I am not suggesting that we, as cyclists, should stop buying for this reason. Just that people need to be a little more aware as to the reasons for high prices, not attempting to justify them for reasons of ‘advanced technology’ or whatever other BS they come up with to justify the amount they spend.

Edit: if this interests you, have a look at the trade price of complete bikes vs the RRP, you’ll get a real kick out of that…

they charge more because they know We are stupid enough to fall for their marketing and lust for debt … the sooner we stop buying at their (OBVIOUSLY SILLY PRICES) the sooner they will drop, i mean £5000 for a bluddy pushbike PERRRLEASE

Crikey, is that how much a bike costs these days? That IS expensive.

RockRider are decathlon, which on a european scale probably make CRC look like an LBS. They’ll be buying recon forks and x5 groupsets in quantities Ornage can only dream of.

+1

If you think that the likes of Giant/Trek/Specialized really can’t supply a mass-produced, made-in-Taiwan bike for less then you are simply deluding yourself.

As has been said there’s profits to be made. The amount of R&D and material design in top end bikes is a reasonable justification, and let’s not forget the fact that the majority of parts will generally have to be bought in from 3rd party suppliers, all of whom have to make a profit too.

It’s hardly just bikes though, is it?

I bought my other half a Skagen watch from John Lewis a couple of years ago – I think it cost £99.
While the woman was out the back of the store getting a box to put it in, she’d left the folder open with a list of all the watches/photo identifier/bar code etc. and the retail price of the watch I was buying was £99 but the cost price to John Lewis was £33! I saw that and have to admit to being tempted to walk out the shop and not buy it.

The amount of R&D and material design in top end bikes is a reasonable justification

I would dispute that, but of course, it’s entirely subjective whether you think that the R&D justifies the price.

let’s not forget the fact that the majority of parts will generally have to be bought in from 3rd party suppliers, all of whom have to make a profit too

That’s true but that will be peanuts. Think about how little it costs an online store to buy in those parts before they mark them up for sale; now think about how little actual bike manufacturers must pay.

I bought my other half a Skagen watch from John Lewis a couple of years ago – I think it cost £99.
While the woman was out the back of the store getting a box to put it in, she’d left the folder open with a list of all the watches/photo identifier/bar code etc. and the retail price of the watch I was buying was £99 but the cost price to John Lewis was £33! I saw that and have to admit to being tempted to walk out the shop and not buy it.

There is a huge mark up on most things, but I consider this more justifiable when running a brick and mortar store – the costs involved are enormous. Hiring/buying the premises, decorating/branding it, paying all staff, etc. Hence I was careful to stick to online stores in my above ramble 🙂

A top-end road bike can cost £10k nowadays, which is similar to a top-end superbike.

compare like with like

Your “superbike” costing £10,000 is more like a boardman bike cost £1000

There is a huge mark up on most things, but I consider this more justifiable when running a brick and mortar store

That’s a far far bigger mark up than bikes too.

hink about how little it costs an online store to buy in those parts before they mark them up for sale; now think about how little actual bike manufacturers must pay.

Not saying they’ll pay as much as the shops, but it’s another person in the chain who needs to make a profit. There’s a lot of people taking a bite out of the final sale price, so to speak!

The amount of R&D and material design in top end bikes is a reasonable justification

I would dispute that, but of course, it’s entirely subjective whether you think that the R&D justifies the price.

A typical high end carbon fibre frame will require up to 4 custom machined moulds for it’s manufacture. These will range between an average of 4k and 20k depending on the quality of finish and complexity. Now in the development process it wouldn’t be unreasonable to believe that say 3 different design iterations may occur in a single frameset. Now if the frame has 4 moulds at an average of 10k each that’s 120K before you’ve got your finished frame. Once you got your finished frame design you’ll have to have your 4 mould in for instance the 4 different sizes you want to manufacture the frame in. That’s a further 160k, if you really want to mass produce the frame you may require multiple copies of each individual mould. So for instance for 1 high end CF frame you may require 280K of tooling in it’s development and manufacture to be absorbed before you ever pay a single overhead in the manufacturing process. For a something like a santa cruz carbon fibre or say niner bike that will be manufactured in compartatively small production runs e.g. less than 10,000 per annum that’s 300 on the cost of each frame just in tooling. This doesn’t include for the cost of testing, sampling, materials, wages, painting, etc. used in the frames manufacture.

When you look at all of these types of expenses, typical production runs of high end bikes, the level of complexity in their, design, construction, component parts and the very high end materials used in them it’s a wonder a lot of them aren’t more expensive considering the number of hands they’ll typically go through before they get to the consumer. People have become used to cheap high production volume tat in this modern age and have lost all understanding of the cost and complexities of manufacture. So when something seems expensive usually they come to the conclusion that someone somewhere is ripping them off. Comparisons with cheap cars or motorcycles are poor as whilst your average performance mtb may not actually look like it has a lot technological development in it, it’s actually incredibly complex system that usually has much tighter constraints on it’s design than the average car part on the average car. For instance a replacement shock for a ford focus is probably a quarter the price of a fox fork but the shock for the focus will be manufactured in volumes that fox could only dream of and they aren’t even remotely as limited as fox in their design variables.

To be frank as a mechanical engineer I’m surprised bicycles are so cheap. Especially considering I’ve been doing this mountainbike lark for 20 odd years now and you’re getting an awful lot more for you money now than you did in 1990.

My first mountain bike was a full rigid steel Marin which cost me nearly £500 in the early nineties.
Look at what you get now for the same money,especially if you can find something discounted,and its far more bike for the money.
Its a point of diminishing returns.
As you pay more so the benefit gradually gets smaller.How many people actually need a 3k full suss bike for UK trail centres.I ride my local black routes on a 12 year old Giant hardtail but see people on expensive bikes puffing and wheezing up the hills.
Expensive mountain bikes and components are now no more than just jewellery.

It’s quite interesting reading the varied views on this thread.

Really the OP was basically talking about shiney new 2012 YM bikes you go into a shop and are sold at full SRP by the assistant, with all the overheads that such a “Shopping experience” incurs, being able to operate google can probably help a moderately savvy individual cut that price by ~1/3rd?

My own feeling is that generally pricing is not really that high for “performance bicycles” relative to the development costs, materials and production methods that go into making them especially when set against the volume that are actually sold and the distribution/retailer costs on top of that, we already know the direct retailing brands already mentioned address this last cost.

I also think that the cost of taking part in the sport can be as much or as little as the individual is able/willing to afford, you can still buy a new MTB for ~£300 most STWers would turn their nose up at it (Myself included) but they can be bought and will still get you up and down hills.

2nd hand you can get alot of machine for your money too.

The perception of all cycling kit having a high cost comes from some peoples habit of defaulting to new, top end kit without even considering stuff lower down the range/2nd hand, I mean how many of the chubby IT mongers rolling around Surrey with shiney XT kit would really notice the difference if you quietly substituted half those XT bits for SLX, Deore or even (Gulp) Alivio in some cases? One mans “basic” is another mans “bling”…

MTBs are only expensive if your not willing to compromise…

People spend what they can afford/justify on their chosen hobby/interest sports; Some MTBers will be OK with spending £3K on a bike but laugh their arse off at someone spending the same on a Stereo/Kayak/Train set… Everyone percieves Value in a different way…

Many of us are actually somewhere in the middle and willing to ride used kit and/or use lower spec’ parts to effectively get the same riding experience…

Retailers/Bike companies will only charge what they know someone is willing to pay…

but laugh their arse off at someone spending the same on a Stereo/Kayak/Train set

Interesting you say that, my ‘other’ hobby is one of those (I’ll let people guess which…) and the prices are pretty crazy due to the ridiculously small production numbers (think 500 world wide of an item). It’s also pretty common for an item to be announced with a release date perhaps 3 months away, and then take 3 years + until it appears. This is accepted. Very little discounting anywhere because of the lack of availability, and stuff retains it’s value amazingly, if not increases in pretty short periods of time.

All very different to the bike industry!

£3k for train set?! 😯

If someone sells you a can of coke (take away)for £1 they are taking the selling you****

FTFY

A top-end complete XC race bike costs around £6k! Six thousands pounds. If you think that the likes of Giant/Trek/Specialized really can’t supply a mass-produced, made-in-Taiwan bike for less then you are simply deluding yourself.

They do though, don’t they?
A quick Google brings up a Giant XTC Composite 29er 1 for £1700.

Aye, but the top spec one is far more expensive. And made in far smaller numbers. These are not inextricably linked…

But that’s the same for pretty much anything you care to mention I think.
And while the 2 things you mention might not be inextricably linked, they’re not exactly unconnected either.

Well yes, but people like to moan that a top end bike costs the same as a mid-range motorbike (or whatever)! Comparisons like that just don’t really stack up, bikes are expensive, probably too much so, but its the top models where the prices are really mental, and that is partially driven by the small numbers in which they’re made.

Yes you can buy a car for the same as an S-Works Epic now, but it’s among the most advanced MTBs out there vs a proper bottom of the range car. Compare to Veyron…

Mountain bikes aren’t cheap but I think they represent good value. The forces involved when you’re bombing down trails are huge, yet these bikes and components (usually) handle everything thrown at them.

I once spent 6 weeks out in the Alps and all I had to replace were pads and tires, everything else just worked. Amazing pieces of engineering.

A long time ago I got a mate to help me change some of the struts and springs on my car. £40 a strut direct from a local manufacturer, £30 a spring through a car parts place. I also got two new front disc brake discs, top of the line for £30 each. I then got into MTBing and went to get a shock for my bike. Steel springs were £30 then. I got the spring in my hand for the bike and was shocked after lugging the car ones around. It took a bit to realise that if you take away the difference in cost to the manufacturer of the materials for the two different springs, the costs have to be pretty much similar for the rest of the business.

Complexity wise, bicycles seem quite simple compared with motorbikes so I might expect them to be much cheaper.

But the industries work very differently. The motor industry has far greater design integration at the top, and component standardisation underneath. Both of these effects drive costs down and quality up. Then factor in the amount of automation in motor manufacturing.

While we are happy to quote 6k for a new mountain bike as an example, it’s far from typical. My most expensive bike is insured for £1800.

What about R&D? Car manufactures release a new model on 5-7 year interval. Where as bike manufacturers update their designs every year. An engine may be designed and used in multiple models also.

Also car suspension weighs a ton compared to an MTB fork, weight is only a consideration in high performance cars, and they cost a significant amount also.

Buyzz – actually most modern bicycles are as complex if not more so than motorcycles bar the engines,

Motorcycle stanchions will be chromed steel, MTB alloy with fancy coatings. Motorcycle suspension less adjustable and less linkages.

The biggest thing is weight – while weight is important to motorcycles its OK to add a couple of lb in weight to make production easier – you cannot do that on a bike. finally economies of scale – far far greater for motorcycles if yo think of the worldwide market

So, having read the comments I’m u-turning and I now think we should actually count ourselves lucky to be paying so little for our high-spec goodies. Thank you for being so kind spirited MTB companies 😀

They do though, don’t they?
A quick Google brings up a Giant XTC Composite 29er 1 for £1700.

Midrange X7 gearing, bottom end Fox RL Evo forks, the cheapest brakes Avid make, own brand wheels and finishing kit. That sir, is one fine racing beast there!

The big companies are the only ones taking the mick in my eyes. The fact is, it’s often cheaper to buy all the component parts and make a bike at shop prices is completely nuts.

£200-£500 for a hardtail frame made in limited amounts sounds like a good deal. The fact that On-One for example can undercut massive bike companies like Giant on value for money is completely broken, where is all the buying power going?

http://www.on-one.co.uk/i/q/PBOOWHIPX9/on_one_carbon_whippet_x9_complete_bike

Better groupset across the board, better brakes, lighter wheels, and a decent fork, for £200 less than the biggest bike company in the world?

just for interest according to the bible of definitive facts (wiki) re scale of output

in 2002 Giant made just under 5m bikes in one year.. (imagine it is more now?)

Nissan in 2010 made just over 4m vehicles.

what would be interesting would be the see what the average retail cost per unit of the two was – I image that the bikes would be much lower than the vehicles.

as a further aside brompton made nearly 30 thousand bikes last year.

http://www.on-one.co.uk/i/q/PBOOWHIPX9/on_one_carbon_whippet_x9_complete_bike

Better groupset across the board, better brakes, lighter wheels, and a decent fork, for £200 less than the biggest bike company in the world?

It is a fair point but probably because people like on-one

a. benefited from the manufacturing tech pioneered/advanced by the big companies (cycle and otherwise)
b. don’t have a massive range, worldwide coverage, full on marketing etc like the big companies do

Midrange X7 gearing, bottom end Fox RL Evo forks, the cheapest brakes Avid make, own brand wheels and finishing kit. That sir, is one fine racing beast there!

It’s a mass-produced, made-in-Taiwan bike, which Alejandro seemed to be suggesting doesn’t exist. No, it’s not as good as a top line XC racing bike for £6K. But that’s the point. Not everything can be the same price. But you can get a pretty damn good, mass produced bike for an awful lot less than the £6K halo bikes Giant and all the rest of them make.

Indeed, but where is the money going? Picking a normal model with no 29er tax:

XTC 1

So we’ve got:

Deore groupset + brakes – £250

Gold Recons – £200

Some cheap wheels (which I bet are better than the Giants) – £90

Expensive Schwalbe Tyres – £50

So we’re up to £590 buying from Merlin. Could easily chuck in a much more expensive 853 Rock Lobster frame, Thomson finishing kit and a Fizik saddle, and I’ve managed to undercut the biggest bike company in the world from one shop in about 10 minutes.

Can’t see why that bike shouldn’t sell for £600 or something, it would have about 3 years ago.

Waht about the rest of the bike?

Bars, Stem, headset, seatpost, saddle, pedals, grips, etcetc

It’s a mass-produced, made-in-Taiwan bike, which Alejandro seemed to be suggesting doesn’t exist. No, it’s not as good as a top line XC racing bike for £6K

No, he said the top ones cost £6k, but much less to make. Clearly you get diminishing returns, like pretty much everything in retail. I don’t think pointing at the top end is the best way to get the point across though, if anything the bottom end seems more broken.

rootes1 – Member

just for interest according to the bible of definitive facts (wiki) re scale of output

in 2002 Giant made just under 5m bikes in one year.. (imagine it is more now?)

Nissan in 2010 made just over 4m vehicles.

The relevant question is not how many bikes/cars either manufacturer made. Rather what % of Giant’s production was high end high performance bikes and what was BSOs. Similarly how many performance cars did nissan make? Sure you can buy a Nissan micra for **** all but how much does a GTR cost comparatively? And what percentage of the micra’s parts are so homogenous that they’re actually used on 10/15/20+million cars per annum?

Waht about the rest of the bike?

Bars, Stem, headset, seatpost, saddle, pedals, grips, etcetc

I dunno, lets keep going then, not going to have a hard time getting comparable bits to plastic Giant pedals and 300 gram riser bars for the remaining £240 after the frame 🙂

Frame

EA30 risers

EA30 seatpost for no other reason than it matches

EA30 stem, there’s cheaper about but I can’t see us hitting the limit

Cane Creek headset

Seatpost Collar

Outer cables x 2 meters?

Inners x 2

£130 left to pick my saddle, grips and pedals of choice. Slightly crazy, no? Basically, you can swap the frame for anything around £300 and match Giant or Specialized for buying power. The Specialized 29ers are event more stupid:

http://www.evanscycles.com/products/specialized/carve-comp-29er-2012-mountain-bike-ec030141

Must be like a £500 frame, made out of their cheapest aluminium. Forks so low they had to wait for this year for them to even be invented, on a £1000 bike?!

See I now concur for the second time with Brant and Njee… I am starting to believe this thread sucks 😀

“bar the engines”

Yes I can see your point TJ and the one about being cheaper because there isn’t so much fuss about weight reduction – making stuff small and light is very expensive*. But what about the cost of those high-performance engines – there really isn’t anything to compare £ with on a bicycle?

rootes1 – Member

It is a fair point but probably because people like on-one

a. benefited from the manufacturing tech pioneered/advanced by the big companies (cycle and otherwise)
b. don’t have a massive range, worldwide coverage, full on marketing etc like the big companies doc. don’t invest in/believe in customer service and so can cut costs there.