[Closed] What XT level Carbon XC HT race bike, circa £1500?

I have a 2015 Superfly 9.6 and I love it to pieces. Upgraded a few components to XT (shifters and brakes) and the bike is great. Run it tubeless, if it isn't set up already, and the stock tyres on the 9.6 that I got were the cheapest version of the XR2 and they weren't that great.

Racing with XT? How lowbrow dharlink.

Build something around a [url= http://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/cube-reaction-gtc-sl-29-frame-carbon-flashred-498392/wg_id-1286 ]cheapish Cube Reaction frame[/url]?

They also do the [url= http://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/radon-black-sin-29-8.0-463674 ]Radon Black Sin[/url] for not much more than 1.5k.

I'd probably have the Superfly.

I'd be tempted by the superfly, but to be honest I'd be more tempted to build something up. Especailly if you were happy swapping wheels between bikes to save on cashish.

In grand stw tradition, not only will i ignore the OP but also recommend my bike (or at least the 29er version): Scott Scale 940. Its alloy but the alloy frames are super light. THere is (apparently) sub 200g diference in 2016 frame weight from the lower end carbon scale.

Giant XTC.

I have a Cube Reaction GTC Race 29. £1599 at the time and very good, well specced.

Giant XTC.

Been done, by the OP, as has this whole thread, several times, probably 🙂

Surprised you're not recommending the Diverge and including a photo of yours.

I was looking at the black sin Friday - its £350 more but seems to be the only bike around with 1 x 11.

The Superfly is SLX, and appears to be the same weight as my anthem without the ability to swap wheels for my current race wheels. Hence, I'd face ugrade costs

My only other choice is an ex display XT 'dale FSI, with a lefty albeit its Alu at £1450 which I'd suggest all except the frame outranks the Superfly.

Been done, by the OP, as has this whole thread, several times, probably

No this one has a tangent - I want to see if theres something I've missed.

That XTC is still on the pedalon website. Might be worth giving them a call. May be popping in there later today, if I do then I'll ask about it, though that could lead me down a dangerous path 🙂

I called them Friday - gone.

I have a Cube Reaction GTC Race 29. £1599 at the time and very good, well specced.

Ah - looks good, do you have the Manitou fork - what is it like?

I have last years' model which has a Reba rl which has been great, can't comment on the Manitou sadly. Comfortable for all day use, as well as racing on.

I had a Cannondale Flash (alloy) with Lefty and I now have a Giant XTC (carbon). The Flash was lighter, the XTC is now almost as light. Either bike would have and will do just about as good as each other for mid pack XC racing mediocrity. Neither one or the other is going to make a significant difference.
I prefer the XTC for Peak District bridleways and all day riding.

No this one has a tangent - I want to see if theres something I've missed

Yes the 29C you were thinking of.

You have decided you are an XC racer - why the low budget? Have a decent FS and HT for your chosen discipline.

adsh has a reasonable point, given the way you are constantly questioning your equipment choice i would probably look at getting as hi-spec as you can afford!

Opencycles and no excuses!

Could probably source you a KTM Area or potentially a Myroon for that budget

[url= https://www.orbea.com/gb-en/bicycles/alma-m50-29/ ]Orbea Alma M50[/url]

You have decided you are an XC racer

My recent results and lack of discipline...

...

mid pack XC racing mediocrity

I was wandering around MSG "pit lane" yesterday and there wasn't a bike that isn't in this thread (ok so there was an old marin quad link), so I'm thinking, I must take this seriously and just get a bike.

It'd have to go on a C card at the moment, funded by 2016 work bonus that I don't yet have is the danger, so I worry about still being mediocre but in £1500 of debt 😀

I do like that Orbea!

Gaz thanks - not sold on the Recon fork on the Area tbh...

I've got a Canyon 29er from a couple of years ago that I really like. Fast but comfortable. If I was being picky I'd say it needed lighter wheels, but i really like it. No idea what it weighs tho.

If you can afford it and you want it, get it (whatever 'it' turns out to be). Just don't think it's going to rocket fuel your performance and get you podiums. Large differences in bikes will only bring about small, if any gains.

You have decided you are an XC racer - why the low budget? Have a decent FS and HT for your chosen discipline.

There's an old saying - "don't race what you cant afford to replace".

Unless racing for the podium in elite/expert, anything <11kg will do the job fine riders engine, skills and rolling resistance are massively more important than a slightly heavier bike. If I recall correctly, some coach did some testing with a rider with a power meter, and 1kg = ~1min on a climb of alp d'huez.

Edit: For a £1500 budget i'd choose the Grand Canyon.

Just ordered a Cube Reaction GTC SL, I expect to be a racing god once I hoof my legs over it.

Gaz thanks - not sold on the Recon fork on the Area tbh...

Aera Pro comes with Reba fork

If I recall correctly, some coach did some testing with a rider with a power meter, and 1kg = ~1min on a climb of alp d'huez.

Here's similar:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/08/news/bike-weight-myth-fast-bikes_339880

I guess I need to "have a word with myself" during next winter's training.

Aera Pro comes with Reba fork

Ah thanks, I was looking at the Comp.

I'd go for the grand canyon 5.9
£1299 and listed as in stock. Order one give it 10 days or so to arrive, hopefully everything will be fine, but Cancel at the first sign of being messed about and try plan B.

If the size is right this is a bargain

http://www.paulscycles.co.uk/m1b65s155p5413/CANNONDALE-F29-CARBON-3-(FLASH-CARBON)-2014

I have one and love it! Faster than I'll ever be

...grand canyon 5.9

The weight is in the wheels which being non QR, can't be swapped for my AC race wheels...

I saw the F29 the other day..., too big 🙁

Does it have to be carbon? Plenty of ally bikes out there that will give maybe 1lb or so away in the frame weight, but leave £500 or more in your wallet to spend on other things...

For instance, at £1099 the Grand Canyon AL SLX 7.9 is only a touch heavier but £550 cheaper than its equivalent carbon version. Then there's the alloy Cannondale F29's on Paul's Cycles at under £1k (were £2k). I'd probably say the money saved spent elsewhere (lighter wheels, tyres etc.) will make a bigger difference than the frame material will.

That said, there are some great carbon bikes out there for relatively little money too, and not all carbon is created equal... I've come across carbon "xc race" frames weighing over 1600g before (when an equivalent ally is no heavier), but then there's some gems like the KTM Aera which is only about 1200g when even the lightest most expensive carbon MTB frames in the world are only just dipping below 1kg.

The weight is in the wheels which being non QR, can't be swapped for my AC race wheels...

The weight on ANY "budget" XC bikes is always going to be in the wheels, and if you're buying new, you're not likely to be able to swap for your existing QR wheels as everything new is coming bolt thru pretty much.

Never mind budget xc. There are some meaty old wheels on much of the mid/top end stuff. People who buy stuff like this don't want to be paying for wheels, when that's more than likely to be the first thing that goes.

The Superfly frame isn't light - mine was 1311g IIRC, including the armour and mech hanger and that, but excluding the Maxle.

I can't see the point of Alu when I have a 24.1lb Alu bike with 1x11 and all kinds of upgrade investment in it already.

Maybe I should invest the money in a Coach for next years base/build/race :-/

Because a carbon frame won't in itself bring the weight down massively.

Chinese frame? XT group set from somewhere, LB wheels, some SIDs. Reckon it's doable.

Shrewd buying from crc and you could more or less do it. I basically did (excluding wheels), admittedly over time, with a £500 frame

Ac wheels are really easy to swap from qr to bolt through, just new axles. Well my race ones are anyway.. Just this new boost standard is stopping me swapping to a trek pro caliber at the mo as I have a few wheels.

Hmmm, I did think wheels would push you over £1500 (going LB at least), but still reckon you can more or less do it, and probably beat any off the shelf bike.

Superfly carbon frameset for a grand. SID XX World Cup for 500 quid. Then covert your AC wheelset. Job done. Or the coach thing if you want to actually get faster.

Or the coach thing if you want to actually get faster.

Well, quite - its this not N+1 thats driving me, which is why I've just pummeled my legs on the turbo...

I think I'm just born with "weak cyclist" genes...

Just get whatever Scott scale fits your budget. They are very fast.

^^ I'm confused - what is driving this?

My recent results and lack of discipline...

I think I'm just born with "weak cyclist" genes...

At the risk of derailing the thread a bit....
You seem a bit down on yourself.
A good coach will be a much better investment than a new bike.
However a bit of time/effort/learning with google and you can teach yourself a lot.
I'm kinda new to STW, so don't know much about you yet.
How old are you?
How long have you been riding?
How long have you been racing? And what category?
How long have you been following structured training?
Are you following a periodised plan? And if so, what are your target 'A' races? And what results were you targeting at those races? And for the season as a whole?

Clearly from what you've said you aren't happy with the way the season has started.
What have you learned from the races so far? Are you lacking stamina? Power? Descending skills? Did the courses suit your strengths?
Likewise what have you learned from your training so far? Each training block has a purpose - did you feel like each block had the desired/expected effect, if not why not.

Coaching (whether yourself, or others) is a constant game of applying training, measuring the outcome, and re-evaluating.
You are now a couple of months into the season, so not only do you have feedback from training, but you also have race performances to evaluate.

There's still a whole lot of season left to go. If you are truly not happy, re-evaluate and do what you can to finish the rest of the year stronger.

id spend £1500 on frame and forks only, port across the stuff from the Anthem and then sell whats left and then replace the wheels with the funds from selling whats left

Hey Stan, there's a guy where I work selling a Trek Superfly. I don't know any details but can ask if you want...

I can't see the point of Alu when I have a 24.1lb Alu bike with 1x11 and all kinds of upgrade investment in it already.

Unless you're aiming for the nat champs jersey or a World Cup podium, I'm gonna suggest that a 24lb bike isn't holding you back that much... The fact that £1500 isn't going to buy you anything lighter off the shelf also tells you there's no point in throwing money at the bike if you want to go faster.

New bikes are great, don't let me stop you from buying one, but I think you'd be far better off keeping your money in your pocket for now and other ways to improve your speed.

Upon reflection, you are probably right.

But I'll answer fife andys post a bit becuase it's therapy and probably worth noting for advice purposes. So fifeandy I've been riding for 20 years socially racing now in my third season. I do have a glass half empty personality trait. I'm quite intensive also which means I tend to google and analyse the crap out of things, so I'd say well educated. I'm training using a mixture of TrainerRoad and weekend club runs. I am however a professional travelling salesman so training is low volume - about 6 hours average - a week, and father of two, and becuase of that I can't / don't commute by bike. I'm 44, racing in Vets. Recently, I dropped off the training and food discipline wagon for a month during a new kitchen install and having to work in Germany for a bit.

I'm not a powerful rider, coming in at 3.44w/kg, but struggle on long drags. I do have a propensity to be able turn big gears on the flat at speed, can sail up short 20m inclines and have 100m sprint hence I started time trial line this year as a secondary thing as I failed in Crits.

My issue now is that I've had a strong winter in terms of numbers via the turbo, coming out above least seasons finishing FTP with no illness at all, the only issue being a lack of long rides due to weather/circumstance on the planned days. I am finishing about the same places now as I was mid/end last season - so in theory there is some improvement.

But I expected top be better in the Reg A races which I'm not. And to cap it all a club colleague in Parent mode and limited mTB experience rocked up on a Spec Stumpy FS and beat me by 5 places (well 10 but I lost 5 after a crash near the end) - also I spied on strava last night and can see he's still done double my miles this year.

With regard to strategy I got that "wrong" perhaps at the weekend - I have a strong starting sprint but can only hold the subsequent power for 5-6 mins before I start to get passed. Last Wednesday I found myself leading the field in a Reg C only to finish 9th. This Sunday I backed off the start and got slammed into a barrier by the back of the pack losing loads of start places.

Re-engaging on the turbo last night was hard but not impossible with TR set at my current FTP, holding 4 X 5min 108% intervals, 2 spinning and 2 at climbing cadence.

I just feel I should be doing better that's all, walking out of regional A's between 25-35 place isn't all that, with respect to other riders that is. I really wanted to be 20-25 place this year. Specifically I'd like that start - a strength - to carry through at least to the end of the first lap without tunnel vision!

<breaths out>

It's not the bike at all, is it... 😐

Why were you doing an interval session the day after a race?

^^ good question that. He knows what he's talking about too.

I have a strong starting sprint but can only hold the subsequent power for 5-6 mins before I start to get passed. Last Wednesday I found myself leading the field in a Reg C only to finish 9th. This Sunday I backed off the start and got slammed into a barrier by the back of the pack losing loads of start places.

Who cares that you get passed? Embrace your fast start (I'd be in contention for a stripy jersey if races were 200m), you're ahead of the bottle neck, and it's up to others to pass you. For XC racing that's a huge advantage.

You didn't FAIL in Crits... you've not FAILED at any of the racing you've done.... you've done pretty well overall.

In simple terms, the guys beating you are stronger, faster fitter, they're not on better bikes, they're not beating you because they have 2lb lighter bikes, they're beating you because they train harder, better, and stronger than you.

Keep the bike, if you REALLY want to do better, train better.

Why were you doing an interval session the day after a race?

Happy to be told I'm wrong, but because I'm racing again Wednesday night and therefore would wish to rest Tuesday, so Monday then is my only chance to ride, I ran out of time hence defaulted to the turbo, but also want every opportunty to build some strength / fitness...

Embrace your fast start (I'd be in contention for a stripy jersey if races were 200m), you're ahead of the bottle neck, and it's up to others to pass you. For XC racing that's a huge advantage.

Yes, I plan to revert to Plan A after Sundays's issues.

In simple terms, the guys beating you are stronger, faster fitter, they're not on better bikes, they're not beating you because they have 2lb lighter bikes, they're beating you because they train harder, better, and stronger than you.

Yes you are right and this is probably why I need a coach - because of my wandering whimsical thinking-style, I need to be told/whacked into realism regularly I feel.

Although I'm hardly what you'd call any good a this kind of thing, surely it's sensible to focus on what you're good at and go with that.

Didn't you get some decent results at 12/24hr kinda stuff?

I find it more satisfying to 'race' longer marathon & Endurance type events than XC, primarily as I can achieve at least mid-table clogger status consistently, more so than traditional XC where at Regional A level I'm more like lower mid table.

Yes, 16th Vet 24h and 3rd Pair 12h last year.

I don't want to sound ungrateful, I just want to be doing better at XCO, and as a rider per se.

Do what they ^^ say then, spend the money on a coach and not another bike.

.............. or accept your fate / genetics / time / financial constraints and be happy with your lot and a fleet of shiny bikes.

or accept your fate / genetics / time / financial constraints and be happy with your lot

Thats what I'm finding difficult, the last five words aren't really part of my DNA in any perspective of my life... 😀

Kryton57 - Member
or accept your fate / genetics / time / financial constraints and be happy with your lot
Thats what I'm finding difficult, the last five words aren't really part of my DNA in any perspective of my life...

In that case, get your debit card out and attempt to achieve it 🙄

I think you've mis-understood me; I'm listening to the advice. My mindset is of a nature not "to be happy with my lot" in general - that's how I'm wired I'm afraid.

It doesn't mean I'm going to leap out an buy a bike, it means I've read the above and need to decide how to move forward, albeit by more reading about training plans & applying it religously or more likely being coached Sept-March and see if that helps with next years development.

Unless you have huge reserves of natural ability it really does come down to training. You can train smart and do the right types of session but I reckon it's mostly about consistency and quality volume. Which is most probably why the new guy who's done double your miles is beating you.

If you want to move up from top 30 to top 20 you'll have to change something. Probably improving consistency and upping volume and getting in a solid winter of work. But given nature of your jobs, kids, family, life, travelling, etc. maybe that's not realistically achievable.

A coach would help get the most out of what you have available, but if you can't commit the time then it's probably not worth the expense.

I do ok at the moment as I have a fairly flexible job (and no commute!) that I can fit around family and training. If I didn't have that then my racing targets would be a lot more modest (TBH I'm not sure I'd even bother!)

Going back to the original question..... 😆

I have had a Grand Canyon 5.9 for a couple of months now and it is rapid. Not twitchy, comfy. I love it !

Accept that you'll never be better than mediocre, competing against other mediocre riders and examine why you feel the need to "race" anyway?

It sounds like you need to speak to a sports psychologist.

I think the scotroutes post is a bit sad, if no one but those gunning for glory raced it would be a sad state of affairs. Racing isn't about just coming first. Plus I have a load of mediocre results to my name but a few really good results, sometimes things just come together and it's waiting for those times.
I like posts like these, it only confirms it's not really about a great bike... For me xc shows that more than anywhere else.
Think if you don't want to race great but also you can get a lot out of racing even if it's for 22nd place.

If I didn't have that then my racing targets would be a lot more modest (TBH I'm not sure I'd even bother!)

This is me!

examine why you feel the need to "race" anyway?

Cos it's fun!

Cos it's fun!

Its also a "reason" to stay fit and healthy. I've always done some kind of sport and hate the feeling of being tired, chubby and lazy whilst watching crap TV and stuffing my face with a McCake.

Its also a "reason" to stay fit and healthy. I've always done some kind of sport and hate the feeling of being tired, chubby and lazy whilst watching crap TV and stuffing my face with a McCake.

What's wrong with you !

😉

? Plenty of us are fit and healthy riding bikes without the need to race.

Doesn't sound like you're enjoying it at all tbh.

Respect your honesty and openness.

If this is your third season racing just now, then you haven't been doing it for long. That's not a criticism at all, just be aware that chances are you'll be racing against people with loads more experience, and that counts for a lot.

You might be able to produce better numbers with a powermeter and a turbo, but that isn't everything and despite what others have said, volume and quality of training isn't everything either. If it was, then the hardest worker with the most ideal physiology would always win, and bike racing would be boring.

Much of XC racing (and crit racing too for that matter) is down to technique, and a common mistake is to confuse this with some kind of god-given natural talent. Experience and a willingness to concentrate on technique, and practice practice practice, can often give more advantage when the gun goes than a full winter of high-intensity turbo-smashing.

IMO there isn't a single panacea that will provide the success you crave - not all the hours in the world to train, not a well-structured training programme, not a 1.5k bike, not +/- 3psi tyre pressure, not a skills coaching course, not a year with a psychotherapist.

What will help is likely to be a bit of a few of these, more and more races under your belt, and taking time to set goals for yourself that are realistic and that won't upset you if you narrowly miss out on them. Some races are great, some are disastrous, most fall somewhere in between and the more you've done, the more you come to see this. This is for fun at the end of the day. If you're not enjoying it (overall that is, I don't mean you have to love every minute) then ultimately it's unlikely to end well.

Good luck.

Kryton - thanks so much for the response - hope it helped you to get that stuff out and written down. I'm very much the same - self coaching, and highly critical of myself - researching/educating myself as much as possible. I actually think this is a good trait if not taken to extremes.

Ultimately, I think mrblobby is on the right track - consistency and volume. To see the results improve significantly you are going to need to bump that W/Kg up - this will give you the sustained speed you are missing.

ac282 has a VERY good point - the only session you should be doing the day after the race is maybe 1hr zone1 recovery - especially if racing mid week - races are HARD, and doing 2 per week will provide all the intensity you need on a total volume of 6hrs.

My advice for the 2nd half of the season would be to sit down and plan to peak/focus on results at a couple of races on courses that you know suit you. Set some realistic goals, and commit to them by writing them down somewhere.
For example Race X, August, Top 33% of field result.

richardthird - Member
? Plenty of us are fit and healthy riding bikes without the need to race.
[b]Doesn't sound like you're enjoying it at all tbh.[/b]

It is possible to improve on 6hrs a week. Mileage is utterly irrelevant. A proper targetted training schedule with periodisation, taper and a realistic race schedule will achieve your goals.

I'm not dissimilar but I've spent on coaching and understanding training. Until you do this you are giving yourself a massive handicap. Your race schedule is symptomatic. If you truly give your all on Wednesday it's unlikely you will be able to do a high quality session until Saturday. I doubt a club run is high quality in terms of time in zone.

You also have to decide if 24:12 or xco is your priority and train for one ignoring results in the other.

Doing the same thing time after time and expecting different results is the definition of stupidity. Your Anthem gummed up last year - why would it not this year in the same conditions?

As we had this exact same discussion approx 12 months ago you really should break this cycle.

Ignore the doom mongers, just because they have embraced their inate crapness and are happy to pootle around at the back, doesn't mean you have to.
And there is enjoyment (of a different sort) to getting as much out of your body as is physically possible. As opposed to just putting as much into it as possible.

Get a coach sorted, get a decent one. (Both my best and worst seasons were coached. Bad coaches will muck you up, badly.) And it's been pointed out on several of your threads, your training is all over the place. A coach will help with this.

Use the rest of the 1500 for a training camp. Start negotiating with the wife now. The benefits of a week somewhere hot and sunny with few other interruptions to riding your bike can't be underestimated.

And as an aside, travelling sales.
Do you have opportunity during dead time to train? I know one of my colleagues runs, everywhere. Just finds a local sports centre (showers, changing rooms) then bangs an hour in whenever he can. Before his meetings, after his meetings, between his meetings........ i wish i still had his dedication.

PS my post is meant to be positive!

ghostlymachine makes an interesting point. Spend the cash on a Brompton, chuck it in the back of the car, train when you can 🙂

Use the rest of the 1500 for a training camp. Start negotiating with the wife now. The benefits of a week somewhere hot and sunny with few other interruptions to riding your bike can't be underestimated.

Blimey this would make a huge difference in the middle of winter. Right then Mrs B, I'm off for a week of riding my bike somewhere hot and sunny, leaving you with a 2 and 4 year old, and spending 1500 quid in the process. I think I can guess the reaction 🙂

Take the missus/kids with you.
Ride mornings, kids afternoon.

First, thanks for those that have taken the time with the last page of posts. I appreciate the honesty and the time taken, there's valuable stuff in there.

Re running/other activities - yes I can do this, started doing some running in Germany but succumbed to big meals and free beer, which is also part of my work (social relationship building) - but not an excuse - its ill discipline I know. in fact I was going to run last night as the local park is at the end of my road with a marked-out 1200m paved section around it but deferred to the Turbo as more "cycling specific".

I do think its a little unfair to state my program is haphazard. It is written down, periodized and pretty much goes:

Oct-Dec = Base
Dec-Mar = Build
Mar-May = Speciality XCO or XCM plan / B races
May-July= Maintain / B races
July-Aug- Maintain/rest/ A race (Bonty 24/12)
Aug = Rest (I do use a gym bike or go for socially paced rides but no real exertion)
Sept-Oct = Maintain / ride

I'll be honest and admit I'm pretty clueless about how much rest need after an XCO, I would have said 24-48hrs would be enough.

First up, it seems that you need to relax and enjoy your racing. As long as you can see some improvement I'd be happy. 6 hours a week isn't much, without some natural ability you're not going to be very competitive on that even with top quality coaching, so just get stuck into the racing and enjoy it!

Don't fret about kit, the last races I did (both team 24hrs, so not as serious as XCO) in 2012 were on a 2005 26" trance which weighed about 30lbs, but it had quick tyres, was fun to ride, and I was fit. We were 3rd at SITS and won Oktoberfest in Bristol.

But if you want a new bike for the hell of it (i.e. not to radically improve your results) bikescene have Stumpjumper Expert Carbon World Cup hardtails for a decent price frame only, though 🙂

What do you do as a base? Sorry if you have said already.

I've been doing triathlon training, and a lot of what is being banded about at the moment is the reverse periodization of more intensity/less volume over the winter months then build on this with volume as you get into the spring months. I have done this and just knocked 21 minutes off my previous standard distance tri

Regarding recovery, I would only be putting any intensity back in on a Tuesday or Wednesday after a Sunday race. You are older than me so will probably need to look at the longer end of things.

If I wanted to race again on Wednesday then i would take Monday off and do an easy spin on Tuesday.

I've been doing triathlon training, and a lot of what is being banded about at the moment is the reverse periodization of more intensity/less volume over the winter months then build on this with volume as you get into the spring months.

Depends what you are training for, probably works quite well for a long event like a triathlon...
http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2013/10/reverse-periodization.html

Probably not so well for short high intensity races.

What do you do as a base?

Club rides (not ideal I know), and/or 60-100k Z2 solo road rides.

Regarding recovery, I would only be putting any intensity back in on a Tuesday or Wednesday after a Sunday race. You are older than me so will probably need to look at the longer end of things.

If I wanted to race again on Wednesday then i would take Monday off and do an easy spin on Tuesday

Thanks ac282, I appreciate your input here ( 😉 ). Reading between the lines, you'd be saying that I'm worrying about "building" in a condensed Race period, When what I should be doing is forgetting that now because the work is done, and going rest/race over the weeks where I am racing every 3 days (Beastway Wednesdays mixed with the MSG weekends)?