What do I need to buy to make a flat white coffee?

Christ, so much pretentious bollocks about a milky coffee!

There is, but not on this thread. Coffee, like bikes, cars, wine, music, food etc can be good or it can be shit. You must appreciate that, surely? The OP wants to find the best coffee available for the least amount of money and faff – I can’t really criticise them for that.

I went to get a flat white last week but they wouldn’t do one as “receive had their own interpretation”

I’m under the impression it’s a recipe/ratio thing with no interpretation?

40ml espresso

120ml milk

I’m under the impression it’s a recipe/ratio thing with no interpretation?

The Aussies and Kiwis are still scrapping over who invented it, let alone agreeing on an exact recipe!  There are loads of slight variations, even in the best coffee shops. It’s typically a double espresso with steamed micro-foam milk, but without the ‘froth’ you get with other espresso milk drinks. The exact ratio varies, but it has a stronger coffee hit than a latte or cappuccino.

Wow, as predicted by someone up thread, I’ve disappeared down a rabbit hole…that James Hoffman video implies far too much faffing to me. I appreciate that many others enjoy the ritual/process involved but I tend towards laziness and impatience so I’m thinking a small (takes up minimum counter space*) espresso/steamer might be the answer.

So any specific “all in one” devices at the lower end of the price spectrum I should look out for (and any I should specifically avoid as they are crap)? Ease/speed of use is priority rather than absolute quality. And Mrs Vlad isn’t a coffee drinker so I don’t need high capacity.

Also, why don’t people just buy pre-ground coffee? (I’m not sure of purpose of owning your own grinder…)

* I’ll hide or dispose some of the gadgets Mrs Vlad clogs up our kitchen counter space with when she’s lot at work 😉

A second hand Gaggia baby/classic even de longhi Icona probably £30 would do but a bit plastic but without the grinder no control over how much spurting of the espresso everywhere if it’s a crappy rough supermarket grind

Also, why don’t people just buy pre-ground coffee? (I’m not sure of purpose of owning your own grinder…)

Pretty much the same reason that, given the choice, most people don’t eat tinned vegetables.

Also, why don’t people just buy pre-ground coffee? (I’m not sure of purpose of owning your own grinder…)

Reason 1.  Coffee starts to lose its flavour and stales much more rapidly once ground.  Freshly roasted beans, ground just before you brew will taste night and day better than pre-ground commodity coffee. If that’s important to you. If it’s not and you just want a caffeine hit, then pre-ground may work for you.

Reason 2. You can’t make genuine espresso with pre-ground as it’s not fine enough. You can make a dumbed down version if you use a pressurised basket, but proper espresso needs very finely ground coffee and the ability to make small adjustments to the grind size to dial in each new coffee.

Faffy? Yes. Worth it for the best achievable flavour? Yes.

@bloke…

Can you define “rapidly”?

If I get small batches of very finely ground coffee from a local roaster every couple of weeks, would I notice??

(Probably not as I haven’t gone all-in coffee snob…yet)

If I get small batches of very finely ground coffee from a local roaster every couple of weeks, would I notice??

No, possibly not depending on how ‘acquired’ your taste is. They will likely offer you an espresso grind too so a very good compromise, it’s what I do for AeroPress coffee (which is minimal faff once you get used to it). It’s pre ground supermarket coffee that’s no good in this situation.

Sage Bambino

Comandante C40 or similar

Normcore tamper 54mm

Distribution ring 54mm

WDT tool

Mini scales with timer

Naked/bottomless portafilter

Speciality coffee beans (roasted in the last week or so, ideally locally)

Good water (Tesco Ashbeck)

60 mins on YouTube and a few days of frustration

She likes a latte and it does a pretty nice hands off froth job

Beg your pardon?

If I get small batches of very finely ground coffee from a local roaster every couple of weeks, would I notice??

Depends how much you get through. I keep some at work in a sealed jar. It definitely gets worse if it’s left for too long, but up to a week I think it’s ok.

OP as folks shave said, the minimum amount of equipment to do this well would be

fancy bean to cup machine

or

OK small espresso machine, good grinder, milk jug

if what you want is strong coffee mixed with a big volume of foamy milk then you could use

strong coffee from your favoured source

foaming milk jug/heater. I got the Illy one for one of our children. I was surprised how effective it was.

folks have already suggested all of these, but having an OK espresso machine (La Spaziale Vivaldi) I figured the ‘I’ve used a coffee machine and a milk frother’ experience might help.

Generally I want no more than a couple of minutes making a coffee, then take it back to bed.

You may sneer, but this consists of

Mug of oat milk, couple of minutes in the microwave. Nespresso double espresso

Job jobbed

Oat milk makes a much nicer white coffee than cows milk IMO

No milk makes a much nicer coffee than cows or any milk IMO

😉

The exact ratio varies, but it has a stronger coffee hit than a latte or cappuccino

This seems up for debate – the first couple of results on google have it either equal, or the other way round:

Flat White Vs Cappuccino

https://coffeebros.com/blogs/coffee/flat-white-vs-cappuccino-every-difference-you-need-to-know

I reckon if you went to one of the coffee producing countries, went to a plantation and had a coffee made there by one of the workers, they’d make it in a stove top pot. Any chit chat about ultimate temperatures, grind size or other coffee related western ideals, they’d look at you as if you were mental.

This seems up for debate – the first couple of results on google have it either equal, or the other way round:

Yep, there is definitely no consensus on an exact recipe/ratio.  There are as many links claiming the opposite to those you posted for example:

“”The Cappuccino usually consists of a simple espresso and two parts milk froth – a liquid part and a solid milk froth topping which usually rises slightly over the edge of the cup. The Flat White, on the other hand, is prepared with a double Espresso Ristretto – which is a more concentrated version of espresso. By reducing the amount of water and flowtime, the espresso comes out a little stronger”.

The thing I have found is that all decent coffee houses have their own interpretation of Latte, cappuccino, macchiato, flat white etc.  ISTR there is an Italian espresso institute which tries to codify these things, but their definition of (for example) a cappuccino is pretty far removed from what you’ll get in a lot of coffee shops.  Not just the chain shops, but good independent speciality coffee shops. They probably don’t even try with the flat white because of it’s southern hemisphere origins, so it’s a free for all.  It’s a bit like a Chicken Jalfriezi in one curry house will be as mild as you like and in another will be like napalm.

I’m fine with that – I don’t want a rule bound homogeneous product, I want to experience different interpretations and the skill of the Barista.

Some of the comments remind me of the time we did a ride to Blackpool for fish & chips, and I tried to order a flat white.

I got a very long suffering look from the waitress who said,

“We’re a chippy love, I can do you a milky coffee?”

Oat milk makes a much nicer white coffee than cows milk IMO

fact.

More consistent out of the carton. Creamier texture when foamed. More forgiving when steaming, whisking, or frothering.

I understand some baristas are trained on oat milk before attempting cow milk.

also, lower carbon footprint and lower water consumption for production than other milks.

I reckon if you went to one of the coffee producing countries, went to a plantation and had a coffee made there by one of the workers, they’d make it in a stove top pot.

Why stop there? Hunter-gatherers might well have chewed the fruit fresh off the tree.

I understand some baristas are trained on oat milk before attempting cow milk.

also, lower carbon footprint and lower water consumption for production than other milks.

As with all these things, it’s not that simple.  My vegetarian wife likes Oatly Barista in her coffee and I have it occasionally as an alternative to dairy. It does froth quite well with my espresso machine’s steam wand.  She prefers the taste to milk, I don’t but I think it’s OK. Even as an omnivore I have issues with the dairy industry so would love oat milk to be an ethical and environmentally sound option.  Seems it might not be, or at least not as much as we might like to think.  Everything we buy and consume has an environmental impact. I get that, but I think some of these companies are borderline dishonest in the way they market the eco benefits of some products.  Including oat milk.

“Oat milk is killing the planet The billion-dollar industry has duped vegan activists”.

The article title is a bit OTT (“killing the planet”) and there are bound to be alternative takes on it, but just pointing out that no option is without impact.

Re oat milk. Yes it is good. They are not all the same though. Oatly Barista is very easy to steam to nice flat white consistency. Similar to whole cows milk. Some other non-dairy milks are hard. Soy milk is a tricky one for me as it can’t be heated as much. Still doable. I did a course and was trained on cows milk and it translated fine to oat milk.

When I was in New Zealand 15+ years ago you could get a decent Flat White almost anywhere. They did invent them though

What the skibadee? Kiwis invented flat whites? Is this factual or one of them Kiwi things they say? True bro?

They invented pavlova too apparently. So legend has it. Although a point argued by Aussies who claim they invented it.

I do hate asking for espresso though. “Short black?”   “No, 6’2″ white!”

Or “can I just have a black coffee?”    “A long black?”     fffffffaaaaarrrkkkkkkkkkkk

I know interpretation differs but when I order a flat white, what I’m looking for is a strong coffee shot with less milk, that’s still frothed to give a creamier texture. It’s probably closer in flavour to what you’d get in Italy when you order a cappuccino over what is made in the UK, which usually has more milk in a bigger cup.

I’m not a big fan of pods but my workplace got a L’Or machine that can take the XL pods which give an excellent strong shot of coffee, plus a Dualit frother using full fat milk (or my personal favourite Alpro Almond Barista which is slightly sweet and less calorific than oat / full) you get a really creamy texture.

Combine the two and it’s a better flat white than most local coffee shops manage (which has been increasingly poor here) we’ve stopped buying coffee out at work with a total outlay of about £100.

I came to say a beanie hat that doesn’t cover your ears, some short trousers and an organic cotton chore jacket, but it seems I’ve misjudged the crowd…

they’d look at you as if you were mental.

Sure, but let the coffee nerds have their fun, eh?

That UnHerd article is absolutely diabolical.  Here are the reasons he offers for why Oat milk is ‘killing the planet’:

• It is expensive
• Some of the claims in Oatly’s marketing may be questionable (but no source is provided)
• It is not as nutrient rich as dairy milk
• Someone who owns shares in Oatly donated to Donald Trump
• People who protest against cow milk are entitled middle-class ponces
• Oatly once did a sponsorship deal with a petrol station company
• The Pesticide Action Network has found pesticide residues on many grains, including barley, wheat and oats.

That’s it.

Incidentally, the author is a dairy farmer and writer from Herefordshire.

I don’t actually buy oat milk, or any other alternative, but I wouldn’t base any purchasing decisions on the 6th form guff in that article.

I don’t actually buy oat milk, or any other alternative, but I wouldn’t base any purchasing decisions on the 6th form guff in that article.

Me neither, as I said we buy Oatly. The link was a lazy Google – not claiming it’s rigorously researched and impartial. There are plenty of other (possibly more credible) sources which either promote or raise concerns with dairy and all the alternatives. I’m just saying that in my case, every time I think I’ve found something I can consume with a clear conscience, the briefest look under the surface can have me doubting it. YMMV

Some of the comments remind me of the time we did a ride to Blackpool for fish & chips, and I tried to order a flat white.

I got a very long suffering look from the waitress who said,

“We’re a chippy love, I can do you a milky coffee?”

This pleases me greatly

So any specific “all in one” devices at the lower end of the price spectrum I should look out for

The Ronco Flat White Magician, an astonishing all-in-one device with two funnels, one for milk and one for coffee granules. Pour in, press the button and seconds later a perfect flat white pours out of the machine and all for just £9.99. Would have been available every Christmas in the 1980s, probably. In a parallel universe…

every time I think I’ve found something I can consume with a clear conscience, the briefest look under the surface can have me doubting it.

Yeah I certainly suffer from that!  Personally I suspect Oat milk is probably better for the environment than (most) dairy milk, but I still buy organic dairy anyway. But I take my coffee black, so maybe that puts me back on the level??!

Looking at some (very) cheap espresso machines on Amazon (shoot me…)

Some are advertised as 3.5 bar and some more expensive ones are 15 bar.

Would I be correct in assuming 15 bar means it is faster or has higher capacity? But 3.5 bar should be sufficient for one person whose not really in a hurry???

Christ, so much pretentious bollocks about a milky coffee!

box of Kenco flat white sachets , and a kettle of hot water. Job jobbed

For maximum annoyance , buy them from Amazon

3.5 is not enough to make espresso. Get the 15.

Some are advertised as 3.5 bar and some more expensive ones are 15 bar.

As above, 3.5 bar is too low. Around 9 bar is the sweet spot for espresso. Higher isn’t really better. 15 bar will work though. Some machines come set to 15 bar because it allows people with no grinder to use coarser pre-ground coffee in a pressurised basket.  If you are looking to grind your own (and enjoy fresher more flavourful coffee as a result), something near 9 bar used with a non-pressurised basket might be better long term.

Some machines have adjustable pressure valves and some which don’t (Gaggia Classic, Rancillio Silver) can be easily modified by swapping a spring.  Gaggia Classics are a good second hand buy. Cheap, well built, easy to work on and modify, loads of spares available.

box of Kenco flat white sachets , and a kettle of hot water. Job jobbed

See also powdered egg, instant mash etc. if you like that sort of thing.

I was just coming in to post “a ticket to New Zealand” but I see you have that covered, well done chaps, as you were.

What gets sold as a Flat White over here is far too weak and milky.