What (commercial) 4×4

Work are considering giving me a new car. We need a bit of offroad capability and a decent tow-weight (at least 1.5t) We were thinking of a Mitzu ISX, but they’ve stopped doing comercial ones.

What else is out there? (commercial due to tax)

Do you have to ask? Toyota Hilux of course.

^^^what chewkw said – Hilux… if its good enough for the Taliban…

There are a few 4×4 vans on the market, Merc Sprinter for one. They look very capable if you tick the ‘big tyres’ box on the options list 🙂

KIA Sorrento XC, not sure if they are doing them in the new shape though!

There are a few 4×4 vans on the market, Merc Sprinter for one.

If you are towing then unless your employers have a ‘O’ Licence then you can’t go down the 4wd van route as you’ll be over the 3.5t train weight. The sprinter is plated at 3.5t so it can’t tow anything without an O Licence. What you buy needs to be one of the weird class of ‘dual purpose vehicles’ – 4×4, 5 seats, separate load space, under 3 tonnes. They are commercial vehicles in the eye of the taxman but cars in the eyes of VOSA (so long as their plated weight is under 3 tons) which means you can tow a 1.5t plated trailer, have an all up plated weight of 4.5t (or more – whatever the max train weight of the pickup is) and not need an Operators licence and tacho.

All that said – really do your research as to what does and doesn’t fall into that class before you buy, maybe going so far as to write to VOSA, theres a sparsity of clear, concise and up to date instruction out there. The DPV definition changed a bit a year or so ago so its difficult to know whether information you find takes that change into account or not.

thanks for that Maccruiskeen, I was aware that there were some rules once you went over 3-3.5T but couldn’t remember where they kick in and what they apply for.

otherwise, looking for the car in-front then.

Don’t buy a base spec Hi-Lux, ours couldn’t pull the skin off custard.
Had good experience of using Discovery’s as tow vehicles and there is a commercial version. Freelander may be sufficient for your requirements.

actually – think that weight limit of dual purpose vehicles now relates to a max unladen weight (2050kg), but they also have to be able (on paper) to be able to also carry 1000kg. Hilarious when you see one loaded, because of the rear seats the whole pickup bed hangs out behind the rear wheels – looks like a shitting dog.

You might find it hard to tow a trailer with out coming under tacho rules if the vehicles train weight is over 3.5t. I have come across this problem at work with cars and trailers and had to have the trailer down plated to stay under the 3.5t limit.

If you have a commercial vehicle and tow a trailer of 1.5t you will more than likely have a train weight of over 3.5t, you have to remember it’s the maximum plated weight of the vehicle you use for the calculation.

So if the vehicle has a maximum plated weight of 2.5t your trailer could only be plated for 1t to stay with in 3.5t. I hope that makes sense.

you will more than likely have a train weight of over 3.5t,

this is where the Dual Purpose Vehicle thing comes in – its a funny loophole but you basically sidestep that train weight limit. All these funny 5 seat 4×4 pickups that have appeared over the last 5-10 years are basically built to fit in that loophole.

What about the Citroen C Crosser Enterprise? It’s virtually the same as the Mitsubishi Outlander but comes out a few grand cheaper!

http://vanleasingmadesimple.com/van-leasing/citroen/c-crosser-enterprise/

I can’t see how there can be a loop hole round it when it says in the tacho rules any vehicle over 3.5t or combo is in scope and needs to have a tacho fitted. They talked about fitting them to our cars so I can’t see how a pick up with five seats falls outside.

See page 7 http://www.dvtani.gov.uk/uploads/publications/general/DrivershoursandTachographRulesforGoodsVehiclesNorthernIrelandandEurope.pdf

I can’t see how a pick up with five seats falls outside.

A very specific class of pick up does:

* constructed/adapted for carriage of both passengers and goods
* a vehicle with an unladen weight not exceeding 2040kgs
* constructed/adapted that the driving power of the engine can be transmitted to all wheels
* must have rigid roof, transverse passenger seats and rear windows amongst other things.

So two seat 4×4 pickups aren’t ‘dual purpose’ but double cabs are, similarly 5 seat 4×4 cars (like a discovery) aren’t because they don’t have a separate load space.

Dual-purpose vehicles, showman’s goods vehicles and other vehicles that don’t need an operator’s licence

There are several other categories of vehicle that don’t need a goods vehicle operator’s licence, including:

Dual-purpose (road and off-road) vehicles. This includes all dual-purpose vehicles, such as Land Rovers, Range Rovers, Jeeps, 4x4s and their trailers – that are designed to go over rough ground as well as on roads, provided they do not weigh more than 2,040 kilograms when unladen.
Travelling showmen’s goods vehicles and trailers. This is a goods vehicle that is permanently fitted with a living van or some other special type of body or superstructure, and which forms part of the equipment of the show of the person whose name is registered under the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994. It must also be a vehicle registered under that Act in the name of the person who is a travelling showman and is the sole user of the vehicle for the sole purposes of their business.
Passenger-carrying vehicles.
Vehicles used to carry goods within aerodromes.
Uncompleted vehicles on test or trial.
Vehicles on their way to a Department for Transport examination being presented laden at an examiner’s request.
Vehicles with permanent ‘fixed equipment’ such as a winch or generator.
Tower wagons and trailers carrying goods related to the work of the tower wagons.
Road rollers and trailers.
Trailers that are not carrying goods as their primary purpose but doing so incidentally in connection with roadbuilding, maintenance or repair.
Steam-propelled vehicles.

As far as I was aware, tachos go with operators licenses, which you don’t need until you go over 3.5t gvw, the gtw just needs to be within the vehicles plated limit and your driving license. For example, I have a B+E license, Land Rover that is as good as nearly 3 ton and a plated tow weight of 3.5 ton, gtw 6.5t, no operators lisence, so no tacho.

Quite ready to be told I’m wrong.

no the O licence refers to the GTW not the just the GVW, and thats the plated weights – you can get done towing and empty plated trailer. But an O licence only applies if you are using the vehicle in the context of business and employment – so you can use your GTW to tow your caravan on hols or your yacht to the lake, but not to tow goods for work. Similarly you can drive 7.5 tonne trucks without an O licence so long as its not in connection with business.

this would be easier if some hard and fast advice was published by VOSA somewhere, try googling – you’ll just find pages of discussions like this – even on forums of traffic cops who struggle with the definition of Dual Purpose Vehicles – but nothing clear and current. Its a mess. To be sure you need to write to VOSA telling them exactly what you’ll tow and in what context and wait for them to write back with their opinion – which although they’d be ones prosecuting you they’ll stress does not constitute any kind of advice or legal fact.

I happened across a site that published dozens of freedom of information request to VOSA in an attempt to give some clarity – can’t find it now though

I’m in 2, if not 3 exemption categories, so that’ll be why we’ve never bothered at work.

Not all sprinters are 3.5t GVW 😉
There are at least 4 different GVWs available.

Even if something is exempt from having an O-license, you may still need to keep an official driving/working hours log. We maintain several vehicles that are O-license exempt, and only need a Tacho for speedlimiter/speedo purposes, yet the drivers still have to maintain drivers hours logs.

Oh, and any road going vehicle is O-license exempt if it’s not being used for hire or reward/in connection with a buisness. There’s no distinction between hiring a 7.5t rigid, and a 44t artic if you want to move house, just that one isn’t commonly available to hire for a couple days, and the other is only around because of it’s license class, which is gradually becoming a legacy class.

Not all sprinters are 3.5t GVW
There are at least 4 different GVWs available.

non are light enough to tow 1.5t and get under the 3.5gtw though

You can also tow without a tacho in some cases under domestic driver rules, look here:

http://www.transportsfriend.org/hours/domestic.html

My company makes me fill out a drivers log book every day, even though technically I only need to fill it out if I drive for more than four hours, with a trailer. Which is maybe, once a year 🙂 The reason I have to fill it out is because my Transit has a tow bar.

I also understand you don’t need a tacho if under 30miles from the vehicles base?

The original poster was asking about ‘commercial’ from (I guess) a Road Tax (ok, shoot me for using the term) perspective, not from a commercial business perspective.

I’ve looked at this also as my wife has horses and we recently purchased a horsebox. She use to tow. Its bloody complicated and doesn’t help with the various new rules for younger drivers.

And according to the equestrian press, if she wins £10 at a competition the journey is classed as ‘for reward’…

br, yes, we are not really looking for a BIG 4×4 as such, but I need something a bit more robust than the van type vehcile we presently use. Personal tax is a bit of an issue as well hence the commercial range. Hilux would be lovely, but prob too big. Outlander, we have one and its about right. The ISX (outlander little bro) would be great but they’ve stopped the commercial one. I don’t need (want) a 3T tow weight, as that would mean I would end up towing stuff everywhere rather than getting on with my job. 2-1.8T tow weight would be perfect for the occasional tow.

Surely if you win money in a private competition, you don’t need to declare it, unless it really starts to add up!

There have been occasions of DVLA not only weight-checking horseboxes but also the licensing of them.

yetidave – you may or may not be old enough to remember Superstars and how Lynn Davies had to go ‘pro’ to take the cheque?

Like I have said above you really need to think about weight and tacho rules see the below extract

DRIVERS’ HOURS RULES Section 1:
EU & AETR rules on drivers’ hours
The EU rules (Regulation (EC) 561/2006) apply to drivers of most vehicles used for the carriage of goods – defined as goods or burden of any description – (including dual purpose vehicles) where the maximum permissible weight of the vehicle, including any trailer or semi-trailer, exceeds 3.5 tonnes and where
the vehicle is used within the UK or between the UK and other EU and EEA countries and Switzerland. Vehicle operations that take place off the public road or vehicles that are never used to carry goods on
a public road are out of scope. Additionally drivers who never carry goods or passengers in the course
of their employment are not considered to be within scope of the regulations. For example, this covers
operations such as the delivery and recovery of hire vehicles and empty vehicles taken for annual test. A driver is anyone who drives a vehicle or is carried on the vehicle in order to be available for driving.

Unlike Mac states the rules do cover dual purpose vehicles as stated above in this document.

http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/Transport_Theme_files/Goods_vehicles_tachograph_hours_1111_3.pdf

At work we use cars and tow trailers to recover our goods at times and had to down plate the trailer from 2700kgs to 1240kg so that the total train weight of car and trailer falls under 3500kgs to stay away from tacho rules.

We talked about getting crew cab pick up but again the tacho problem comes up. If we where going to get them the Mitsubishi L200 was at the top of the list. Not sure how true this is but we were told the L200 was about the only one that could run in 4wd on the road in bad weather for long periods with out doing damage to the gearbox.

Its a swamp: I was talking about O Licenses not tachos- you may need a tacho (even though you don’t need an O license), depending on what aspect of business the towing is part of i.e. if its part of your job to move things around with you – for instance moving your own kit to a jobs site doesn’t call for a tacho. But for hire and reward – i.e. towing things is what your customers pay you to for then then you do need a tacho.

That said some of the towing rules were changed just a few weeks ago