What are the advantages for wider bars and a shorter stem?

Just getting back into the biking scene (loving it) I noticed that the folks I’m ridding with have tended to go with wider bars, but with a shorter stem. What are the pros n cons of such a set up?

more control and stability, less easy to fit through trees.

Looks cool.

I think TT lengths are a bit longer these days – or is that just an impression?

Shorter stem makes for faster more direct steering and your weight over the bars and on the front wheel. Wider flatter bars makes for more positive controllable steering – I have a theory that the width of your hands when doing press UPS should be about the width of your bars. Only downside is hitting things…

Wider bars are can compensate for the trend of short stems 😉

Shorter stem has less weight on front…

Quicker steering but when climbing steep stuff the front end can get very twitchy…

Trend 😀

Nowadays a 90mm stem is generally considered “long” 🙄

Get your saddle in the right position (correct position of hips relative to knees, relative to feet, pedals, etc) and then choose a stem based on the reach that feels comfortable.

Do not move the saddle around to get the reach right for a certain stem length. The saddle should never be moved to accomodate a preference in reach.

The arguement is that short stems and wide bars add control. I personally think it’s a bit of a fad but then I may be converted 😀 It very much depends on your body shape/ height/ etc and frame geometry. As I said, get the saddle in the right place then pick a stem length to get the reach correct.

/Boring post

It’s not really a trend if by that you mean its a recent thing. Gary Fisher introduced the idea of long(er) TT and shorter stem way back in mists of time. I think it was called Genesis geometry?

In my view, the trend that has emerged is more about the style of riding and the kit has really emerged in response to that.

These days people are more likely to want to have fun going down hill and along and see the uphill part as still important, but not a race. The ‘trend’ is for moderate/steady pace uphill and then much quicker downhill. When I started riding, XC was the dominant discipline and so rides all tended to reflect that, whereas now, the DH scene, while maybe no dominant, is certainly very prevalent.

The shorter stem/wider bar combo puts your weight in a better position for this type of riding.

The shorter stem centres your weight and quickens the steering response, while the wider bar gives you more leverage and more control over the steering.

In effect the wider bar compensates for the shorter stem by slowing down the steering response.

If you think about the arc that the end of the bar describes in being turned, you need to turn the bars more for each degree the wheel turns, thus is reduces the sensitivity of the front wheel to bar inputs. The extra leverage also makes it easier to lean the bike over in turn.

But as with everything, it’;s entirely up to everyone what they chose to ride and there is no right or wrong way really, only what works for you. Not everyone likes the short stem wide bar approach and so while the physics may hold true for everyone, it’s kinda pointless if you don’t happen to like that particular set up.

This has just rather conveniently appeared:

Mondraker Super Short Stems

How can a shorter stem quicken steering? You hands remain almost the same distance from the steerer so leverage remains the same and anyway the steering geometry is not changed.

It alters weight distribution and alters feel.

TJ I think (which means I am not 100% sure) that it is the same principle as wider bars slowing down steering, just reversed.

If you draw a line, perpendicular to the bars,through the centre of the stem, then look at the arc that this line describes as it is turned left and right, the further away from the centre of the stem you are, the wider that arc is for the same degree of movement at the wheel. That has the effect of slowing the steering input down; i.e. you need to turn a wider arc at 100mm away from the centre of the stem than at 50mm, for the same degree of arc described by the wheel.

Honestly I could be entirely wrong about this and like you, I think the biggest difference is where it puts your weight. I don’t claim to be any good at geometry, but I do claim to be a reasonable bike rider so I can put my hand on my heart and say that it’s a better set up where bike control at speed is concerned.

geetee. wider bars do alter the distance your hands are from the centre line so give more leverage. However stem length make almost no difference to the distance your hands are from the centreline. Pythagoras and all that

I guess you’re right. Like you said before, it’s really more about weight distribution.

Thats my feeling – the odd thing is I have been altering stem length and there is a difference to be felt I am sure – Nd I am not the most sensitive of riders to set up

A slack head angle moves the front wheel axle forward, combined with a short stem, this decreases the rider weight over the front wheel, making it more susceptible to being knocked around. Funnily, on most bikes the slacker the angle, the shorter the stem generally.
This also makes the bike feel more cramped.

(Very) wide bars help fix this by:
forcing your weight forward
straightening your arms, effectively lengthening the cockpit
adding leverage to compensate for the increased trail feedback.

Whether it’s a good thing or not I guess depends where, what and how you ride.

The simple answer is to try it. It maybe trendy but it’s a trendy which has been happening for more than the last 10 years. Ok, bars have got a LOT wider recently but I cannot see us going back to the days of thinking 23″ bars are wide.

Lot’s of debate about mountain bike fit. Road bike tradition is to follow what DanW says, that is get the saddle in a KOPS position then adjust the reach accordingly. However, a school of thought exists that says that is not very helpful for mountain bikes, as you are standing and moving more on them and handling is far more important. I think it all depends on how you like to ride your bike.

I ride my bike slowly uphill because I’m not very fit, and slowly down hills because last time (years ago) I road fast I fell off and snapped my hand

Wider bars + shorter stem = better body position when out of the saddle attacking stuff, that’s why BMX/DH/4X/jump bikes have been that way for years.

Putting your saddle in the correct position, then obtaining good fit by adjusting stem lengths is a road based approach, it’ll give you good body position for pedalling in the saddle but at compromise to handling out of the saddle.

Since everyone is wanting to be tech masters now since people no longer XC but “trail” ride, IMO there is more concentration on skills, the wider bar/shorter stem aids in this. Priorities are turning towards handling. It is MTBing after, you are sort of encouraged to have some form of off road handling skills, if not, you may aswell go ride fireroads on a CX bike.

What i don’t get is this trend for longer TTs. I can appreciate that when people have grown up with long stems, they’ve got used to the space they have in the saddle, then go to short stem, lose their space, compensate with long tt which then compromises on handling out of the saddle. With the length of some TTs now, the wheelbases are getting near DH wheelbase lengths, too stable for trail stuff, making handling difficult.

(Very) wide bars help fix this by:
forcing your weight forward
straightening your arms, effectively lengthening the cockpit
adding leverage to compensate for the increased trail feedback.

But the wider the bar the more you arms angled away from straight ahead and thus being at an angle the wider the bar the more the angle increases and thus the forward length decreases..

this increase of angle also points to increase sweep for wider bars..

The saddle position is set first, for comfortable pedalling, as DanW says above.
Shorter stems (as used on modern bike geometries) quicken steering, to compensate for the trend for slacker head angles. Wider bars then compensate for the shorter stem and bring weight forward, closer to the “original” position.

Dont forget other things they do.

I find they open up my lungs which helps me breath.
They also keep me in the lead when racing on singletrack 🙂

They also give you more choice of hand position. Buy some wide ones and then you could trim them to as size you like having experimented first.

http://richardcunningham.pinkbike.com/blog/Tech-Tuesday-Handlebars-How-Wide-Affects-Your-Ride.html

Nice vid explaining wide bars

This is such a good forum, thanks guys.

However stem length make almost no difference to the distance your hands are from the centreline. Pythagoras and all that

S’an interesting point, that…

I’ve always thought stem length was more about ergonomics. That, and the fact that longer stems put you more over the front, thus weighting the front wheel more and making steering a bit ‘heavier’. But I don’t see as how stem length affects things there;surely it’s the headtube angle/fork rake which has the greater bearing on this?

Shorter stems have you sitting back more, so more weight over back wheel, makes for more better downhilling. No?

As for bar width; longer = greater leverage for sure, but again in’t it to do with ergonomics? I wooduv thought that bar width should correspond to shoulder width, and that there’s probbly an ‘optimum’ length according to how long you are. Ergo, long bloke with wide shoulders, longer bar is better. Small bod with narrower shoulders, shorter bar is better. Certainly, I don’t feel comfortable with very wide bars.

As the others have said, the current trend (trend as in becomming the norm rather than new equipment design) is towards “Trail riding” or “OverbikedTrailMincing” as it is known as for the majority. People want to ride downhill and plod in between so look for (usually) long travel skill compensation on what are really ‘normal’ XC routes.

While this has it’s appeal I like to ride what used to be called a ‘mountainbike’ so go for the correct fit for pedalling and carefully choose frame geometry, stem length, etc to ensure handling is as I wish. Bikes are designed for riding after all! 😀

The only things that matter regardless of all other factors is body position relative to pedals (correct biomechanics for pedalling) and body position relative to wheels (correct wieght distribution for handling characteristics). Frame design may mean a short stem is well suited but I don’t understand the fad of shorter and shorter stems regardless of all other factors such as geometry.

Enjoy the trails and see what works for you 😀

Apart from what has already been said, other pros of wide bars for me are that they open up my shoulders and bend my elbows which puts me in a more aggresive position. Also for sharp cornering they encourage the correct body positioning i.e. twisting shoulders and torso into the bend.

How can a shorter stem quicken steering?

The further your hands are away from the headset, the increased length your hands need to travel for the same angle rotated (greater arc length) so it feels faster because you move your hands less distance for the same angle change.

How can a shorter stem quicken steering?
The longer the stem, the greater the “tiller” effect

nsdog – but altering the stem length has almost no effect on how far your hands are from the steering axis

Dirt did an article about stem length. Gist is a longer stem doesn’t necessarily mean more weight over the front wheel. Reaching forward can actually push the bulk of your weight backwards. A shorter stem holds your shoulders and therefore weight over the bars, thus keeping the from wheel weighted. It was supported by diagrams which explained it clearer that I do.

Wide bars also offer more room for moving brake levers further in etc. Having ridden DH type stuff for so long, I like my brakes a long way in for one finger braking. On bars like the original EA70, there was not really enough room.

I do think some bars are mentally wide these days – not sure how you are supposed to get between trees on narrow tracks!

Regards to bar width, wider isn’t the only part to concider. You have a natural strongest point regards to the distance your hands are apart. I use the press up analogy, they are harder with your hands close together, move them out a little they get easier. At some point they start getting harder again. For me 711 is perfect for someone a foot taller this may be 780..

TJ

Consider a set of 650mm wide bars at 120 mm, 100mm, 50mm and 40mm from the steering axis.
The distance from the steering axis to the tip of the bar is 346mm, 340mm, 328mm and 327mm respectively. So the change in distance of arc length varies by at most 2mm for a 5 degree bar turn, or 14 mm for a 45 degree bar turn. You decide if its significant.

measure of angle/360 = L/Circumference.

(5/360)*(2pi*r) = L

r 5deg arclength 45deg arclength
346 30.1788888889 271.61
340 29.6555555556 266.9
328 28.6088888889 257.48
327 28.5216666667 256.695

My personal preference is for short stems as I reckon that a smaller cockpit gives more control. You make smaller movements of the body to shift your weight forward or backward, so you can do weight transfers faster.

I made this stort stem/wide bar conversion on the weekend and wish I’d tried it ages ago. The improvements were massive and I did not notice a hinderence in climbing ability.
I’ve been riding my present bike for over 2 years now and thought I had it as dialled as I could ever get it. How I was wrong.

nsdog…
I agree with your explanation that smaller hand movements for a given turning arc will equate to quicker/twitchier steering.
It took me a while with a few diagrams to understand what you’re on about up there with all those numbers too.
It appears that you’ve contradicted yourself however doesn’t it??
For a 45 degree turn there is only a 14mm change in the distance that my hand moves. That seems insignificant to me.

pesonally I wouldnt like anything wider than I got on my Felt 650 espicially on longer road sections.Stock 580mm wide 30 mm rise handlebars and 100 mm stem is responsive enough for me also on rough steep single track.

but I also only have 80mm travel so I dont need wider handlebars

hzururbe12 – Member
pesonally I wouldnt like anything wider than I got on my Felt 650 espicially on longer road sections.Stock 580mm wide 30 mm rise handlebars and 100 mm stem is responsive enough for me also on rough steep single track.

I couldn’t ride a bike with 580 bars and 100mm stem. Mate had 660s on hsi stumpjumper with a 90mm stem and I couldn’t sit confortably on it at all.

My regular bike has 750mm bars and 50mm stem – I gradually increased my bar width – 680 – 710 – 725 – 750. Every time I went wider, I liked it and stuck with it – honestly expected I’d be trimmign the 750s, but haven’t, and I’m unlikely to do so now.

Thing is, it’s all personal preference. My 750s suit me, just as much as 580s suit the chap above, neither of us is right. Trial and error is the only way.

you bars should be 100mm wider than you shoulders. FACT

It appears that you’ve contradicted yourself however doesn’t it??
For a 45 degree turn there is only a 14mm change in the distance that my hand moves. That seems insignificant to me.

Hugor, past experience tells me you have good grasp of logic, but you have misfired here. I don’t see any contradiction. I never commented on the significance of the size of the hand movement, I just calculated them to illustrate the argument. 😆

In fact I left the assement of the significance up to you. To quote myself:

You decide if its significant.