Well it went a bit quiet in here when I watched this…

These same old “I’m a good driver so I can go fast” arguments often leave me wondering who they’re trying to convince. Do you think the people who crash, considered themselves to not be good enough to drive. No, they think they’re up to it.

People have accidents, make mistakes, me, you, everyone. Roads are bloody dangerous full of big things going fast. Why not leave yourself room for error/manoeuvre/reaction on the basis of just incase?

Reaction time does not decrease much with skill and training. Your kinetic energy and damage on impact increases with speed however skilled you are.

In off-piste skiing and avalanche awareness we have a saying “the mountain does not know you are an expert”

In road safety perhaps people ought to say “the muppet whose car you are about to hit does not know you are a self-deluding over-confident cockwomble who thinks basic physics doesn’t apply to him…” 😉

Ro5ey – Member

I’m not surprised he didnt see the the car either… it was probably 1/2 a mile away !!

And yet the Police investigator says there’s “no reason” why he didn’t see the bike. Going in circles a little bit but this is important, people really seem to be going away from this with the idea that what happened here is somehow OK, and that’s the sort of attitude that lets it happen again. You should be surprised that he didn’t see the bike. And if you think it’s OK that he didn’t, it could be you next.

These same old “I’m a good driver so I can go fast” arguments often leave me wondering who they’re trying to convince. Do you think the people who crash, considered themselves to not be good enough to drive. No, they think they’re up to it.

90% of people think they’re better than average drivers.

I think you’ll find that those people who like driving fast are also normally interested in improving their driving skills, maintaining their vehicle to high standards, and normally genuinely care about the standard of their driving.

Nope. Government stats don’t support you with that assertion I’m afraid. Pretty much everyone likes to drive fast.

A staggering 70% of drivers admit to speeding, which is especially dangerous in busy and built-up areas. Think! Dept of Transport

From the AA – hardly an anti-driving organisation

Probably right about speed not being the main contributor though – from the same source:

Speeding is a contributory factor in over 30% of accidents.3

. I assume 70% of accidents come from something else.

Agree on the focus by government and police on speed being so wrong not being very helpful too – aggression, poor attentiveness and general lack of respect for the rules are the main risks in my experience as a cyclist

it could be you next.

How’s it going to be me or you ?

I don’t ride a motorbike

I don’t drive at 100 mile an hour

And I don’t treat a public highway as a personnal playground.

How about you ?

In off-piste skiing and avalanche awareness we have a saying “the mountain does not know you are an expert”

No but as a knowledgeable expert you can quite safely ski faster, with more awareness, and a greater margin of safety in a dangerous mountain environment than someone with far less training. You have an awareness of where it’s safe to push yourself and where you need to back off because the risks are greater.

I’m sorry you think I’m a cockwomble, but the likelyhood is at any given speed, because of my extra training, and to some extent the vehicle I drive then I’m probably a safer driver than you. Let me guess, did you pass your test quite a few years ago and then haven’t bothered to do anything to improve your driving skills since? Same probably applies to most others on here who are so high and mighty about speeding.

.

Ro5ey – Member

How’s it going to be me or you ?

You’re saying that you’re not surprised by a dangerous lack of observation which lead to a man’s death. If you think it’s OK, then yes, it could be you next time, guilty of causing death by careless driving.

I think you’ll find that lack of concentration or observation is a far bigger cause of accidents than speed.

Yes, that will be why the motorbike death rate is higher than the bicycle death rate – cyclists just pay more attention.

because of my extra training, and to some extent the vehicle I drive then I’m probably a safer driver than you.

I don’t work for the Police so poor troll.

White van man?

Why are people replying to this rebel guy,he’s clearly an idiot who is just posting to wind you up.leave the driving god to his delusions and go and make a sandwich or something 🙂

Rebel, you talk some shit. I’ve done plenty of advanced driving courses whilst in my previous career included with the police here and the RUC, as was. Your view of what makes a good driver appears to be your ego and what car you own. Try doing a course were they just don’t take your money off you, play in car and give you nice certificate to remember the day but require you to achieve the required standard to become a member.

Try doing a course were they just don’t take your money off you, play in car and give you nice certificate to remember the day but require you to achieve the required standard to become a member.

Like, the IAM advanced course perhaps? Done that, passed thank you.

Ro5ey

Really don’t know some are making this the car drivers fault

Sorry, but it is the drivers fault primarily for the following reasons:

1) The only single element that we can remove, that with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY would have prevented an collision between the car and the bike, is the cars move across the bikers path. Any other option (biker going slower or whatever only MIGHT reduce the probability of the collision occurring.

2) The highway code is quite clear. It is the responsibility of the driver of the vehicle crossing the opposing carriage way to ensure it is “safe” for them to do so. No Caveats are attached regarding the possible speed of approaching traffic or the time you have available to look etc. You must be 100% sure the road is clear and it is safe for you to start your maneuver.

In this case, the driver has admitted to “not seeing” either the bike or the following car, and so the bikes speed is irrelevant in terms of preventing the collision from occurring. We don’t know if they simply failed to look, or didn’t give themselves enough time to look properly.

IMO, it’s 75:25 to the car driver, something the courts seem to have agreed with.

(I’m not disputing the fact that the bikers speed was excessive and inappropriate in the moments before the collisions occurred, but that simply “going slower” would not guarantee the collision couldn’t have occurred.)

Nw

At what point does someone take responsibility for their own actions?

The car driver never meant to have an accident… but the biker did mean to be going that speed

You certainly aren’t applying the skills as it is about making progress when safe to do so. Not speeding for the sake of it because you are better than other drivers… in your head.

Some amount of willy waving on here, both from car drivers and motorbike riders. I wish speed awareness courses were compulsory for all road licence holders every 3 or 5 yrs. Most useful driver training I’ve seen in yrs and I’ve done quite a few varied courses over the 30 plus yrs of my own driving.

The video, tragic, for both families, biker and car driver.

The car driver never meant to have an accident… but the biker did mean to be going that speed

The car driver meant to turn across the road. He therefore had a responsibility to do it safely.

+1 for the last part of maxtorque’s post

The car driver never meant to have an accident… but the biker did mean to be going that speed

Indeed.

Just because you have a certificate doesn’t make it right that you can drive like a prick.
Treat other people with respect and slow the **** down. It ain’t rocket science.

You certainly aren’t applying the skills as it is about making progress when safe to do so. Not speeding for the sake of it because you are better than other drivers… in your head.

No I’d be exceeding posted speed limits anyway (like probably 99% of the other people who drive), it’s just that I’ve taken a decision to improve my skills so that when I do exceed the limit (sometimes because I enjoy it) I’ll be safer doing this. The IAM, whilst providing excellent training, does not condone breaking speed limits. I’ve not kept my membership up.

Well I’m signing out of this discussion. It’s going a little of topic, partly my fault, and I don’t see what further can be gained from discussing road safety issues with some people on here seemingly so concerned about road safety and the speed of others, yet who can’t themselves see the value in extra driver training and who haven’t even been bothered to further their own driving skills since passing their test. As they say, “you can’t educate pork”.

And if it all goes wrong someone still has to come and scoop you up and bag all the bits.

I think the costs should be passed on to those who are at fault, why should I have to pay for other people who choose to pay for their training, pay out for a performance vehicle and still drive like a ****.

Rebel, you are on a planet of your own. Shame that’s not true as our world would be a safer place without your driving skills.

Well whatever your views

Stay safe out there and remember what your mother said.

Don’t play in the road

Sad ending, no question.

However: the motorcyclist was riding too fast for the road, I think.

It happens – I was lucky enough to get away with some (seriously) crazy shit 30 years ago when I rode a motorbike, but I don’t think I’d get away with it now and I wouldn’t want even to try. And there are so many more people on the roads it’s not worth it.

Most of us on here know what Drac does for a living (hopefully) and I for one respect his point of view (thanks to one of his colleagues my wife is still alive – I don’t know which one, but thanks very much anyway).

I think the point is that speed is something that we should all think about when we are on the road. It’s made me think, anyway, I hope.

100 mph on an empty motorway is very different to the same speed on a crowded A road.

I hope that all of us on this thread, and anyone watching that video takes the time to think a little more about how we/they drive/ride next time they go out…

The car driver never meant to have an accident… but the biker did mean to be going that speed

The biker never meant to have an accident… but the driver did mean to turn across a road which he hadn’t checked properly to be clear.

I’m really not sure why deliberately driving fast is worse than deliberately driving into a space with traffic coming which you haven’t spotted.

As I wrote above, the biker was riding way too fast, but it was the driver who most directly caused the collision – for those who’ve missed the point, this video points out that both parties did something wrong.

I’m not surprised he didnt see the the car either… it was probably 1/2 a mile away !!

Rubbish. From when he passed the car to the collision is 4s. Less than 200m at 97mph. I think it’s already been pointed out, but if the car is doing 60mph then the turn is far too tight in front of that even if the bike hadn’t been there – at the point he started the turn it would have been only about 60 or 70m away.

I don’t see what further can be gained from discussing road safety issues with some people on here seemingly so concerned about road safety and the speed of others, yet who can’t themselves see the value in extra driver training and who haven’t even been bothered to further their own driving skills since passing their test.

What about those of us that have, and still think you’re talking a load of twaddle?

You seem to have amazing awareness of everything except your own fallibility, one day it may be your undoing, I just hope that you don’t have the misfortune to harm someone else if it does come to that.

Since I still wouldn’t wish any harm upon you, and you don’t seem likely to have an epiphany any time soon then I will at least hope you stay lucky.

Tough viewing, speaking having recently passed DAS but having been riding for some years. 100% the drivers fault, they will – quite rightly – live with that til they die. However the rider gave himself 0% chance, overtaking in that way into a junction like that at such a speed was complacent and reckless. Where was the margin for error? Maybe it as the only time he’d done it, but I doubt that.

Similar thing has happened to me without the overtake and at 30mph instead of almost 100. As a consequence I walked away, and the driver got a mild beating before we exchanged insurance details. As it should be.

Mike P is spot on, the rider took away his own options by going so fast at that point. The accident is 100% down to the car driver’s inattention, but the outcome may have been less severe had the rider been doing 60 or less mph.
The fact that the Police successfully prosecuted the driver, despite the evidence of the video, which they had in full and would have looked at extremely carefully is proof enough of that.

Jen.

Credit to the driver for admitting his deadly mistake.If he’d pleaded not guilty and gone to trial then he more than likely would have got off if this other story and associated thread is anything to go by,oh and the numerous other such tragic events which crop up with alarming irregularity.
http://road.cc/content/news/95681-pharmaceutical-consultant-who-killed-cyclist-while-driving-wrong-side-road

Where was the margin for error?

That disappeared the moment someone pulled across in front of him. You ever heard of that happening to cyclists? I have – to look at that and say it’s purely down to the motorcyclist’s speed is innaccurate. For what it’s worth he had 22 years more experience than you have, and it was someone else’s mistake that did for him.

I think some people are missing the point of the video. It’s telling you that this can happen and somebody is dead. It’s something the driving gods and the rest need to think about. Both people involved could and would have done something different given the chance. If the driver had looked properly or the bike was travelling at a sensible speed for the road it could have had a very different outcome. Partly forget blame and look at what makes sure you get home rather than being put in a body bag. No matter how good you are you are just 1 in a million others out there on the road.

Having read the first few and last pages this best sums up my feelings:

amedias – Member

^ you paying more attention with your heightened awareness and such is all very well and good, but that wont stop someone else doing something stupid, and if you happen to hit them because of their mistake the outcome for both of you will be a lot worse due to you ‘pressing on’.

In my experience people who think they have superior skills are either deluding themselves, or in the rare cases when they do have the skills, forget that those around them do not.

Throw in a bit of your version of appropriate (because you have superior skills of course ;-)) being different to someone elses and it’s a recipe for trouble.

I’m all for appropriate speed for conditions and not just blindly following limits, but you need to remember that the ‘appropriate’ bit isn’t just about your skills, your vehicle, and the road/weather/visibility, it’s about the other people you are sharing that road with, the least predictable and most variable element of the whole thing.

The biker should not have been speeding (especially at a junction like that) and the car driver should have seen him. In 30yrs+ of accident free driving I’ve never exceeded the speed limit by 35+mph but I have misjudged the time I have to complete a manoeuvre; in such cases I’ve no doubt things might have been much worse had the other driver been doing 97mph. I make judgements based on the initial assumption other road users are within the reasonable bounds of legal speed, if they’re doing very high speeds then I’m more likely to misjudge a situation. The more excessive the speed, the more likely a misjudgement by other road users. Tragedy for everyone involved.

Agree with that pretty much word for word.

97mph, especially approaching a junction is a massive assumption that no one makes a bad decision.

It was SMIDSY, not a misjudgment.

Deepreddave is spot on there..

My little bro only ever had a motorcycle license (and a succession of awesome bikes) but he took his car test and sold his bikes in his early 30s as he considered that biking wasn’t safe or enjoyable at any speed any more due to ever increasing volumes of traffic, which in turn means ever more chance of encountering bad drivers