Well it went a bit quiet in here when I watched this…

97 through traffic on a busy A road! Trying to see or judge the speed of a narrow object moving towards you at more than 150% of the speed limit and probably 200% of the safe limit for the conditions and volume of traffic is going to be a challenge.

I feel sorry for the car driver.

Since he was a kid his Mum says.

Ah, right. I didn’t listen to the preamble, watched it without sound.

If you read the thread: The car driver didn’t fail to judge: He didn’t ‘see’. How big do things have to be for you not to ‘see’ them? How long before you initiate a turn across the road do you check to see if it is clear to turn? An awful lot of people seem to be quoting the speed without actually asking themselves how that relates to the real world and what that implies about what you expect is reasonable for a driver to do.

As a an ex biker, i would say if he hadn’t been killed that day, it was on the cards at some point. I would describe his riding as reckless.

I feel sorry for the car driver.

My initial gut reaction was “I bloody don’t, they should’ve looked.” But you know what, you’re right; simply because, people make mistakes. Blame aside, a momentary lapse of concentration (or two) and someone’s dead. I wouldn’t wish that on anyone.

twinw4ll +1

First thing my instructor told me before I got on my bike was “All those bastards out there are out to kill you, remember that and ride accordingly.”

Tragic for someone so young to die in such a pointless manner, but I would say he was riding recklessly by not reading the road, adjusting his speed accordingly and observing the hazards. V sad.

I ride motorbikes a lot and that was very painful to watch

I’ve been involved in a similar accident some years ago where a car turned across me and hit me hard. 30mph limit, don’t recall my speed but I don’t think it was too far off 30.

With that type of accident, once the car starts to go, the collision is almost inevitable. Both vehicles are heading to the point of a wedge.
Unless there’s run off to the right, it’s almost impossible to avoid if it’s out of your braking zone, as said, your won’t turn a bike much at that speed.

I would hope that I wouldn’t put myself in that situation at that speed but that vid has certainly made me even more aware of that type of potential danger.

Dark bike (maybe without lights)

Bikes have had their lights hard wired on for many years now. That one was new enough to be included

See, that’s your mistake. The capability of the bike has NOTHING to do with it in this case. It’s do to with the interaction between other motorists.

100mph might be within the cruising speed of the bike, but what about when there are cars all over the place not looking very carefully at junctions? What difference does the bike make then? None, as this guy found out.

My point is, to be clear: it’s not about who’s right, it’s about who stays alive.

Mol, I agree 100%

For the driver surely it would be pretty hard to see a bike 200m away ?

Not at all. You should bee looking as far as you can possibly see. 200m is bugger all. If i can see it I’ll plan ahead a mile or more. Like on a motorway when there’s a big valley and you can see the traffic going up the other side.

I do ride a motorbike over that though. Like I said, for the road, the conditions, the traffic, I thought his speed was reasonable.

As a motorcyclist you ,sir, are talking bollocks. It was reasonable if there was no traffic and no junctions, yes, maybe, but then and there? Are you insane?

How big do things have to be for you not to ‘see’ them?

” But you know what, you’re right; simply because, people make mistakes

but as that RAF blokes article points out – something not being seen because it is in a saccade is a common occurrence, it is not a mistake.

Not as insane as I used to be. I do 90% of my riding on track now. I am far slower than I used to be. That said, I still do t believe his speed was inappropriate. Results of course argue against me.

Fwiw I think the video is pointless.most drivers are rubbish, this won’t improve them. Many bikers ride quickly, this won’t change them either.

Although, this being stw and full of martyrs and sanctimonious people, I doubt many will agree.

A mate of mine pulled out into the path of an oncoming van a couple of years ago which got him side on. He just can’t understand how he never saw it coming

A mate of mine turned right across an oncoming car and they hit. He has no idea how it happened either. It happens.

Not as insane as I used to be

Thank god………

Fwiw I think the video is pointless.most drivers are rubbish, this won’t improve them

but I don’t think that you have said that this rider was rubbish either, only that the driver was at fault?

As pointed out you can clearly see that car in the centre of the road for quite a time, so it is pretty obvious what he is going to do, and he might have had time to do it if the rider hadn’t been riding so fast.

I never once said the driver was at fault fella. IMO I don’t think either person was at fault, it was, just one of them things.

Both people would have learned something from the incident had they both survived, but how much is open to debate.

I’ve been involved in worse incidents, but was very very lucky. Coming over a crest at 150mph being faced with a car turning, 99 times out of 100 he’d have killed me, but for whatever reason he saw me, I went past him on the wrong side of the road almost in the gutter.
That never slowed me down, none of the near misses or accidents ever did. I just grew up a bit.

That never slowed me down, none of the near misses or accidents ever did

Self centered much?

Watched this earlier and it shook me up a bit. 100% the driver’s fault IMO.

However – on my road bike, approaching a junction like that, I’ll be slowing down until I can be 100% sure that the car waiting to turn has seen me – with eye contact if possible. I know a motorbike is faster, but the same principal applies – if you’re going to boot it at near on 100mph, you need to be cautious at junctions like that – he was not cautious.

The mother is right – motorcyclists need to be aware, and car drivers do as well (the fact that the driver said they hadn’t seen the car behind him either is also concerning).

For those that can’t understand how you miss seeing a bike coming straight at you.

I’ve done similar and saw the bike at the last moment. You’re sat in a queue of traffic in the filter lane waiting for your turn to cross the oncoming traffic. You get to the front, it’s your turn. You’re looking far down the road at oncoming traffic, waiting for a gap. You see one, and you think ‘after that next car, I can go’. And after the next car, you go. Because the ‘last’ thing you expect is for someone to be overtaking into that gap and into a junction, let alone at close on 100mph.

Like I say, I caught the bike coming towards me at a reduced speed (but still overtaking in a stupid place). And because I stopped, and because he was going at a speed that enabled him to manoeuvre – in real terms it wasn’t even close. But change one or two aspects and that would have been me. Aspects that were in the motorbiker’s control, ie. not overtaking into a dangerous area, and not doing it at that speed.

We had a similar discussion a couple of weeks ago where someone’s wife had been knocked off her bike in a similar situation. A few people were shouted down for suggesting that she needs to assess her riding to see what she could have done differently. Now, different to this case was that she was within speed limits and riding along a road not doing anything wrong. But the message is the same, we’re very vulnerable whether we’re in the right or not, and we have to ride in a way that manages that vulnerability as best we can.

PeterPoddy – Member
I wish I hadn’t watched that vid. It’s quite upsetting because, to me, it’s very very real. Very very familiar, even though that’s never happened to me.

^^ Took the words out of my mouth. I’ve seen a few vids like this but this one has got to me; strangely familiar in an odd / weird way and I can almost ‘feel’ what he went through. Fair play to the mum, and RIP David

Self centred,hmmmmm

Sanctimonious much?

I wonder why I bother being open and honest here sometimes, next time I’ll just write

‘Oh yeah, that was terrible’

Far easier that way.

Weeksy, you’re saying that car drivers are rubbish, but then freely admitting to making appalling choices yourself?

Surely there is more to being a good rider than simply making it home alive at speeds which are inappropriate for a public road?

I’m genuinely curious btw, not trying to be sanctimonious, the fast rider mindset intrigues me

Sanctimonious much?

Nah, just seeing right through someone trying to justify riding like a **** as anything other than a purely selfish act.

Children, let’s not be snippy.

Children, let’s not be snippy.

…and patronising. Let us also not be patronising 8)

Driver at fault, no doubt, but rider riding in a stupid and reckless way.

End of the day roads are dangerous, and he was going too fast to be able manoeuvre. Speed isn’t just a cause or reason for blame, it’s also time in instances like this, to react.

Peter,
As stated,I’m not the rider I once was in that context. I still ride was many on here would call insane speeds and inappropriately but in my perception they’re completely safe and within my comfort zone. I doubt many would think my riding is good, I think its safe though (mostly)

My comments of drivers being rubbish is a generalisation based upon the driving I see every day out there.

…and patronising. Let us also not be patronising

Well, I was trying to be gentle and irreverent. I can get the hammer if you’d prefer?

(-:

A quote from someone on pistonheads:

Driving/riding too fast is like masturbation; great fun for yourself but no-one else needs to see it.

Well, I was trying to be gentle and irreverent. I can get the hammer if you’d prefer?

You know I will always vote for the hammer…

Very distressing and horrible for everyone involved . A great deal of respect to the parents for trying to to do whatever they so that it doesn’t happen to someone else.

+1.

I think its safe though

Don’t we all?

I wonder if the guy in the vid thought he was safe?

I don’t drive over 75mph generally…

I do ride a motorbike over that though. Like I said, for the road, the conditions, the traffic, I thought his speed was reasonable.

Ask yourself this, if the bike is a 1300cc Japanese bike with 150+BHP and a top speed of close to 180mph, do you think the rider really bought it to do 70mph everywhere ? Simple answer, bikers buy big fast bikes to do big fast speeds. That speed was IMO well within ‘cruising’ speed for an experienced biker on a big Japanese sports tourer.

weeksy… uuuhm so? My car says it does 160mph.. Did i buy it to do 70mph everywhere? Well the law states various speeds on the roads for a reason..

this video shows a fair hint as to why excessive speed is dangerous..

I do ride a motorbike over that though. Like I said, for the road, the conditions, the traffic, I thought his speed was reasonable.

Personally, I slow down in the car when passing junctions, having had people pull right out in front of me before. On a bike I think that was well excessive in that traffic. Definitely two sides to this one.

Sobering film though.

I didn’t watch the video, and I’m not going to get into an argument about the rights and wrongs. As far as drivers not seeing, I’ve approached a side turning at the bottom of my road, which is slightly downhill, at a reasonable speed on my mountain bike, with a car sitting waiting to pull out from my right to go in the same direction. The driver has looked me straight in the eye, waited until I was practically level with him, then pulled out alongside me, so close I slammed my hand on his roof! I was barely a metre out from the kerb, and my bars were almost touching the car. Now, was that due to the driver looking, but actually not really ‘seeing’ the approaching bike? I would have been doing perhaps 12-15mph at that point, but I have actually overtaken a car at that exact point at 32mph, if that driver had pulled out then I’d have stood no chance, and neither would someone on a motorbike doing 30mph.

It’s his cry before impact, knowing there is nothing he can do about it, that has got me.

That video is the reason I no longer ride a motorbike. Absolutely haunting.

Now, was that due to the driver looking, but actually not really ‘seeing’ the approaching bike?

Probably – it happens.

Bullheart plus 1.

Not ashamed to say I am crying after watching that. The quiet dignity of his mum, her lack of willingness to point the finger and his shout…

I’m not interested in the rights or wrongs of the situation or debating them. I’m just so sorry for the people involved in that and other similar accidents.

Please let’s all be more careful…

Jay

Edit: not against people debating it – just don’t have the heart for it today. Hope I’ve not offended.

I read this whole thread before watching the Video, I live not far from where this happened….
It is a horrendous junction and there is probably an accident there of some description once a month.

Up to the point I watched the video (and in some respects it still stands) I was in the same camp as Weeksy.
I`m a biker (Though currently bikeless) and 100mph on that road on a modern bike is normally fine

Ok its not a very PC view, but I kind of know where Weeksy is coming from and I`d be doing the same.

Having watched the video, the rider never gave himself a chance…..

Its a shame as Norfolk police run a very good (And realistic for the kind of riding that they see up here) safe rider course, which is all about Hazard perception, anticipation etc.

It was clear that he had never taken it.

he was a local, the road is well known, there was just too much going on at that junction for him not to roll off (I`d have slowed) change position etc.

It looked to me like he was still back in the overtake mentally and hadn’t caught up, If (and I`m not sure)he saw the car waiting, he did nothing to react to it until it moved, and by then it was too late.

Basically he had no capacity to process all of the information at the speed he was travelling.
(I`d be very surprised if he had been able to give a running commentary on that road at that speed on that day – and that’s always a marker for me of appropriate speed, if your commentary cant keep up, your brain is not processing the information as fast as its appearing – therefore slow down)

Very sad, very avoidable, 2 families lives changed forever.
Rest in Peace and godspeed David 😥

I work in Road Safety. We work with a number of victims who have lost limbs, lost sons daughters, husbands etc.

Brave people who we take around the county talking to groups of new drivers, the military, companies with lots of drivers etc.

One of things I always try to emphasis is that we all make mistakes in life and one of the biggest issues is that we are only human.

Why didn’t the driver see the bike, this may be the reason
http://www.londoncyclist.co.uk/raf-pilot-teach-cyclists/

Was it the drivers fault? was the biker going too fast? was it a combination of things?

1) The car driver was travelling in a line of traffic and very probably did not see the biker until he pulled into the centre of the road to turn right.

2) It’s pretty difficult to judge the speed of something heading straight for you when it’s going that fast and in light of this the driver could reasonably have expected the bikes speed to be about 60.

3) IF the bike had been going 60 it would have been about 120′ further back than it actually was after those 4 seconds – in which case the bike would have passed behind the turning car. But he wasn’t doing 60 he was doing well over 90 [around other vehicles] which in this scenario is completely irresponsible.

4) If in doubt [drivers] – wait.

5) If a dog/fox/badger/deer had run out in front the the bike the result would have been the same – who would Weeksy be blaming then?