Wear your helmet kids!

TJ, I curently work in the design, development and testing of Fast-Jet and Helicopter Helmets.

Not read all of this thread and i like most here would choose to wear a helmet and have thanked my lucky stars on a few occasions that i had one on,,,,however i read in a mag or on tinternet a couple of years back a debate about the merrits of a helmet in certain crashes, the incident in question was where a guy crashed and did a forward roll, and subsiquently brock his neck and was paralized as a result. the theory was it was the shape and size of the helmet that put extra force on his neck causing the damage!! Like I say I always wear one if only for the extra mental confidence it gives me but these stories of helmets causing injury also exist.

I don't know about anyone else, but my own lid has bashed, clonked and scraped and been generally abused by countless overhanging branches and twigs and such like, especially in the summer months, to know without a doubt I'd have grooves in my scalp that would not look at all pleasant.

Plus I've thrown my head down several XC trails and a bit of Watford High Street over these past 4 yrs in order to test my own feelings that I would not leave home without it. Nor can you compete in any XC or downhill race that I know of without one.

I've also raced m'bikes at club level and have slung it down the tarmac four times = 4 new helmets = £!

Unfortunately donks you don't know what kind of crash you are going to have before you have it.

I do wonder though about the bit that sticks out of the back of many bike helmets. Could this be causing problems? It's notably absent from a Xen.

I do wonder though

Yeah, me too…I wonder how one can accuse a person of "guessing" and then get it so completely wrong.
😉

S

molgrips – it could be – we really don't know. Certainly the added leverage of sticky out bits theoretically could increase rotational forces and injuries – which may be a particular type of injury known as a diffuse axon injury. It also is increases the size of your head thus making it easier to hit. It could also catch on obstructions thus giving rotational accelerations.

NO real good data on it that I know of – rotational accelerations being made worse by helmets is proven experimentally but what part shell shape has to play in this is not known as far as I know

Like I say I always wear one if only for the extra mental confidence it

One of the dangers with helmets – risk compensation. Feel more confident and take more risks

Solo – your last on my comment confused me – I've got no idea what you're on about. LHS knows his onions and understands compromises and user requirements and performance balanced against the art of the possible – be that human or financial limitations.
If people want the levels of protection linked to motorized sports, they are free to purchase and wear. If they want something that passes an international standard and gives a reasonable level of protection, they wear a bike helmet. Don't blame the manufacturers and don't blame the magazines for not testing to destruction. Don't pontificate that it could be better then offer no alternative – thats where people find you have no substance. Do your own risk assessment for your own life and take responsibility for your own purchases, actions and headwear.

Feel more confident and take more risks

And have more fun

Safety Tips

1) Do not Crash
2) If you must crash do not bounce on your head
3) If you must bounce on your head avoid hard and pointy objects
4) If you can't avoid hard and pointy objects protect your head
5) If you protect head avoid accidents where rotation might be a feature.
6) If you can't avoid accidents where rotation is a feature you're fecked.

Besdies that there are two major flaws in TJ's argument.

a) The implication that it is possible to choose how and when you crash.
b) That we, the great unwashed, presume that helmet will save our sad lives in every circumstance rather than just mitigate some of them.

The research that is so frequently quoted is fundamentally flawed, in that all of those occasions when a helmet had been worn and there has been no bad outcome are ignored. It follows for example that there will be little or no investigation of the incident with the OP because the outcome is not severe enough to warrant it. Whereas a serious injury or death will. Therefore it is relatively easy to arrive at the conclusion that having a fall when wearing a helmet often results in death or serious injury. Whereas the fact is that all of the incidents where that has not been the case and in fact the helmet has prevented that outcome by that very token go unreported and uninvestigated.

At first glance it thought this was titled "weigh your helmet kids"

"Helicopter Helmets."

They sound ace, whats their range like and how much weight can they carry? 😉

As solo says – its rather hard to see why differing sports with similar requirements end up with such different designs of helmets – unfortunately fashion and consumer acceptance plays a large part.

No, I don't think so. Nothing stop you to wear a motorcycle crash helmet TJ. It will offer you much more protection. So why don't you wear one?

Cycling is a very specific sport. Different from running, skiing, Mxing, ****-horse riding and so and so. Therefore helmets have a different design to all the other sport. Where I don't agree with TJ is when he says that there is some data about rotational injuries. You have fail to provide with a peer review study of clinical cases about rotational injuries resulting of the presence of an helmet. Another point is that most of the studies are fairly old and still crash test some even older (cheaper) helmet design. The fact that we even have different helmet for on road and off road means at least one thing. Helmet manufacturers start to see that both sport are different and therefore the conundrum is that helmet design should be different.

Motor sport generally doesn't require pedaling, so the heat generated is much less. Even on a cool day a cycling helmet can get very hot, so it seems impracticable to me that 'piss-pot' or ice hockey style helmets could be used on a bike without compromising the experience from a comfort and safety perspective. Cooking your head in an enclosed design is going to be dangerously distracting. It's similarly clear to me that many road helmets successfully take this compromise into consideration.

One of the dangers with helmets – risk compensation. Feel more confident and take more risks

The accidents I've had with my helmet on happened in a blink of an eye with zero warning.

your last on my comment confused me – I've got no idea what you're on about

You are, of course, at liberty to go read the thread, but that is perhaps more difficult than trying to flame someone…Ok.

I've voiced a belief that cycle helmet design could be better from a primary performance perspective.
I have worked on passenger restraint and protection systems.

You and LHS have reacted as if I know nothing about Engineering and crash testing, etc. A poor assumption.

I have not blamed anyone for anything, merely pointed out how I see where we are right now with current helmet design, etc, etc, for reasons of cost, comfort, manuf, blah, blah.

You seem to have consistently missed this, in order to just try to have a go.

LHS knows his onions and understands compromises and user requirements and performance balanced against the art of the possible – be that human or financial limitations
And the rest of us know nothing ?…

Don't pontificate that it could be better then offer no alternative
I laugh at your trying to get me to design a helmet here, on a thread.
TJ has offered up some good suggestions for starting points.
If anyone is pontificating, its you.
Are you really saying that current cycle helmet design can't be improved upon ?. REALLY ????
🙂

Do your own risk assessment for your own life and take responsibility for your own purchases, actions and headwear.

Errr…Yeah, thanks for that, but I think most of us already do 😆

S

The fact that we even have different helmet for on road and off road means at least one thing. Helmet manufacturers start to see that both sport are different and therefore the conundrum is that helmet design should be different.

And its nothing to do with selling me a helmet for the road, and another one for off-road…

Just what are the real, effective differences between MTB and Road helmets, in relation to them performing their ultimate function, in their current form ?.

a) The implication that it is possible to choose how and when you crash.

I crash a hell of a lot and it usually is possible to choose how and when I crash, it's the few times it's impossible to choose or I make a bad decision in the split second before/during the crash that I've actually been hurt worst. Knowing how/when to crash/bail is often more important than wearing a helmet IMO.

The rotational forces seem to have caused this thread to go round in circles!

Just what are the real, effective differences between MTB and Road helmets, in relation to them performing their ultimate function, in their current form ?.

Would you wear a full face helmet when out on a road ride?

Everyone, TJ always backs down when you offer him a calibrated whack on the head with or without a helmet. Keep the odds on your side if you want to stay safER, wear a helmet. TJ is right, there are no guarantees of absolute safety.

Would you wear a full face helmet when out on a road ride?

Should have gone to spec-savers

Just what are the real, effective differences between MTB and Road helmets, in relation to them performing their ultimate function, in their current form ?.

🙄

S

Just what are the real, effective differences between MTB and Road helmets

Giro Xen

Giro Atmos

Atmos (the road one) has more vents, a sticky out bit at the back, it's smaller, thinner, doesn't go down the bac as far and has no peak.

You need to elaborate on what you are getting at. Its unclear.

here's an interesting paper – it says that a lot of the talk about "not making a difference" comes from poor statistical analysis – the conclusion is interesting.

Misconceptions regarding case-control studies of bicycle helmetsnext term and head injury
Accident Analysis & Prevention
Volume 38, Issue 4, July 2006, Pages 636-643

we should probably all be wearing a slightly more beefed up version of the met parachute (with the detachable chin guard…years ago I raced bmx – we all used to wear pretty much full on motorcycle lids then…

more literature…TJ – do you ahve access to science direct – i.e. can you search for these?

"Current previous termhelmetnext term designs provide adequate protection for typical oblique impacts onto a road surface, in terms of the peak linear and rotational head accelerations. Most criticisms of current previous termbicycle helmetnext term designs are not valid: although test headforms lack a deformable scalp, and so have a high contact stiffness, this does not lead to inappropriate designs; there is a linear increase in the peak impact force with impact velocity, not a just sub-lethal level for minor impacts."

International Journal of Impact Engineering
Volume 35, Issue 9, September 2008, Pages 1075-1086

What is the purpose of a peak on a MTB helmet?

I know it makes you look more RAD but it cant be that………….can it??

Ive been using a skateboard helmet due to lack of cash but I do suffer from boiled head syndrome. It got too much last week so there's a proper MTB helmet on its way in the post

Looks like this has just descended into the usual bitch-fest I've noticed is common on here.

FWIW; I had a crash last year, broke my helmet, would probably have ended up with quite serious injuries if I'd not been wearing it. Helmet absorbed the impact and did it's job. I'm not expecting it to perform miracles, but if it makes just a 10% difference between the chances of sustaining serious injuries or not, then it's worth wearing one, in my book. Tandem Jeremy has come out with some pretty weird stuff on this, I must say.

i'll just listen to the 'evidence' that my helmet probably saved my from serious injury. That's good enough for me.

Specialized replaced it (it was 5 years old) without me having ay receipt for it, with a heavily discounted one. didn't even ask for postage. All within a couple of days of me sending the old one to them, and they returned the broken one so that it could be used for a kid's cycling safety scheme to demonstrate the effectiveness of wearing helmets (they had fun bashing it with a hammer!).

Helmets FTW.

…years ago I raced bmx – we all used to wear pretty much full on motorcycle lids then…

That makes perfect sense.. hitting jumps flat out bangin bars with 7 other riders, in that situation wearing a neck brace makes a lot of sense too. neither make a lot of sense for pissing about round wooded singletrack though.

I can't be bothered to read all the posts on here, the first two pages were enough but i just can not believe that people are still debating that helmets are not a good idea. I totally agree that the fit and sizing of the helmet is criticle, and I get wound up by people cycling past with the helmet resting on the top of their neck but i know from personal experience that correctly fitted hemets SAVE LIVES. I have had two or three massive crashes (not bad in nearly 20 years mountain biking :wink:) that have smashed/cracked helmets that without would have killed me. Thats not me being melodramatic. I'm all for looking at the facts of things and reasoned debate but to say that wearing a helmet is not going to reduce your chance of serious injury from head trauma is bordering on the ridiclous 🙄

What is the purpose of a peak on a MTB helmet?

Keeps the sun and rain off your face. I wish my road helmet had one, sometimes I use the MTB lid in wet weather because the peak really helps.

Juan – there is specific good data on rotational forces – I have posted the references several times. Some of them are on this page – there is loads more evidence of this and some companies are now attempting to make helmets to mitigate this
http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1182.html

It does amuse me how what I say gets distorted.

All I have said here is :

A helmet that has split has failed and has not made significant difference to the severity of any injury.

Helmets provide little protection against major injuries even when they have worked properly

There are drawbacks to helmet design and they could be improved.

A helmet that has split has failed and has not made significant difference to the severity of any injury.

Disagree. It could have deformed (not visibly) taking up lots of energy, and flexed, THEN split. Lots of energy absorbed and not transferred to your bonce.

Helmets provide little protection against major injuries even when they have worked properly

Again disagree. If it absorbs 10% of the energy of a big smash, then that's 10% less for your brain to deal with.

There are drawbacks to helmet design and they could be improved.

Not disputing that.

Helmets provide little protection against major injuries even when they have worked properly

So let's say that Simwit landed on the stones without the helmet. The effect would have been similair to being struck with a ball pein hammer. That sort of impact would have certainly caused significant trauma to the tissue around the impact point. There would also be a chance of a fracture to the skull (no matter how small), or, in the worse case, an indentation in the bone.

What part of that isn't serious?

I don't care what anyone says, concrete is hard. If my helmet scrapes along it instead of my head, I will probably be OK. If my head scrapes along it instead of my helmet,I will probably not be OK. So, I wear a helmet. The same as I wear a seatbelt. It doesn't prevent an accident, but it does improve the chances of walking away from most types of one.

But there are types of accident where a helmet or seatbelt could make me worse off, but I believe them to be less frequent, so I will still wear a helmet.

I don't care if no one else wears one (apart from my kids), as long as they don't expect me to pick them up afterwards.

That cycle helmet site is wierd.
It seems to state that by forcing the use of helmets it increases the risk of serious disease due to obesity as a result of people not cycling.
So what about education? Go cycling and wear a helmet = Best of both worlds?

A helmet that has split has failed and has not made significant difference to the severity of any injury.

Could not be more wrong, the fracture process is a designed in feature of helmets to aid with the spread and dissipation of energy.

Helmets provide little protection against major injuries even when they have worked properly

That doesn't even warrant a reply, I have no idea why you think this but its mind boggling.

There are drawbacks to helmet design and they could be improved.

There is always room for improvement, and it will depend on what YOU would decide is the most important aspect. Don't be fooled into thinking it is as easy as just making a helmet which has double the thickness of EPS liner around the entire circumference of your head though.

LHS – 'cos that is the evidence states. Real peer reviewed studies. Cycle helemts are only designed for low speed low energy impacts – whith high energy impact they do very little.
I know a thicker eps is not the answer – its the behaviour in oblique impacts I am particularly concerned with and fit andf retention. Bigger increase the chance of hitting your head and increases leverage

Solo – I'm trying to extract more than a criticism or a question from you. Most all of your posts on this topic have questioned current design or thrown out questions to other posters. I have always been taught that criticism without a proposed alternative is nonconstructive and your posts have shown none of your suggested improvements over what we have. Nothing more.

LHS – some discussion of the failure of helmets to protect against serious injuries
http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1054.html

Anecdote not evidence