Water softeners .. worth it? Do they work?

Part way through getting a new kitchen installed …. HOW MUCH?! … I could buy a few bikes for that.

Anyway, she who must be obeyed announces “what about a water softener?” That might read like a question but I’ve been married long enough to recognise an order when I hear one.

Does anyone have experiences / recommendations / warnings I need to heed (other than don’t rip out your old kitchen before understanding how expensive a new one is, or don’t get married)?

Many thanks.

What’s the point of these? Surely this is full-blown snake oil stuff.

Whether they are worthwhile depends on where you live. Ask your water company for an analysis. A softener will increase the amount of sodium you drink, which isn’t supposed to be good for you. The harder the water you have now, the more sodium there will be

do you have hard water?

what problems is the hard water causing?

Some evidence that Hard water reduces risk of cardio vascular disease

If hard water/limescale is a problem for you they are good. If you do not have hard water they are pointless.

If you are worried about drinking softened water either plumb the kitchen tap to unsoftened water or add a drinking water tap.

I have one I bought from Wickes as it was a reasonable price and takes salt tablets that I can easily obtain from various sources. There are companies selling them who will grossly inflate the price, be wary of these

They’re a right old faff! There was one fitted when we moved in so we added salt to the hopper for a couple of months until it ran out. We didn’t bother getting any more.
Soft water makes it impossible to get rid of your soapy suds, on your body, in your clothes, washing up, etc etc, so probably won’t help with skin irritations.

Makes tea taste funny too.

They’re a right old faff! There was one fitted when we moved in so we added salt to the hopper for a couple of months until it ran out. We didn’t bother getting any more.
Soft water makes it impossible to get rid of your soapy suds, on your body, in your clothes, washing up, etc etc, so probably won’t help with skin irritations.

Makes tea taste funny too.

really? ok. Think of your heating system? Maybe research it a bit instead of just calling it a faff..? you might actually require it wrt to your current water state?

Actually you use less soap to compensate as soft water bubbles easier, hence less usage of soaps for shower, dishwasher and washing machine…

and tea & water dont taste any different to me..

I redid my bathroom recently and installed a softener at the same time. 18 months on and the bathroom is still sparkling with no scale or scum deposits at all. I bought a new kettle at the same time and it is still shiny inside with no scale. Shower water feels really silky. The water tastes the same although there is a hard water tap next to the sink(which has scale on it). Remember the salt is only used to regenerate the resin in the softener and is flushed out during regeneration. I think you have to be a bit careful about heating systems so worth checking your boiler type.Cheap to run, using around £30 of salt tablets a year. I live in Cambridge which has pretty hard water.

The amount of limescale in a heating system is negligible. Hot water cylinders and combi boilers that see water through put will be affected. Hot drinks with soft water taste horrid.

And, on a point of pedantry, bubbles have no cleaning action in shampoos etc, in fact, they add bubbling agents because people think cleaning products should bubble. Marketing innit.

Micro caviation via ultrasound etc is the only cleaning action I can think of where bubbles are actually instrumental in the actual cleaning process.

The amount of limescale in a heating system is negligible. Hot water cylinders and combi boilers that see water through put will be affected.

If my understanding is correct then ideally you wouldn’t put softened water in the heating system but since you should be putting a corrosion inhibitor in I doubt it will make much difference. By heating system I mean the portion that circulates the same fluid all the time with occasional top ups

I’ve had a water softener since 1999, replacing it with a newer model in 2006. I’ve also got a friend who runs a Water Softener business.

Basically if you live in a hard water area (like we do)they are very popular. Apart from not having limescale issues, I know straight away when the salt has run out as the water in the shower feels so different. I wouldn’t do without one now, but I imagine if I never had one, I would wonder what the fuss was about.

I’ve lived in 2 houses in the same water area (Reading / Wokingham) with water so hard it comes out the tap and accuses you of spilling it’s pint.

The house with a softener, we got through I think a sack (20kg?) of salt every 8 weeks or so, 3 blokes + girlfriends at the weekends.

The house without, we probably spent an equal value in new kettles, shower heater tanks and still had to deal with the cosmetic scale. Ok that’s exaggerating, but it was a ball ache. With the softener you also get nicer showers/baths etc as you use less soap (or can actually use soap rather than shower gel) because it will lather properly.

Whether they are worthwhile depends on where you live. Ask your water company for an analysis. A softener will increase the amount of sodium you drink, which isn’t supposed to be good for you. The harder the water you have now, the more sodium there will be

IIRC it does replace the calcium ions with the more soluble sodium ones. But you don’t hear people saying “drink tap water as a source of calcium” and the body’s pretty good at regulating sodium so it’s not a problem unless you really do eat too much of it.

If I were re-fitting a kitchen and lived in that area, I’d probably fit one. Just down the road (we’re still in Wokingham Borough Council, but now in Thames Water) there’s nowhere near the same hardness. So it’s worth reading up on how hard your water actually is, because it won’t necessarily be the same as the next village, even from the same supplier it might be a different source.

Water companies publish reports on their websites which give some info, otherwise places like Murphys labs will do a test for about £15 (useful if you’re into your homebrew too).

And, on a point of pedantry, bubbles have no cleaning action in shampoos etc, in fact, they add bubbling agents because people think cleaning products should bubble. Marketing innit.

Micro caviation via ultrasound etc is the only cleaning action I can think of where bubbles are actually instrumental in the actual cleaning process.

Bubbles are the obvious sign that the critical micell concentration has been reached in the solution, the less of the surfactant is dealing with the hard water the more there is to clean. Aside from that bubbles (in the form of foam rather than bubbles) are obviously very high concentrations of surfactant, thus bubbles clean better, they also hang around longer than the water, so you get clean rather than just rinsing soap solution down the plughole.

What RockApe said. Where I live in Reading, it’s almost essential.
You don’t drink softened water, the cold water tap in the kitchen is straight from the mains.
The rest of the house has softened water and it makes such an enormous difference to the way soap works and limescale builds up.
I’ve got a Kinetico 2020c, expensive as a one off cost but lasts for years, so not so bad.
You can use block or pellet salt.
It uses water pressure to work, so no electricity required. Stay away from East Midlands Water ones, they screwed me over royally.

The amount of limescale in a heating system is negligible. Hot water cylinders and combi boilers that see water through put will [did you mean NOT?] be affected. Hot drinks with soft water taste horrid.

Really? Always hard to find independent stuff – this US Gov report http://www.pnnl.gov/main/publications/external/technical_reports/PNNL-22921.pdf seems to show a c10% reduction in efficiency within a couple of years.

We fitted one in our newbuild. 6 months in so a little early to say whether I really think it’s worth it. I reckon 2 bags of salt/£30 should more than do us for 12 months use.
No longer need to add salt to the dishwasher (saving a couple of £)
Can use less soap in washing machine (and it should get less gunked up/work better)
Shower screens and taps etc stay a lot cleaner and don’t need harsh scale removers. Cleaning is quicker and easier.
Possibly made a mistake but our cold water from the kitchen tap isn’t softened so the kitchen sink still gets a bit scaled. We a double sink in our en suite with one softened and one not – I don’t taste a big difference.

It’s not a problem showering or bathing (strange – I wonder if your skin adapts – when an aunt had softened water i remember it being difficult to get rid of soap but it isn’t with ours).

I reckon it’s a luxury thing. It’s probably not far off cost neutral annually (if you do actually *do* buy fewer cleaning products and soap) . Certainly not a lot of hassle to top up the salt a couple of times a year.

Sale of the machines does seem to be a bit of a ‘double glazing’ type approach. You don’t need a twin tank machine (very expensive) but get one that regenrates when it needs to (on a meter) rather than on a timer.

stay away from East Midlands Water ones,

What happened? We bought one of theirs at a self build show. pretty sure it was one of these http://www.eastmidlandswater.com/Details.asp?ProductID=424 but I’m sure we paid around £400 or so. Seems to be fine.

The amount of limescale in a heating system is negligible.

My heat exchanger was 40% full of solid limescale. Took a bottle of DS-40 to clean it out and stop the boiler kettling. That was a few years back and it’s now kettling again and needs another purge….

It shouldn’t on the CH side though, there’s nowhere for the limescale to get in so once the initial fill of hard water has precipitated out is shouldn’t be getting worse.

Hot water side yup, but not the CH side.

We have one in this house, and old system that was installed many years before we moved in (2 years ago). The difference from our old house in the same area with no softener is considerable. I wouldn’t want to be without one now in this area (North Somerset). What has been said above about showers/lime scale/cleaning/etc. We do have a separate filtered water tap for our drinking water.

I was also advised against filling the CH side of the heating system with the softened water. I believe it is the aluminium heat exchangers in modern boilers that are most affected (they corrode?). There are 3 ball valves in our water system that allow the softener to be bypassed. I just do this and run the softened water through before filling the CH system.

Remember that if you live in a very hard water area then you don’t want to give the softened water to babies as it has too much sodium. If you get too many bubbles then just adjust it so the water is a little harder again – simples

Got one, like it. Just add salt and disinfect a couple of times a year if in remember

Yes. We had one and it was brilliant. We lived in a hard water area so the improvement was massive, much more pleasant to shower / wash in, no limestone marks on sinks etc and washing machine, kettle etc stay like new. We had a separate tap installed for water direct from mains (avoid the “too much sodium” concerns)

Not sure what they cost now, we had one under the sink (double chamber and automatic) cost about £750 although that was 15 years ago

We had one fitted 18 months ago and think its worth it. The water is very hard here so all taps were crusted in limescale, now we just get a few water marks of the shiny stuff which is easy to clean

and tea & water dont taste any different to me..

Quite. Large swathes of the UK population live in soft water areas: it seems unlikely that they’re all drinking minging brews.

Thanks all. Water is hard according to the Yorkshire Water site.

More research needed … the few websites I’ve looked at smack of double glazing selling and general spivery.

Forget water softener companies, they will charge twice what you need to pay, just go to your local plumbing supplier and see what they have. Ours is a Monarch, around £400/500 plus fitting parts. Most are automatic and have smart regeneration to save salt usage depending on how much water you use. I think due to EU regs they have to regen. At least every 6 days irrespective of usage to keep everything fresh. If you can do basic plumbing then you can fit one. You have to check water pressure & fit a regulator if necessary and obviously appropriate check valves. You usually need an electric socket for a wall wart but some are electric free but horrendously expensive. Most will regen overnight in a couple of hours so a dual tank one isn’t really necessary unless you use an inordinate amount of water constantly.

For drinking and pouring into a kettle or pan without the things furring up, just get a water filter jug. Tastes better and sorts the hardness out.

Everything else in my house I don’t bother with softners. Just need to descale the shower head occasionally. Boiler always seems fine and been going 20 or so years. Combi so it’s direct HW from the mains and the CH system gets an occasional top up from the mains. The HW from the taps never seems to have scale problems around the taps, unlike the CW taps.

Washing machines… live just as long without Calgon 😛 The detergent is itself a softener. Just add a bit more in hard water areas. Again, WM going for 15 years and no HW issues with it whatsoever.

Taste, well I grew up in a soft water area in Devon so on moving to the South East I find hard water a horrible taste and makes tea awful. Hence the water filter.

Used a brita water filter jug at old house without water softener, had to descale the kettle monthly. Been using the water softener in the new house for 2 years and not had to descale the kettle at all. Same water hardness, only moved a mile down the road.

Curious about these having seen them at shows and they are just up the road from uni in bristol: http://halcyanwater.com/trade/contact_us/

Curious about these having seen them at shows and they are just up the road from uni in bristol: http://halcyanwater.com/trade/contact_us/

“Naturally Halcyans’s are fully certified and carry the WRAS assurance. All our products are rigorously tested, both in the laboratory, and in the field,”

Pure snake oil – talk of rigourous testing but not backed up with any reports or publications on their website. No clear description of how it’s actually meant to work. WRAS approval simply means it’s not actively harmful – not that it’s in any way effective to do anything.

At least every 6 days irrespective of usage to keep everything fresh. If you can do basic plumbing then you can fit one

That’s interesting. Got a link or anything? This was configurable on mine and i set it to something much longer than the default as there didn’t seem to be any reason given for why you’d want it going automatically. Mine’s set to 20 days now.

TBH I’m only going on what the manufacturer told me, mine regens automatically and is not configurable. It will however only regen as much as is necessary to bring the resin back up to full efficiency to minimise salt usage, it must have some internal meter to check how much is necessary. There are only 2 in our household so we probably don’t use the full volume of water available between regens

My dad has a water softener, and my brother describes the water there as “the wettest water I know.” Apparently it makes far more of a mess when his kids splash it round the bathroom.
If I’m staying there for a week or so, I start getting skin problems, and a local friend says her skin clears up when she goes on holiday…

Fit one if you have scale problems or want one. Just make sure that your drinking water isn’t softened. As already stated the calcium ions are replaced with sodium, and drinking salty water isnt nice or healthy.

They do work, but if its worth it is down to how much the hard water bothers you.

Ensure you keep it properly maintained too, they can fill up with all manner of gunk when left unloved.

mark90 – Member
Used a brita water filter jug at old house without water softener, had to descale the kettle monthly.

To be honest, yes using a filter jug the kettle scales a little bit over time, but only enough that I need to descale it every 5 years maybe if at all. If I have family around who go fill the kettle from the tap, bang, furred up massively in one boil. Likewise with pans which get a nasty scale and a scum on the water if boiling water. Filter, no problems.

And filter water is drinkable. No salt.

and drinking salty water isnt nice or healthy.

I was worried about this but water from mine doesn’t taste noticeably salty. Slightly different to the unsoftened but not unpleasant.

WRT healthy isn’t this one of the myths about water softeners?
“When softening water, sodium is added to the concentration, not salt. The equivalent increase of salt intake by the average individual drinking two litres of softened water a day is 0.696 g.This is about one tenth of a teaspoonful.”
https://www.harveywatersofteners.co.uk/softened-water-faqs/drinking/how-much-sodium-is-added-to-water-during-softening/

Ensure you keep it properly maintained too, they can fill up with all manner of gunk when left unloved.

What needs maintaining? I didn’t notice any instructions for doing this on the info that came with mine.