VW in UK?

On the BBC:

French Finance Minister Michel Sapin has called for an EU inquiry, but a UK car industry spokesman said there was “no evidence” of cheating.
Mike Hawes, who is chief executive of the UK’s Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders, said the EU operated a “fundamentally different system” from the US, with tests performed in strict conditions and witnessed by a government-appointed independent approval agency.
“There is no evidence that manufacturers cheat the cycle,” he said. “Vehicles are removed from the production line randomly and must be standard production models, certified by the relevant authority – the UK body being the Vehicle Certification Agency, which is responsible to the Department for Transport.”

He seems not to have understood how the cheat works. VW put code in every production vehicle that could tell when the test was being done.

About the only mitigation I see accessible to VW right now is ‘But all the other boys were doing it, Sir’. So if VW happened to know about others in the industry, would there be leaks?

If it’s happened in the UK, will the drivers get tax demands in retrospect? Oh what fun, queues of angry owners waving bills at the doors of VAG main dealers…

I can see a class action lawsuit in the US over this following on swiftly from the fines, esp if the mods reduce mpg……

They won’t. There was a special program that detected if the test was being done and put it in some super economical not-very-drivable state. When driving normally it reverted to a normal program. So owners won’t notice anything.

Surely this is a tacit admission that internal combustion engines have had their day and are doing too much damage to justify their benefit and such widespread use?

If you have to cheat a test like this, you’re admitting that your product is damaging the environment – if you weren’t causing damage, there’d be nothing to hide…

Good to see they’re being hit very hard where it hurts: the bottom line. Share price has been massively hit and from the FT ” VW now faces steep fines and possible criminal charges, and a difficult time restoring its brand”. This is the good thing about capitalism – money is the motivator so remove the profit opportunity and you can get companies to change bad behaviour far more quickly than you will through regulation. I suspect the Chief Exec will be gone in time, too…

It feels slow and painful, but with self-driving and electric cars being invested in more and more, we may finally be moving to a post-internal combustion engine-powered, drive-everywhere-all-the-time world…

They won’t. There was a special program that detected if the test was being done and put it in some super economical not-very-drivable state. When driving normally it reverted to a normal program. So owners won’t notice anything.

They’ll notice the difference when VW are forced to make cars run on the “super economical not-very-drivable state” all the time, not just when the bonnet is open.

Or they’ll notice the difference to their pocket when the car moves up by three VED bands!

They won’t. There was a special program that detected if the test was being done and put it in some super economical not-very-drivable state. When driving normally it reverted to a normal program. So owners won’t notice anything.

So what is the recall going to achieve? Are they going to just un-install this bit of code and the car will be returned to the owner? Surely they’ll have to be retested and the owners taxed, (or whatever process they use in the US) on the basis of the new result. The other option is the cars will have to run in emissions test mode to meet their original result and as you say will be virtually un-drivable.

edit – beaten to it. It just stuck me, the recall will proably install a small bonnet prop to keep it open a couple of inches. Like modders used to do on old Beetles to increase the cooling air flow. 😀

There was a law company on the radio yesterday starting a class action against VW, though I can’t remember the reason. VW have put aside 4.7bn to fund all this, won’t be enough I reckon.

If you have to cheat a test like this, you’re admitting that your product is damaging the environment – if you weren’t causing damage, there’d be nothing to hide…

Yes, possibly and it might be that the test has set unobtainable targets which causes everyone to cheat. The non-viable ‘product’ might be the motor car itself rather than just VW’s cars.

Also cars cause damage regardless, its shades of grey rather than black and white, bad and good.

On Radio 4 they had a good bit about this this morning.

The ECU doesnt detect when its on a test as such, but obviously it is common knowledge what the test cycle is. The ECU is just set to perform favourably for emissions for that given condition. The test regieme has created its own way of getting around it.

They were also saying that all manufacturers are at it.

And that Europe could be worse as it is only pre production cars that are used in EU tests, and these vehicles are especially worked on to produce the best emmissions/mpg’s they can. They called them ‘Golden Cars’

Apparently independant tests on EU cars have found emissions 10x higher than published figures.

The ECU doesnt detect when its on a test as such, but obviously it is common knowledge what the test cycle is. The ECU is just set to perform favourably for emissions for that given condition. The test regieme has created its own way of getting around it.

They were also saying that all manufacturers are at it.
For years I have assumed that I will not get the mpg claimed, and therefore the emissions will be much more than stated, and that the tests are usable as a ‘guide’ only.

brooess – Member
Surely this is a tacit admission that internal combustion engines have had their day and are doing too much damage to justify their benefit and such widespread use?

I disagree. As Dmorts points out, the flawed strategy of trying to step-down emissions via introducing ever lower output bandings. Was always going to result in this outcome. Now, either VW are singularly delinquent and will be punished accordingly, or the rest of the industry may have had to resort to a similar strategy to remain competitive in the market place. In which case, well I think we can see where that leads.

ICs are not as much the problem as the fuels we burn in them. I have to laugh at the stubbornly entrenched who refuse to consider anything other than a future where all cars are propelled via electric motors.

It’ll come down to a debate over the letter of the law vs the spirit of the law. If VW cars can run in a way that makes them pass the test cycle then they pass the test cycle.

There will be no change in tax bands or retrospective taxing etc since the respective governments themselves have certified and categorised the cars.

It’ll come down to a debate over the letter of the law vs the spirit of the law. If VW cars can run in a way that makes them pass the test cycle then they pass the test cycle.

There will be no change in tax bands or retrospective taxing etc since the respective governments themselves have certified and categorised the cars and people have bought them according to that criteria.

There was suprise when polution levels didnt fall as expected with Euro5, it would be nice to think manufacturers will now be forced to genuinly meet Euro6 but I doubt it’ll happen.

All the big profit Jags, LR, BMW, Audi boxes would be history overnight.

@jimjam the tax bands dont need changing, the cars just need to comply with them.

I can see a class action lawsuit in the US over this following on swiftly from the fines, esp if the mods reduce mpg……

@footflaps its already been launched.

Regarding comments above about it being the demise of internal combustion or the big luxury saloons that nonsense. This will arrest the growth of diesel which was already on the cads not least as major cities like Paris where already discussing banning diesels from the city. I have never subscribed to the view that diesel was cleaner.

wilburt

@jimjam the tax bands dont need changing, the cars just need to comply with them.

I didn’t say that they did. I was replying to people up ^^^^^ there somewhere who were musing about the possibility of a VW car being changed from one tax band to another, or owners being taxed retrospectively in light of new information.

jimjam – Member
It’ll come down to a debate over the letter of the law vs the spirit of the law. If VW cars can run in a way that makes them pass the test cycle then they pass the test cycle

Yeap and the legislators probably need to ask themselves just what their true aim with such testing and certification was intended to achieve.

I feel it would always have lead to some “work around”. Then as you point out, all that’s left to decide is whether those work arounds are within the spirit of the process/test.

wilburt – Member

@jimjam the tax bands dont need changing, the cars just need to comply with them

As JimJam has pointed out. They do.

Do you think a 5.0 v8 petrol range rover could meet the Euro6 requirements if properly tested?

Yes, possibly and it might be that the test has set unobtainable targets which causes everyone to cheat.

Well – unobtainable whilst still meeting the somewhat spoiled tastes of the modern motorist. They still want their 150bhp cruiser. They could probably meet the targets with small cars and 3cyl diesels, but that would cause outrage amongst the population.

It’ll come down to a debate over the letter of the law vs the spirit of the law. If VW cars can run in a way that makes them pass the test cycle then they pass the test cycle.

I don’t think it will. What they have done is already illegal and VW have admitted it:

http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-caa-09-18-15.pdf

It might lead to different ways of testing though.

wilburt – Member
Do you think a 5.0 v8 petrol range rover could meet the Euro6 requirements if properly tested?

For goodness sake! Firstly, afaik VW don’t produce the range rover.

Secondly, yes VWs do pass the test, using a “defeat device”.
So technically, they pass, just not in the spirit of the test and cert process.

Yes, possibly and it might be that the test has set unobtainable targets which causes everyone to cheat.

Well – unobtainable whilst still meeting the somewhat spoiled tastes of the modern motorist. They still want their 150bhp cruiser. They could probably meet the targets with small cars and 3cyl diesels, but that would cause outrage amongst the population.[/quote]

Yes, unobtainable targets for a car that the public would still buy. In the end we only have ourselves to blame.

Still, is it going to be a great time buy a T5 van soon as VW prices slump?? 🙂

Does seem a fairly basic software feature:

I can’t believe that anyone, especially the governing bodies, are naive enough to believe that given the onerous standards that keep getting introduced that any of this is a surprise.

Until the tests are done in real world conditions they stand no chance of being representative.

More importantly than any of the health or moral issues does this mean VAG vehicles are no longer the default ‘best vehicle you can buy ever’ of the STW masses?

Do we hate them and their SIN now?

Do you think a 5.0 v8 petrol range rover could meet the Euro6 requirements if properly tested?

Yes, Mercedes SLs with a V8 that were built in the 80s still get a green sticker in Germany because pretty much any petrol engine with a cat passes both Euro an Californian regs. It’s diesel soot and NOX that are the problem.

I’ll bet my shiny petrol car that Volkswagen won’t be the only manufacturer to have gamed the emissions tests.

High NOx levels are an inherent feature of the way fuel is burned in a diesel engine.

Should be fun working on the new brand for Audi
Vorsprung Durch Technik – progress through technology becomes Betrug mit Technik – cheating with technology

Dmorts has it IMO – we only have ourselves to blame. If we, customers, demanded proper testing or were willing to pay the price/accept reduced performance of a car which didn’t wreck the environment, manufacturers would be less likely to cheat

More importantly than any of the health or moral issues does this mean VAG vehicles are no longer the default ‘best vehicle you can buy ever’ of the STW masses?

You’ll find them all doing it, I bet.

Question: If someone was about to order a new VW next week (one of the models in question) should they now be looking at another brand?

It’s probably the best time to be buying a VW… i would leave it a month or 2 until there monthly sales figures have dropped off. Then they will be desperate to sell them

rene59 – Member
Question: If someone was about to order a new VW next week (one of the models in question) should they now be looking at another brand?

Although I believe in “innocent until proven guilty” and so for now would personally avoid speculating about other OEMs.

I have a nagging feeling Molgrips is probably correct ^^^.

rene59 – Member

Question: If someone was about to order a new VW next week (one of the models in question) should they now be looking at another brand?

Yes, Toyota. 😛

@Solo etc and any others who arent getting it.

The VW (possibly others) software fiddle is just the icing, even without that particular wheeze (no pun) most cars, petrol included, wouldn’t get anywhere near Euro6 in real world driving, the bigger car the less likely.

That’s why we cant hit safe air quality levels.

Wallop, thanks. Like I said on the other thread: Will there be a knock on effect on vehicle excise? It’s been obvious for ages that the scheme is BS, I pay 10x the VED (a CO2 tax) on my 10 year old 2-litre petrol as my mate does on his new 2-litre diesel. I reckon I create about 1.5x the CO2 and less of everything else. Could be the start of a swing against diesel? Willburt, I reckon big petrols are fine. Don’t confuse NOx/PM with CO2.

Will there be a knock on effect on vehicle excise?

I can’t imagine how it would – that would be outrageous.

It’s been obvious for ages that the scheme is BS

Not really. It’s just that they’ve been fudging the tests. It’s meant to penalise high CO2 choices, so it’s not pro-rata based on actual amounts.

wilburt – Member

@Solo etc and any others who arent getting it.
Whoa there!

The VW (possibly others) software fiddle is just the icing, even without that particular wheeze (no pun) most cars, petrol included, wouldn’t get anywhere near Euro6 in real world driving, the bigger car the less likely.
So you’re saying that the targets set were unobtainable?
Yes, you’re probably correct

That’s why we cant hit safe air quality levels.

“Safe?”
Good luck on defining that.

All these car brands might be impacted by VW coz VW supply them engines of some sort …

Audi
Lamborghini
Bentley Motors
Bugatti Automobiles
Porsche
Ducati
Ducati Corse
MAN SE
Scania
SEAT
Suzuki
Škoda