Views on men in drag for charity

Whoever shut it down on the charity end needs sacking and replacing. Bad PR all round.

Just posted to say I’m enjoying this thread whilst it’s still open..😂

Whilst I’m neither here nor there on the issue of men dressing as woman (although I do find it profoundly unfunny), I do find it slightly ironic that the folks whom preach about not being offensive to others are the same ones that are calling folks who hold a different opinion ‘arseholes’ ..

Can’t we all just be a bit more tolerant of other peoples views…

the telly comedy show is, to them, further proof of that.

Yes I am aware of that. And I am not insensitive to the traumas of a suicidal 9 year old child FFS.

They obviously need help and support, if that wasn’t available then it is truly tragic.

I don’t however think that, for example, banning Mrs Brown’s Boys in case it upsets 9 year olds with gender identification issues is the appropriate response.

@brucewee, online abuse is *far” more likely to trigger self harm than charity money raising in drag.

I’m pretty sure people have actually killed themselves. (In fact, I think someone on STW has.)

Agree?

Ah yes, I’m the one who is saying things most likely to trigger a mental health crisis on this thread?

Between that and the absolute pile of horse manure you wrote above I think we know where you stand on this so don’t try and portray your side as being the ‘victims’.

Ignorance is one thing. Wilful ignorance that takes the levels of mental gymnastics you and ernielynch are displaying can only come from a place of deep seated prejudice and I have absolutely no time or patience for bigots.

I don’t however think that, for example, banning Mrs Brown’s Boys in case it upsets 9 year olds with gender identification issues is the appropriate response.

Yes, there are far better reasons to ban Mrs Brown’s Boys.

What do people think about that well-known MTBer, Grayson Perry?

Can’t we all just be a bit more tolerant of other peoples views…

Tolerant of all views or just the ones you personally don’t find offensive?

Whilst I do not agree with Ernie’s overall stance, it seems better to discuss these things rather than not. Calling people a **** piece of shit is not acceptable imho.

Why? Cos you’re in a position of weakness? Not a very nice place to be, is it?

Bleedin’ell if I was worried about offending middle-class liberal hypocrisy I certainly wouldn’t be arguing that a middle-age man dressing up as a woman is acceptable on one thread, whilst simultaneously arguing that calling a woman a fat slag was unacceptable on another thread.

Would I?

What do people think about that well-known MTBer, Grayson Perry?

No problem at all, he’s not ‘dressed as a woman’ for laughs or to belittle anyone.

I do find it slightly ironic that the folks whom preach about not being offensive to others are the same ones that are calling folks who hold a different opinion ‘arseholes’ ..

This.

When the Two Ronnie’s is deemed beyond the pale but vile Ad Homs are fine things are badly out of kilter.

Bleedin’ell if I was worried about offending middle-class liberal hypocrisy I certainly wouldn’t be arguing that a middle-age man dressing up as a woman is acceptable on one thread, whilst simultaneously arguing that calling a woman a fat slag was unacceptable on another thread.

Would I?

Calm down love, I haven’t read that other thread. Got a link?

And those comparing it to blacking up? For real?
Everything is getting banned nowadays. The world is moving to regulating and protecting peoples feelings somehow, which will lead to a whole host of future issues.

Soon you will be locked up just for calling someone a ****.

You hear all the time how young girls become depressed and self harm because they cant adhere to modern day beauty standards.
Lets also ban good looking and in shape women from dressing up as it could cause undue harm and offense.

What about young boys who cant quite make it to professional standards in sports they dedicate their lives to and then become depressed? Lets not highlight professional athletes on TV because it will upset all those that never made it.

Yeah these are pretty hyperbolic but the logic seems the same to me?

No problem at all, he’s not ‘dressed as a woman’ for laughs or to belittle anyone.

So anyone who puts on ‘womens’ clothing has to be deadly serious and mustn’t be jovial in any way? So what you’re basically saying, is that as long as it adheres to YOUR rules, it’s ok?

Should I, as a man, find Yentl offensive?

Whilst I do not agree with Ernie’s overall stance, it seems better to discuss these things rather than not. Calling people a **** piece of shit is not acceptable imho.

If you read back I think you’ll find I did try to discuss things.

I tried to make the link from something being socially acceptable, to being a bit of an arsehole thing to do, to finally being offensive.

He was obviously too busy trying to invalidate boriselbrus’ obviously very sensitive and painful ACTUAL LIVED EXPERIENCES to respond.

So yeah, I called him a **** piece of shit. Because he’s acting like one.

Maybe I am too. I really don’t care.

Calm down love

See, pleasantries cost nothing 🙂

It’s on the thread about the insulate protestors. Tbh I’m off that thread now. Probably time I was off this thread too.

I’m told it’s not nice being wrong, which apparently I am.

And I am not insensitive to the traumas of a suicidal 9 year old child FFS.

Honestly, that’s not the impression you’re giving, but I’ll be charitable and accept that nuance can be lost in these posts.

I don’t however think that, for example, banning Mrs Brown’s Boys in case it upsets 9 year olds with gender identification issues is the appropriate response.

I think Mrs Brown’s Boys is different, to be honest (ignoring the fact that it’s awful…). The joke there isn’t that he’s dressed as a woman, it’s the other stuff that goes on. He’s simply playing a character that happens to be a woman, like an actor/comedian may play any other role (and, yes, I know that actors playing roles that they “aren’t” in real life is another hornet’s nest, but lets’ leave that be for now).

It’s when the ‘joke’ itself is that there’s a man dressed as a woman, and that in itself is supposed to be funny, that there’s a problem.

So anyone who puts on ‘womens’ clothing has to be deadly serious and mustn’t be jovial in any way? So what you’re basically saying, is that as long as it adheres to YOUR rules, it’s ok?

Not at all, Grayson seems like a pretty jovial person. The problem I’ve got is with people in a (relative) position of power taking advantage of that power in order to keep others weak.

Bit of a poor argument there bridges, waaaay too absolutist. If something’s not white it doesn’t necessarily have to be black. Try being more fluid in your outlook 😁

What about principal boys and dames, in pantomime?

So yeah, I called him a **** piece of shit. Because he’s acting like one.

But luckily I find it incredibly hard to get offended.

Well lucky for me.

Bit of a poor argument there bridges, waaaay too absolutist. If something’s not white it doesn’t necessarily have to be black. Try being more fluid in your outlook

Oh I am. I was just questioning your application of a set of ‘rules’ that make something ok or not. Seemed quite binary to me…

You win. I can’t be **** bothered.

He was obviously too busy trying to invalidate boriselbrus’ obviously very sensitive and painful ACTUAL LIVED EXPERIENCES to respond.

So if boriselbrus had a lived experience of being called a “*POS” then you’d regard it as bad?

What if it wasn’t boriselbrus, who had that lived experience? What if it was someone else?

You win. I can’t be **** bothered.

But:

Why? Cos you’re in a position of weakness? Not a very nice place to be, is it?

?

You win

No. Fact, logic and reason won.

I’m desperately trying to find Yentl offensive…

You win. I can’t be **** bothered.

I can, god help me.

I was just questioning your application of a set of ‘rules’ that make something ok or not.

Like I said above; if someone chooses to dresses as a woman because that’s what they’d like to wear, smashing, whether they’re a jovial soul or a miserable get. If they do it because they think that a man dressed as a woman is, in and of itself, funny, that’s not really on.

As for the pantomime stuff, honestly, I’m not sure. My gut feel is it falls within my ‘Mrs Browns Boys defence’ above.

Fact, logic and reason won.

I think you’re flattering yourself a bit there, sunshine.

Tolerant of all views or just the ones you personally don’t find offensive?

Ernie has expressed an opinion, I don’t personally agree with it, but he’s more than entitled to it and I suspect it’s a viewpoint shared by many people who don’t frequent the echo chamber that is STW.

The fact you are calling him a piece of shit and an arsehole because you don’t agree with his opinion speaks volumes…

Like I said above; if someone chooses to dresses as a woman because that’s what they’d like to wear, smashing, whether they’re a jovial soul or a miserable get. If they do it because they think that a man dressed as a woman is, in and of itself, funny, that’s not really on.

So it’s all about YOUR opinions then? What about other people’s?

As for the pantomime stuff, honestly, I’m not sure. My gut feel is it falls within my ‘Mrs Browns Boys defence’ above.

So you haven’t really thought it through much then?

So it’s all about YOUR opinions then? What about other people’s?

You asked for clarification on what I (and kayla) thought the rules, and their application, were. Of course other people think differently.

So you haven’t really thought it through much then?

Well, you raised it about ten minutes ago, so I’ve not thought it through that much, no.

I’m desperately trying to find Yentl offensive…

You’re way ahead of me, I’m still struggling to be bothered about what some middle aged rugby players get up to.

If the sum total of the joke is ‘We’re men and we’re wearing women’s clothing. It’s funny cause men don’t wear women’s clothing’ then it’s not something that any charity, business, or public figure should be associating themselves with. Unless they are trying to signal their ‘values’ somehow.

Is Mrs Doubtfire offensive? My gut says no.

Is pantomime offensive? My gut is leaning more towards yes but it’s probably going to depend on how it’s done.

Is a rugby team dressing up as women for ‘comedy’ purposes offensive? I would say no. I would say it’s an arsehole thing to do though but that’s often SOP for some rugby clubs, unfortunately.

Should a business or charity associate themselves with this rugby team? Absolutely not.

Should Grayson Perry keep doing what they’re doing? Absolutely.

Well, you raised it about ten minutes ago, so I’ve not thought it through that much, no.

The traditions of pantomime have existed for quite a while, longer than either of us have been alive. So you have had some time to be thinking about it.

Or perhaps it never registered as problematic, because nobody told you it was?

Is pantomime offensive? My gut is leaning more towards yes but it’s probably going to depend on how it’s done.

Please elaborate. Be a better use of your time than abusing people, anyway.

Should a business or charity associate themselves with this rugby team? Absolutely not.

Should Grayson Perry keep doing what they’re doing? Absolutely.

I’d really love to hear the rationale behind this argument.

This thread perhaps unsurprisingly has developed into the usual internet clever clogs with absolutely no lived experience trying to score points over one another.

All you really need to do is read Boriselbrus’s post and digest what was actually being said. That’s it. It tells you what you really need to know. Thank you.

The words offend and offence seem to pop up an awful lot on this thread, but my takeaway from that post was not that that child was offended. It made them hate themselves. It crushed them.

You attitude towards that speaks volumes.

The fact you are calling him a piece of shit and an arsehole because you don’t agree with his opinion speaks volumes…

He wasn’t expressing his opinions. He was trying to invalidate the lived experiences of another forum member.

I challenged his opinions when he gave them and refused to tolerate him when he went beyond the pale.

Probably time I was off this thread too.

No mate, stick around. You might learn something, even admit that you’re wrong. First time for everything right?

This thread perhaps unsurprisingly has developed into the usual internet clever clogs with absolutely no lived experience trying to score points over one another.

Making assumptions about the ‘experience’ of others is not only ignorant, it’s also potentially dangerous. Why are you doing so?

All you really need to do is read Boriselbrus’s post and digest what was actually being said. That’s it. It tells you what you really need to know. Thank you.

Actually; I prefer to take information form as many different sources as possible, such as from people I know IRL who are trans, from reading/watching/listening to material by a plethora of writers on such matters, from men, from women, from everyone, in fact.
Boriselbrus’ account is just one of many. It doesn’t define the debate.

He wasn’t expressing his opinions. He was trying to invalidate the lived experiences of another forum member

Be mindful that this is in YOUR opinion. It isn’t in mine, or in that of others.

Or perhaps it never registered as problematic, because nobody told you it was?

But that’s how societal norms change, isn’t it? Stuff isn’t problematic until it is, see homophobia, drink driving, smacking children etc, etc etc. Stuff is taken for granted by pretty much everyone as being ‘fine’, until some people, who are usually initially classed as cranks or do-gooders, manage to persuade the majority to actually think about whether these things are actually ‘fine’ or not. And, slowly, those norms change.

So, no, I hadn’t really thought about whether panto dames or, indeed, rugby players dressing as women for charity, was ‘fine’ or not until this thread came up. Reading it, and especially boriselbrus’s posts has made me think about it, and come to the opinion that it’s probably not.

Is a rugby team dressing up as women for ‘comedy’ purposes offensive? I would say no.

However, several people have said, and are continuing to say things, which are hopelessly (and at this point I would say willfully because I honestly can’t understand how you can read what boriselbrus wrote and continue to spout the same shite about ‘offense’) ignorant.

🤔

Please elaborate. Be a better use of your time than abusing people, anyway.

If people are going to dish out abuse they should expect to receive it.

What ernielynch said to boriselbrus was abuse. He didn’t call them a piece of shit but to question someone’s recollections and feelings like that when you have absolutely no frame of reference, just to try to support your own bullshit argument is disgusting.

But yeah, calling someone a piece of shit is the worst thing that has been said on this thread.

I’d really love to hear the rationale behind this argument.

The argument has been made by myself and others several times on this thread. Try reading it again and understanding this time.

With Grayson Perry there is no ‘joke’.

With Pantomime it depends on whether the sum total of the joke is ‘I’m a man wearing a dress. It’s funny because men don’t wear dresses.’

With the rugby team there is no question the sum total of the ‘joke’ was ‘We’re men wearing dresses. It’s funny because men don’t wear dresses.’ Unless there is some hidden meaning to their actions I missed?