IMHO there’s a good summary of the problems with sending older aircraft here. The 5-year timeline for training will be zero-to-hero, a few months will be nearer the mark for experienced pilots
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/will-the-uk-send-combat-aircraft-to-ukraine/

Nato must have a few Tornado jets knocking about surely. Built in numbers and used by lots of airforce till fairly recently.

Germany, Italy and Saudi Arabia still use the Tornado, which is compatible with Storm Shadow. Lots of combat knowledge available but the aircraft that remain must be on borrowed time now, Tornado (not the same one 🙂 ) has been flying for almost 50 years since the prototype flew and I’d think that a few weeks in combat would finish the airframes off, which isn’t sustainable.
Germany was leaning towards F35 twelve months ago, but I don’t know how far from operational use they are and until then Tornado will surely stay https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germany-decides-principle-buy-f-35-fighter-jet-government-source-2022-03-14/

Nato must have a few Tornado jets knocking about surely. Built in numbers and used by lots of airforce till fairly recently. The ECM package is probably still effective against some of the sams tjat would be deployed.
Was a good ground support airframe, carried AA and smart munitions

As I understand it, Ukraine wants aircraft for air defense, not attack missions. What they need is an aircraft that has a modern radar, high speed and altitude performance, and long range missiles. They have to stay far enough away from Russian territory to be safe from AA missiles, so they need a radar that can detect low-flying aircraft or cruise missiles at distance, plus air-to-air missiles that they can fire from a safe distance. The higher and faster the aircraft can fly, the longer the effective range of the missiles.

Russian air defenses would cause huge losses for an aircraft like a Tornado trying to attack ground targets. Much better to use GPS guided missiles.

Mach 2.2 and 50,000ft isnt high enough or fast enough?

Although the ability to find ballistic missiles, plot an intercept then launch h an amraam requires todays radar technology.
Hitting shared drones with a cannon would be a peice of cake
Plus the F16 started life in the 70s, ok so it was in production later but its not new new.
And all new planes require alot of maintenance, are supet complex high tech peices of equipment.
Tornado was a brilliant mrca, range, payload, speed plus manoeuvrability. I guess with every single thing developed to kill people. The people who are going to be killed devise ways to prevent that happening, and mach7 sam missiles flying up your exhaust pipe isnt going to end well for the pilot

At least F16 is still built (currently block 70/72) so parts are theoretically available. Tornado hasn’t been built since the last century 🙂

Mach 2.2 and 50,000ft isnt high enough or fast enough?

Although the ability to find ballistic missiles, plot an intercept then launch h an amraam requires todays radar technology.

As I understand it, Patriot missiles will defend against ballistic missiles. F16 would use AMRAAMs to defend against cruise missiles and aircraft.

The F16 is still in production and the newer models have advanced radars and can fire precision guided missiles to launch stand-off attacks against ground targets. There are thousands of F16 in service around the world. It will depend entirely on the specific model that Ukraine is supplied as to what radar it carries and what missiles it can fire.

I don’t think any servicable Tornado ADVs would be available, all the RAF ones were withdrawn from service years ago. The GR versions would be extremely vulnerable to Russian air defenses if they tried to fly in and drop unguided bombs.

Plus the F16 started life in the 70s, ok so it was in production later but its not new new.

Again, just regurgitating what ive read but. Current or recently retired F16s will have a very different set of capabilities to those produced in the 70s.

At least F16 is still built (currently block 70/72) so parts are theoretically available. Tornado hasn’t been built since the last century 🙂

Poland is a current operator starting from 2006, Romania also current starting from 2010ish, id say theyd get a helping hand with the maintenance supply chains at the very least.

Again, just regurgitating what ive read but. Current or recently retired F16s will have a very different set of capabilities to those produced in the 70s.

I should think so, the F14 tomcat was the American fighter jet de jour in ‘Top gun’ released in 1986. I guess at that time, the F16 was more a prototype than a service jet, as they had the F15 Eagle inbetween?

As said, They can have a long life span as they can be refitted with new computers/weapons systems.

Simplifying, but the F14 and F15 are Navy and Air Force contemporaries. The F16 and the F18 are broadly the same (16- usaf, 18- usn)

Mach 2.2 and 50,000ft isnt high enough or fast enough?

It’s worth pointing out that the Tornado isn’t cheap to operate – it’s a swing-wing aircraft and as such this carries a significant weight and maintenance penalty. Moreover the F3 was at a significant disadvantage thanks to the fact that this long range, high altitude interceptor still carried the same engines that were optimised for low level flight as per the GR1/4.

There are more than four times as many F-16s as Tornadoes and various air forces have upgraded their early F-16A/Bs to F-16V standard which features an AESA radar amongst other improvements.

F14 tomcat was the American fighter jet de jour in ‘Top gun’ released in 1986. I guess at that time, the F16 was more a prototype than a service jet, as they had the F15 Eagle inbetween?

The F14 was a naval aircraft, the U.S. airforce equivalent is the F15. They were both introduced in the mid-1970s to replace the F4, following lessons learned in Vietnam. They were both very expensive so the F16 and F18 were introduced as cheaper aircraft to supplement them. Those both entered in the early 1980s. The F18E is a much larger development of the F18, it’s really a different aircraft. It’s of similar size to the F15 and replaced the F14. The F35 will eventually replace all of those.

The key thing for their capabilities will be the radar and electronics they have fitted. An early model airframe upgraded to the latest electronics will still be a very effective aircraft.

Ragarding the F16/F18 discussion, back in the 70’s there was a competetion for the new lighter fighter for the USAF. The entries were the YF16 and the YF17. The F16 won and the rest is history.

However, the USN also hade a requirment but the docterine of the day was that any naval aircraft had to be 2 engine so the F16(N) was ruled out. The USN went to Northrop and asked if they could produce a slightly larger Naval version of the YF17. The result was the F18. So both the F16 and F18 can trace their origin to the same tender.

Yes, and the YF17 has it’s roots in the F5. It just got bigger and more complex with every iteration. The F5 is tiny compared to the F18E.

F16 is an ageing aircraft, that requires lots of maintenance and spares

There’s lots of that about though, and lots of folks with that knowledge, It’ been in service so long that it’s well understood and servicing it is cheap and fast (unlike the Tornado) and it does well in roughly prepared strips. I’d say the short comings are the same as similar aircraft that would be replacing (MiG-29) it’s short range, day fighter that has a relatively underpowered radar (nose is small) and I think what the Ukraine air force need is something that can shoot down RU-AF interceptors (Su-27 and 35) which have 80-100 mile BVR that can track and shoot down F-16 from within Russian airspace. I don’t know if the F16 can even get close enough to engage.

Most important is that the F16 was the prettiest fighter of its day 😁

useful thread on F16s and operating them

A long🧵 on the challenges facing the Ukrainian Air Force *if* they receive F-16s anytime soon… Im prepared for the hate.

— TJ- Call sign: 'Tater' 🇺🇲🇹🇼🇽🇰🇺🇦🇬🇪 (@TJOSInt) May 20, 2023

So…er…

Someone has just invaded Russia (according to some very pro-Ukrainian Twitter accounts.

Im going to park that in the disinformation pile (mountain)

The Russian regime lost control of the border post of Kozinka. At least one Russian FSB border guard has been killed. A group called "Freedom of Russia Legion" claims on Telegram that they have liberated it, as well as the Kozinka itself.

They claim that are marching to… pic.twitter.com/NE3EUdkyj7

— (((Tendar))) (@Tendar) May 22, 2023

#BREAKING – [1/2] The Russian Volunteer Corpsc has entered the Belgorod region of the Russian Federation. Tanks, helicopters, artillery are taking part in the attack. there are no markings on the vehicles.#ukraine #russia #RussiaIsCollapsing pic.twitter.com/n2RtoaAdCK

— Intermarium 24 (@intermarium24) May 22, 2023

Presumably either nonsense of a diversionary tactic

Excellent thread @joefm

The jet that is probably the best fit for Ukraine is the Saab Gripen equipped with Meteor missiles, however it’s not a simple as having a whip-round and asking Saab to crank up production, Saab expects to produce thirty Gripen E aircraft this year, they’re all earmarked for Sweden and Brazil – the order for 34 Brazilian Gripens was placed in 2014 and it will be 2027 before all the jets are delivered.

The Gripen was designed to be maintained by conscripts and can be dispersed to operate from motorways. I would be surprised if the Gripen E wasn’t on Ukraine’s future shopping list, but for now it looks as though the choices are between refurbished F16s, newly retired F-18A/Cs or the Mirage 2000.

Ah, googled the right search terms now for the French newspaper report of Ukrainians being trained on Mirage 2000s

https://www.lefigaro.fr/international/la-france-forme-des-pilotes-ukrainiens-sur-des-mirage-20230322

For more than a month and a half, about thirty of them have been receiving accelerated training on French fighter-bombers at the air bases of Mont-de-Marsan and Nancy. According to the Ministry of Defence, the training of the pilots themselves would not have started, only that of “air military personnel”.

Article from March 23

No idea obviously of what was really happening/not happening

Im going to park that in the disinformation pile (mountain)

Maybe.
Maybe, just maybe, some of the Russian soldiers have had enough…

FREE RUSSIA LEGION

Allegedly the Free Russia Legion, which fights on the side of Ukraine but is composed of Russians, is invading southern Belgorod, Russia. pic.twitter.com/7EmFb3IgXi

— Jason Jay Smart (@officejjsmart) May 22, 2023

Just protecting ethnic Russians in western Russia. Nothing to see here.

More on that

https://twitter.com/noclador/status/1660634386042159108?t=_OxiqyIzK-Xn4GQH4ahIsg&s=19

The Russian Volunteer corps are a strange one, they hate Putin.so.. good.. but they’re not exactly wholesome.

However, if Ukraine wanted to cause a massive distraction and give Russian command conniption fits ahead of an offensive this would be a bloody fantastic way to do it.

A question: what percentage of military personnel are in Ukraine, killed or injured?
Any issues internally could be very hard to deal with if you have very thin resources over a country the size of Russia…

Obviously huge ‘pinch of salt’ qualifiers apply here but this is what the chatter is saying.

The RVC forces are reported to be already 5-8KM inside Russia and are currently fighting in the town of Grayvoron, they have already downed at least one helicopter sent to reinforce the border.

To make things even more spicy, there’s apparently a military base in Golovchino, which is the next town down the road from where the RVC are fighting… this base that holds nuclear weapons.

Crikey, I wouldn’t want to be the unfortunate Kremlin official who had to tell Putin about this.

Well it just shows how poorly defended they have left russia with all the focus on keeping Ukrainian territory. being mentioned on the beeb now as well so has some credibility.

yeah they appear to be far-right Russian nutters, I cant see how they dont end up getting taken out by Russia eventually

Ive seen numbers saying theres 1000+ of them , with a number of tanks, IFVs & drones, Russia will have to divert a fair number of troops to clear them out

will Russia have to call in air strikes on their own towns?

they seem to be good at causing chaos
https://twitter.com/officejjsmart/status/1660664585773363201

Well that’s a dirty/superb way of ensuring anyone in border or police uniform is going to keep out the way…

sounds like psyops to me to cause more confusion and distraction

It’s just been announced its a Special Military Operation.
Nothing to worry about.

Who had Putin declaring ACAB on their 2023 bingo card?

This is entirely the Imperialist CSTOs fault, if they hadnt aggressive expanded to Ukraine’s borders this never would if happened.

(Stolen from Twitter)

And Moldova continues to demonstrate they want to be part of Europe.

The people of #Moldova have sent a very strong message of European integration today. 80.000 people from all across the country, from the North and the South, from rural and urban areas, young and old, have come to support the European integration of Moldova. pic.twitter.com/sKP3PGfmB4

— Siegfried Muresan 🇷🇴🇪🇺 (@SMuresan) May 21, 2023

🇲🇩🇪🇺People chanting “Europa” today in Chisinau, to reaffirm #Moldova’s aspiration to follow a European path.

Sound on 📣 pic.twitter.com/XhsrmqW9E0

— Luciano Scambiato Licciardi (@LucianoSL_EU) May 21, 2023

This is entirely the Imperialist CSTOs fault, if they hadnt aggressive expanded to Ukraine’s borders this never would if happened.

Heh yes there has been a lot of very funny snark on Twitter today!

The screenshot I was that the ‘request to shoot police officers’ was not official but made by Igor Girkin on his telegram channel

It has been absolutely fascinating seeing this play out. Surely they’ll have to leg it back over the border sharpish? I doubt they’d be able to hang on too long once Russia scrambles some troops to sort it out (which they presumably have done by now).

yes but where is russia scrambling troops from? those would have been reserves ready to reinforce against a ukr counter attack. maybe we will see a few more smash and grab style attacks over the border to keep the Russians redeploying and to create opportunities for the larger attacks. rock and hard place for Russia, ignore and watch chaos unfold or redeploy and weaken defenses.

bet as soon as proper troops arrive they scarper, regroup and hit somewhere else

bet as soon as proper troops arrive they scarper, regroup and hit somewhere else

Even if they don’t hold their ground and retreat in the next 24 hours suddenly Russia has a huge stretch of border that they now have to secure and divert resources to just because of a 1,000 or so homegrown loons who will go yomping round their backyard if they don’t.

If they do hold out for even a few days the embarrasment and effect on morale will be enormous.

Ukrainian Twitter is in raptures about all this as you can well imagine.

“Russia started the war as the 2nd best army in the world, and now it’s the best army in Russia” lol

I used to think russia was the 2nd best army in the world. I was wrong. The war in Ukraine taught me it was the 2nd best army in Ukraine. Today I learned russia is barely the 2nd best army in russia. I love learning new things. pic.twitter.com/PsxxwfWq6T

— Fellarific (@fellarific) May 23, 2023

It’s also showing that there is/can be real opposition to Putin.
Every border guard, every police officer and every military base within 100miles of Ukraine is now on standby/high alert.
And every border guard, police officer, military personnel and politician across Russia has a wee germ of worry planted…

UAF really targeting RU artillery – 40 destroyed/captured yesterday alone!

Fantastic – they’ve been taking out 15 to 20 every day for weeks now, 40 is massive 👍