UKIP, the by-elections and Labour

There you go again. You really don’t get it do you? 🙂

Can I suggest that the sort of language they should be using should be like…

“We the labour party believe immigration is good/bad for Britain, here’s why, and here’s what we’re going to do about it”

This is Labour STW’s problem – a belief that only their point of view, experiences, expectations and wants are valid and the demonisation of any who dare to disagree with them.

Fixed that for you.

But I agree with Cranberry, and I’m in a similar situation to him/her as well.

Lots of disillusioned people out there (judging by the benefits by the seaside programme on C5 last night) that would never dream of voting Cons but are starting to like the cut of the UKIP jib. Some of the Labour voters I’ve come across are so right wing it’s scary but they could never bring themselves to vote Cons, well no they’ve got an alternative.

Labour should be concerned. In fact all of us us regardless of political persuasion should be concerned.

dazh – Member

No one’s talking about ignoring anything. But in order to implement the things you suggest you need to get into government. To do that you need votes. And you’re not going to get them if you confuse the hell out of people with techno-babble which is designed to hedge your bets so that you don’t actually have to come out and say which side of the argument you’re on. Whether the labour party is for or against immigration, it should come out and clearly state it’s position and then do it’s damndest in clear simple language to argue it’s case and persuade people to agree with them. People are not going to vote for them if they do not know what they stand for.

What I was saying wasn’t hedging bets it is the logical policy approach to some of the issues.

I believe it is too complex to say for for or against immigration is too simplistic. A level of immigration is necessary. Even UKIP say this! It is how you control and balance immigration that issues. Not a black and white issue.

Not a black and white issue

😯

And if you stopped 100 people randomly on the street and asked them to define ‘intercultural’, how many responses would resemble the description you’ve just given? Theres no way you’d get into double figures! And how many would look at you like you’d just been beamed down? Reckon it got much ‘traction’ in Middleton?

This is exactly what I’m talking about! This is exactly why people are alienated from politics. They don’t even think politicians speak the same language as them then. And they’re right! Ultimately its this kind of twaddle that says to normal people that they’re not in the exclusive club, because they don’t know these ridiculous words, phrases and acronyms, dreamt up by policy wonks in Westminster.

And someone like Farage just (rightly) mocks this drivel! Then he wins!

dazh – Member
There you go again. You really don’t get it do you?

Rather lose votes and say what I believe rather than play the easy cards like UKIP.

Rather lose votes and say what I believe

But that’s the whole point. You need to say what you believe in language people understand, otherwise it’s totally pointless. Is the labour party really so far up it’s own backside that they just don’t understand this?

Interculturalism is an evolution of this which actively encourages interaction between cultures in a society and the breaking down of segregation in society.

Integration then 🙄

@frosty I know what you are trying to say but it is stuff like that (especially if it where quoted by a Labour party candidate for example) which has people running to what they perceive as the “people’s alternative” (see Peter Tacthell’s remarks quoted by binners). But let me be very clear I think we can have multi-culturism with immigration control, the two are not mutually exclusive.

On Kelvin’s point I don’t have a philisophical problem with state funded faith schools, we’ve had CoE and Catholic schools for the longest time, however they should be reflective of modern British values and recognise that all faiths including those who have none have an equal standing.

I would imagine Ed Milliband will be having some uncomfortable conversations over the weekend as will Cameron and Clegg.

I’ll be out of circulation but will try and follow, have fun !

Speaking in Heywood, where he congratulated winning candidate Liz McInnes, Mr Miliband said Labour had changed and realised it was “not prejudiced” to worry about immigration.

So the Lady wasn’t a Bigot then…….official!

Not a black and white issue

😯

lol!

On the black and white I meant yes or no on or off I or O but i think you guys knew that 😉

ninfan – Member
Integration then

Not necessarily integration might imply that those of other cultures rejecting their old culture and confirming to a new one.

Faith schools are about segregation. They support and enforce it, even when they teach otherwise.

Personally I’m against faith schools for that reason.

Not necessarily integration might imply that those of other cultures rejecting their old culture and confirming to a new one.

I thought that thats what we wanted in Britain?

In fact the entire future of a culturally sensitive and vibrant society depends on people rejecting parts of their old culture – like the suppression of women, forced marriage, female genital mutilation, nepotism, corruption, binge drinking, violence, etc.

Yes some aspects of some cultures are totally incompatible and you have named some of them. However there is an even longer list that is compatible. I don’t think we need some sort of 1950s mono culture. BTW were you taking the piss RE binge drinking?

Well I had a chat with our resident dyed in the wool labour supporter we live in working class west London Brentford that’s gradually being gentrified by the likes of us guardianista types.
My neighbour (former postie) voted labor all his life,still delivers leaflets for em etc, is very worried about ukip, he’d never vote for em as they’re just Tories in disguise, Hes written to Ed twice saying he should say he should back an EU referendum as it’d win them the election.
He might just be right

You right Kimbers there is no denying there is a UKIP problem. But I don’t think we should try and out UKIP UKIP!

BTW were you taking the piss RE binge drinking?

Why? its a very unappealing element of British culture that has (arguably) reduced massively in recent years!

or did you think I meant that only immigrants needed to adapt their cultures for the benefit of society?

Interesting point of view I think binge drinking is very destructive but it is widely accepted as part of culture.

Stopping foreigners from being all muslamic is one thing but attacking the rights of a man to get smashed in his local boozer ….. You must be a Looney 😉

Come the election you will see high profile left leaning policies form UKIP, on say tax.

No we wont we will see low taxes masquerading as helping the poor. The slash and burn affect their low tax will have on the poor wont. They will probably get lucky as the average voter is not that bright so will probably buy the spin.

Also I do not in any way see immigration control as a right vs left policy choice.

Which parties tend to get most uptight about immigration Right wing ones or left wing ones? I agree some of it crosses over but only in times of a poor economy when we forget to blame the fat cat bankers and global corporations for the economic situation and low wages and instead blame other piss poor people form somewhere even poorer.

Maybe because this thread is titled “UKIP, the by-elections and Labour”

Thanks Sherlock

Of course I could have just saved myself all those words and described your comments as whataboutery.

Have I been unclear in stating why i think it is right wing distraction from their own failings and unclear about stating that the labour vote held up and increased. Shall I cut and paste my own quotes 😈

If UKIP really aren’t a threat to Labour electorally, then why didn’t Labour increase their share of the vote by 11.2% as they did in Wythenshawe and Sale East just 6 months ago?

Was it because lib dems and tory voters changed from them and went to UKIP rather than to labour? Its obvious each parties [ bar UKIP] will reduce if it becomes a four party system. Labours vote is holding up the best and the other two are dead.

Labour vote has lost 7k voters

Turnout down 8k see if you can work it out what happened to their vote

Poor sod, Greene King IPA 😮

speaking of schools…

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/11154466/David-and-Samantha-Cameron-look-to-send-daughter-to-inner-city-comp.html

linky no worky

@kimbers I don’t think Labour could justify an in/out referndum. It goes against so much of their policy.also if they had a vote and it was for an exit they wouldnt know what to do. I think theyd be genuinely afraid of such a thing

JY I suspect the average voter wouldnt see through UKIPs headline grabbing tax cuts, which means you’ll have your work cut out explaining it to them all

I have my work cut on here never mind out there 😉

Indeed you are correct but I cannot fathom how Labour voters can see this cabal of to right wing and racist for the Tory party as their saviours.

I know what you mean Junkyard

I don’t think Labour could justify an in/out referndum. It goes against so much of their policy

Just like the lib dems grandstanding over tuition fees ?

The Scottish referendum has shown that the parties can work together if they have to as shonky as the no campaign was, it worked
In my fantasy land wed have the politicians to easily spell out the obvious disaster of leaving the EU and the support of the objective media…..

It goes against so much of their policy.also if they had a vote and it was for an exit they wouldnt know what to do. I think theyd be genuinely afraid of such a thing

There is significant opposition to the EU within the Labour Party, the fact these views aren’t widely aired is purely down to the control that the right-wing faction which seized control of the party 20 years ago exerts over all aspects of party presentation.

Back in the day when the Labour Party was a democratic organisation and party policy was not decided by one man, Labour Conference voted to withdraw from the EEC. In fact in 1983 Labour fought the general election on a manifesto commitment to withdraw from the EEC, it was one of the principle reasons why the SDP was formed out of disgruntled right-wingers.

In contrast btw the Tory Party under Thatcher at that time was very pro-EEC. Thatcher had criticised the previous Labour government for refusing to sign up to the Exchange Rate Mechanism.

There has always been strong opposition to the EEC/EU from within the left of the Labour Party, as typified by Tony Benn’s opposition. And although it has now become a left-right issue within the Labour Party it wasn’t always so, many on the right of the party were opposed to EEC membership. Labour’s most outspoken critic of the EEC was the cabinet member Peter Shore, not someone who was particularly left-wing.

What he said.

Interesting commentary Ernie.

Ed Miliband for PM … look into my eyes … look into my eyes.

Or Nick Clegg for PM … look into my eyes … look into my eyes.

That will learn you … they are watching youuuuuu … 😆

Some will say that UKIP have no policies, but looking at the Labour and Conservative website shows that these parties have even less credible policies. Read for yourself:

http://www.ukip.org/policies_for_people

Where We Stand

http://www.conservatives.com/Plan.aspx

A quick look through these suggests that UKIP are at least trying to have some policies that act in the interests of the citizens and not the ruling elites that dominate the main parties.

Yes but cowboy, most of that list is complete bllx apart from some of the tax stuff and abolishing the Ministry of Climate Change.

Read for yourself

But first of all I want to know if it’s approved by Nigel Farage.

Nigel Farage Disowns UKIP Manifesto As ‘Drivel’

UKIP leader Nigel Farage has disowned the party’s entire general election manifesto – which he helped launch – branding it “drivel”.

I don’t want to read it if it’s drivel mtbcowboy.

Some of it may be complete bllx but is it less bllx than the main parties attempts at policies?

On your link it says that the manifesto he disowned was the 2010 one. That is different to the policies on the website. Political parties change their policies from time to time that is normal.

If it is drivel you at least have to read it to know it is drivel. My point is that many people don’t go to the websites and read the manifesto or policies. They just take in what the TV feeds them which often doesn’t cover all the policy topics.

Some of it may be complete bllx but is it less bllx than the main parties attempts at policies?

No they really do win the medal for bllx. Way ahead of other parties (SNP/yS aside)

If it is drivel you at least have to read it to know it is drivel.

Not at all, if Nigel Farage says that the entire UKIP manifesto he helped to launch is drivel, then that’s good enough for me. I’m sure he’s right. He should know after all – who am I to argue ?

But first of all I want to know if it’s approved by Nigel Farage.

Well he signed the last one – technically he is named in the foreword there are no signatories
He then claims to have not read it or contributed to it iirc