UK state should pay for housing, food, transport and internet

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  • UK state should pay for housing, food, transport and internet
  • Peyote
    Member

    because education has little importance if you don’t need to work

    I think this quote illustrates a lot of what is wrong.

    It’s not just the system that needs reform/revolution, it’s peoples perceptions and value standards. When education, “the pursuit of knowledge” for gods sake!, is viewed simply as a means to get work, then something is surely wrong.

    Premier Icon dazh
    Subscriber

    Petty crime would go through the roof. Millions of people with no need to work but:

    It must be a uniquely cynical, suspicious and depressing thing being you.

    Really so giving someone a roof over their head would stop the mental issues caused by drug taking/fighting for our country etc etc that stops people functioning normally in a house enviroment

    Of course not but these are fringe cases. The vast majority of homeless exist because they have been abandoned by the benefits system and don’t have a support network of people to look after them. If you add UBI to my other favourite radical policy (legalisation of drugs and proper treatment of addiction) then the vast majority of cases of homelessness would disappear. The rest could be very quickly mopped up with targeted treatment and counselling.

    Peyote
    Member

    I don’t think a universal payment would rid us of all mental health issues, but would it do so for those mental health issues that are caused by poverty? Certainly. wouldn’t you think?

    If then that frees up a budget of money to help those people who’s mental health isn’t caused by poverty, then that’s a benefit as well, no?

    It’d probably help with physical health too, again less pressure on the utopian health service. Poverty = higher incidence of disease is well researched area.

    trail_rat
    Member

    Sorry I must have missed it. Remind me again how spending a huge chunk of change on basic needs met frees up more money for mental health issues ?

    And not everyone is homeless just because of mental health issues- some have addictions that mean everything is spent on feeding it

    Not every mental/addiction illness is treatable either and Not everything is solved by giving money/equivalent services.

    trail_rat
    Member

    Fwiw I’m as I stated earlier I’m all for the concept I just don’t believe it will create molgrips utopia

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    Really so giving someone a roof over their head would stop the mental issues caused by drug taking

    Article about the ‘Rat Park’ study. Food for thought.

    outofbreath
    Member

    When education, “the pursuit of knowledge” for gods sake!, is viewed simply as a means to get work, then something is surely wrong.

    If you didn’t have to work you wouldn’t need a formal education. You could spend hours reading/learning/educating yourself about things that interest you.

    So yeah, I wouldn’t have learned about Calculus, but I would have read a vast amount more of (say) popular History.

    So education for the sake of Education would flourish, because people could just skip all the stuff that didn’t interest them and could devote huge amounts of time to the stuff that does. But yeah, formal schooling/university would be needless.

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Subscriber

    Peyote – Member
    because education has little importance if you don’t need to work
    I think this quote illustrates a lot of what is wrong.

    It’s not just the system that needs reform/revolution, it’s peoples perceptions and value standards. When education, “the pursuit of knowledge” for gods sake!, is viewed simply as a means to get work, then something is surely wrong.

    100%.

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Subscriber

    didn’t interest them and could devote huge amounts of time to the stuff that does. But yeah, formal schooling/university would be needless.

    not needless, just needing reformed and expanded.

    I find it staggering that people studying what they are interested in seems to be a revolutionary idea.

    Premier Icon dazh
    Subscriber

    Sorry I must have missed it. Remind me again how spending a huge chunk of change on basic needs met frees up more money for mental health issues ?

    It’s fairly simple, prevention is better than cure. It’s an established fact that poor health is inextricably linked to poverty. If you reduce poverty, you improve health, and reduce the burden on health services, freeing up resources for other things. All it takes is an abandonment of the ‘something for nothing’ prejudices.

    Premier Icon nickc
    Subscriber

    Not every mental/addiction illness is treatable either and Not everything is solved by giving money/equivalent services.

    No one has suggested it would.

    I’m all for the concept I just don’t believe it will create molgrips utopia

    Again, no one has suggested it would, UBI probably isn’t the final response or answer to Capitalism, but then capitalism certainly isn’t a Utopia either (apart from a teeny few at the very tippy-top). UBI is really just a step towards some equality…

    amedias
    Member

    because education has little importance if you don’t need to work

    I think this quote illustrates a lot of what is wrong.

    It’s not just the system that needs reform/revolution, it’s peoples perceptions and value standards. When education, “the pursuit of knowledge” for gods sake!, is viewed simply as a means to get work, then something is surely wrong.[/quote]

    + a million, I learn to learn, not because I think it’ll get me more Β£

    And not everyone is homeless just because…

    [quote]Not every mental/addiction illness..[/quote]

    Not everything is solved

    Nothing is perfect, you’re never fix everything, but you can make things better without reaching perfection, and not being able to reach perfection in one step is not a reason not to try and take the steps in between.

    A large proportion of mental health issues, addiction, crime etc. are a result of falling out of the bottom of the existing system.

    The problems (cos there will always be some) could be massively reduced if the bottom of the system was more supportive rather than a bottomless pit you can spiral into with just one slip…

    outofbreath
    Member

    I find it staggering that people studying what they are interested in seems to be a revolutionary idea.

    Revolutionary, but not bad, surely? Wouldn’t you prefer that?

    With almost no work to be done they spent their entire lives doing whatever they felt like.

    Perish the thought that people aren’t put to work to make profit for others.

    Sounds like a brilliant life to me, what’s wrong with it? It’s UBI. Everyone gets food and shelter dropped in their lap, but they have to manage without disposable cash. Genuinely idylic. What’s the problem?

    trail_rat
    Member

    fair points amedias

    the other point i have is that simply chosing to learn in the things that interest you is not a great thing either .

    There are things that dont interest most people that are essential life skills imo…..

    (For those that have not realised im bored waiting for a flight and playing devils advocate)

    Premier Icon dazh
    Subscriber

    UBI is really just a step towards some equality…

    Not even that I would say. It’s a step towards basic humanity, which is currently sadly lacking. It’s shocking and depressing that the simple idea of providing basic life needs is seen as such a divisive and radical policy.

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Subscriber

    outofbreath – Member
    I find it staggering that people studying what they are interested in seems to be a revolutionary idea.
    Revolutionary, but not bad, surely? Wouldn’t you prefer that?

    I don’t understand your question?

    I also don’t know why you are still going on about no work, we disproved that theory of yours pages ago.

    Wait, I forgot your intentions to become a master luthier, boat builder, fisherman, musician and cocktail stick carver! πŸ˜†

    amedias
    Member

    the other point i have is that simply chosing to learn in the things that interest you is not a great thing either .

    There are things that dont interest most people that are essential life skills imo…..

    No reason there could not be a balance, a formal curriculum and the additional freedom beyond that. The beauty of being able to pursue your interests is that it often leads of other unexpected interests as well, and with the freedom to choose you’re more invested in your learning rather than rebelling against a prescribed ‘you must learn this’ style approach.

    Those essential life skills can be pretty easily delivered by a properly functioning society though, whether formally or through family etc.

    There’s an argument that perhaps our narrow minded pursuit of teaching only the skills that (on paper) might make you employable means we’ve neglected those other areas?

    playing devils advocate

    In case it’s not obvious, I do actually approve of this. It’s often a great way to explore not only other peoples views but also get a better understanding of your own.

    Premier Icon nickc
    Subscriber

    t’s a step towards basic humanity

    yep, agree 100%

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    But yeah, formal schooling/university would be needless.

    No.. this isn’t going to be utopia. UBI won’t be much of a life. But it’ll keep a roof over your head and keep you and your family fed. And it will mean you can quit your shit job with manupulating boss, or leave your abusive partner, or get away from your controlling parents if you feel you need to. You would have somewhere to go.

    And it’ll alter the balance of power between employers and employees, and in many ways the rich and powerful will become less powerful I reckon.

    But almost everyone will still work, cos life would be piss boring with nothing beyond basic food and shelter. We will still aspire to more, of course we will. Which is why we’ll need education. That’ll still be mandatory.

    plyphon
    Member

    nickc – Member
    But the question is, how do you make the life of someone doing a shit job (my expression) better?
    By perhaps giving them a boost to their wages that is not based on welfare benefits as a punitive measure? (as they are currently), I dunno, maybe a universal payment given to everyone in society? And perhaps re-ordering society so that it is not directed solely towards the amassing of vast wealth by a tiny few. This is not beyond our imagination but it does mean a revolution. Along with revolutions in how we allocate resources, choose not pollute, and automate our production.

    Agreed.

    But I don’t think giving people more benefits reaches the objective of “making their shit job better”- some have theorised it might introduce more mental health issues as it tells someone their labour isn’t important and needs to be propped up by the state. Imagine being told your labour is so worthless that the state needs to give you “the essentials to life” so that you don’t starve and die.

    Personally, I’d like to see redistribution of some wealth by sorting out the corporate tax system so big businesses pay their fair way – but this needs to happen globally/large scale so we don’t end up with more havens or loopholes.

    If only that topic got as much coverage and effort from Zuckerberg, Musk, Bezos etc as UBI. I wonder why they don’t want to sort out that one hey?

    outofbreath
    Member

    No.. this isn’t going to be utopia. UBI won’t be much of a life.

    It will for me. I have a wide range of interests that can be done on a shoestring I’m resourceful enough to manage on near-zero cash.

    For me to buy an annuity that would fund housing and food for the rest of my life would cost a 6 figure sum. UBI covering life’s basics would literally make me a millionaire, allbeit I could never realize the cash as a lump sum.

    For me that’s utopia.

    Premier Icon nickc
    Subscriber

    But I don’t think giving people more benefits reaches the objective of “making their shit job better”-

    Again, UBI isn’t a Utopian dream state, it’s about treating people with a bit of equality and humanity.

    Premier Icon dazh
    Subscriber

    Imagine being told your labour is so worthless that the state needs to give you “the essentials to life” so that you don’t starve and die.

    If a UBI is to ever be realised, it’s going to require a seismic shift in attitudes and psychology across the whole of society. This is probably the main obstacle to it being implemented. As well as changing the ‘something for nothing’ prejudice most people have, it’s also going to require changing the insecurities many people at the bottom have about feeling worthless. This is going to be a very difficult and long term project.

    Premier Icon nickc
    Subscriber

    Imagine being told your labour is so worthless

    I don’t think the people that clean up after I’ve left the office are worthless, and I’d imagine they don’t think that either. That you can suggest it, probably says more about your attitudes to the low paid TBH.

    EDIT, Like every hill I’ve ridden with him, beaten to it by Dazh πŸ˜†

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    Imagine being told your labour is so worthless that the state needs to give you “the essentials to life” so that you don’t starve and die.

    What do you think working tax credit is for?

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    I’m resourceful enough to manage on near-zero cash.

    Ok but you don’t get near zero cash, you get actual zero cash (in some ideas.. not with others of course).

    Another thought:

    If McDonalds burgers still needed flipping, but no-one was prepared to flip them, you’d bet they’d invest a lot of money in an automatic restaurant rather than close down.

    Driverless tube trains, too, molgrips.

    outofbreath
    Member

    Ok but you don’t get near zero cash, you get actual zero cash

    As it happens I reckon I could manage on zero cash, but yeah, as and when I need it I’d do the odd week here and there. Just as some retired people do now. BUt that assumes the tax system made working even short hours a sane option. I think it’s more likely I’d be doing return favors for people on a barter basis.

    If McDonalds burgers still needed flipping, but no-one was prepared to flip them, you’d bet they’d invest a lot of money in an automatic restaurant rather than close down.

    Would you need fast food if you didn’t have to go to work? I go to McDonalds because it’s fast. If I have an extra 60 hours a week spare I’d be cooking quality stuff at home, not snatching five minutes to scoff a Sausage MacMuffin on my way to work. So yeah, McDonalds wouldn’t be able to source as many staff, but they wouldn’t need to because they wouldn have as many customers.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    If I have an extra 60 hours a week spare I’d be cooking quality stuff at home, not snatching five minutes to scoff a Sausage MacMuffin on my way to work.

    I think we’ve established you’re not typical πŸ™‚

    Premier Icon dazh
    Subscriber

    beaten to it by Dazh

    ‘Working’ from home today. That’s my only excuse πŸ™‚

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Subscriber

    Would you need fast food if you didn’t have to go to work? I go to McDonalds because it’s fast. If I have an extra 60 hours a week spare I’d be cooking quality stuff at home, not snatching five minutes to scoff a Sausage MacMuffin on my way to work. So yeah, McDonalds wouldn’t be able to source as many staff, but they wouldn’t need to because they wouldn have as many customers.

    Adding master chef to the list, very talented fella! πŸ˜†

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Subscriber

    If McDonalds burgers still needed flipping, but no-one was prepared to flip them, you’d bet they’d invest a lot of money in an automatic restaurant rather than close down.

    they’ll do that eventually, infact they’ve already started, you don’t even need to speak to anyone to order and pay for your food in some of them. the mcdonald people will be out of a job soon enough, as will supermarket check out staff, those transformations are well under way.

    outofbreath
    Member

    Would you need fast food if you didn’t have to go to work? I go to McDonalds because it’s fast. If I have an extra 60 hours a week spare I’d be cooking quality stuff at home, not snatching five minutes to scoff a Sausage MacMuffin on my way to work. So yeah, McDonalds wouldn’t be able to source as many staff, but they wouldn’t need to because they wouldn have as many customers.

    Adding master chef to the list, very talented fella!

    I assumed the free food the state would provide would be food I had to prepare for myself?

    plyphon
    Member

    nickc – Member

    I don’t think the people that clean up after I’ve left the office are worthless, and I’d imagine they don’t think that either. That you can suggest it, probably says more about your attitudes to the low paid TBH.

    Thats a false equivalence and a personal attack against me. Not appreciated when I’m just trying to stir discussion and understand the concept. I’ve not attacked anyone here AFAIK know, so not sure why thats warranted.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    they’ll do that eventually, infact they’ve already started

    I wonder if automation will force UBI rather than the other way round? Interesting.

    JSA is based around helping you find work and forcing you to take it, but if there aren’t the jobs available, that won’t work. The government may just decide that it’s better to just pay everyone a flat rate and be done with it, hoping that the numbers who voluntarily quit or take reduced hours because they have their UBI will enable more people to get part-time work.

    Would UBI make more sense if jobs are scarce but the economy is still growing?

    Premier Icon miketually
    Subscriber

    We already have a level of non-universal basic income in this country: those under 18 receive a universal state payout, as do those over 67 (or whatever the current age is); there’s only around 50 years in the middle where universal state support doesn’t exist.

    The level of UBI could be set relatively low: enough cash to rent a room with communal facilities, pay for energy use, and enough peas and rice to be physically sustained. If this were the case, it’d still be a safety net rather than a way of life but it would also help to get rid of a raft of non-universal benefits and, with a decent livable minimum wage, could also remove the need for tax credits, etc.

    Free-market Libertarian types should love this, because it simplifies and/or removes a whole load of state apparatus currently needed for administering the complex benefits system.

    Remove the tax-free allowance (as UBI is essentially a negative income tax rate) and set tax levels such that anyone currently on the national median wage doesn’t lose out. Those below median will benefit while those above will pay a little more.

    plyphon
    Member

    Would you need fast food if you didn’t have to go to work? I go to McDonalds because it’s fast. If I have an extra 60 hours a week spare I’d be cooking quality stuff at home, not snatching five minutes to scoff a Sausage MacMuffin on my way to work. So yeah, McDonalds wouldn’t be able to source as many staff, but they wouldn’t need to because they wouldn have as many customers.

    So what are the 1.5 million employees worldwide that MaDonalds hires through its franchises going to do now?

    Premier Icon jam bo
    Subscriber

    So what are the 1.5 million employees worldwide that MaDonalds hires through its franchises going to do now?

    put their arts degrees to good use?

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Subscriber

    It’s funny as well, the middle managers that think they’ll be immune, who do they think they are going to manage when all the jobs are automated…

    outofbreath
    Member

    The level of UBI could be set relatively low: enough cash to rent a room with communal facilities, pay for energy use, and enough peas and rice to be physically sustained. If this were the case, it’d still be a safety net rather than a way of life

    That’s *far* worse than what we currently do. At least with means tested benifits a single mother gets a flat and a washing machine and a bit of travel allowance.

    Free-market Libertarian types should love this, because it simplifies and/or removes a whole load of state apparatus currently needed for administering the complex benefits system.

    Yep, and they do.

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