UK state should pay for housing, food, transport and internet

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  • UK state should pay for housing, food, transport and internet
  • Premier Icon miketually
    Subscriber

    The level of UBI could be set relatively low: enough cash to rent a room with communal facilities, pay for energy use, and enough peas and rice to be physically sustained. If this were the case, it’d still be a safety net rather than a way of life

    That’s *far* worse than what we currently do. At least with means tested benifits a single mother gets a flat and a washing machine and a bit of travel allowance.[/quote]

    Okay, so set higher than that.

    outofbreath
    Member

    So what are the 1.5 million employees worldwide that MaDonalds hires through its franchises going to do now?

    Same as me with what would be effectively a free state pension for life – live a brilliant life.

    Premier Icon seosamh77
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    learn 400 trades! 😆

    Premier Icon miketually
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    In theory, I could work a day and a half a week and would earn about £500 per month. I could spend the other 5.5 days loafing about or learning to play the lute or whatever.

    deadlydarcy
    Member

    So what are the 1.5 million employees worldwide that MaDonalds hires through its franchises going to do now?

    An undergraduate degree in anthropology?

    Premier Icon dazh
    Subscriber

    I wonder if automation will force UBI rather than the other way round? Interesting.

    My understanding is that automation will make UBI inevitable rather than the other way round. The alternative is too horrific to contemplate. Even the rich elites who perpetuate the idea that something for nothing is morally wrong, recognise the fact that their luxuries are dependent on a compliant population who are not on the streets smashing everything up. Without UBI, I think that’s what would inevitably happen. When the people have nothing left to lose, they go after those who have everything.

    outofbreath
    Member

    My understanding is that automation will make UBI inevitable rather than the other way round.

    Which is exactly what Karl Marx thought. He figured that mass production would render so many people out of work that it would make sense to pay people not to work. 100 years on, people have mostly found ways to earn a living outside of manufacturing but who’s to say he wasn’t spot on – just a few decades out.

    Robots do the graft while we live rich and full lives.

    Premier Icon miketually
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    Robots do the graft while we live rich and full lives.

    Fully-automated luxury communism FTW!

    Premier Icon dazh
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    Robots do the graft while we live rich and full lives.

    Indeed. This central concept is IMO going to define politics for the next generation. The left are looking at this as an opportunity to liberate the people from the burden of unfulfilling work, whilst the right are looking at it as a means to make even more money and become even more powerful. As always I’m sure a messy compromise between these will be the end result, probably as some form of – probably inadequate – UBI.

    And if it hasn’t already been done, here’s a much better vision than I could ever think of.

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    It’s been possible to make robots for a while, or at least machines, for lots of jobs I reckon. But why spend millions on machines when you can just hire some poor sod who needs the minimum wage?

    This is what I am talking about with regards employer relations.

    trail_rat
    Member

    Fully-automated luxury communism

    And while I was slightly tongue in cheek in my first post I had a feeling before long this is where the thread would head.

    outofbreath
    Member

    Fully-automated luxury communism FTW!

    Will there be hookers?

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    Interesting thing about this topic is that it gets well discussed, in the media and on here every time it comes up; instead of the usual partisan scorn that other ideas get (utility nationalisation etc).

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    And if it hasn’t already been done, here’s a much better vision than I could ever think of.

    Great article for a change – a simple report on some pretty good ideas.

    Premier Icon dazh
    Subscriber

    But why spend millions on machines when you can just hire some poor sod who needs the minimum wage?

    Posted this before on other threads but it’s highly relevant to this point. It’s a good example of how a UBI could have positive economic effects by stimulating investment and the production of high value jobs.

    km79
    Member

    It’s not so much robots, it’s bots/AI/whatever which will be the biggest problem. Need legal advice? Financial services? Book a holiday? A ton of data needing analysed? A piece of artwork commissioned? Something designed? The day is coming when all of this will be cheaply and efficiently performed by non human things pretending to be human. It won’t just be low end jobs lost either so people sitting smugly comfortably on 40-50k jobs just now could well be in for a shock. The technology is here or thereabouts, what is keeping the brakes on it for now is customer perception. Once the hesitation goes then it will be a quick decline in employement opportunites for everyone.

    TheBrick
    Member

    In the same way that mass manufacturing didn’t cause a collapse in jobs but for new economy to emerge so will automation. Tools have been improving efficiency for 100s of years. It’s just more tools.

    Premier Icon seosamh77
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    And if it hasn’t already been done, here’s a much better vision than I could ever think of.

    good article that, ta.

    outofbreath
    Member

    In the same way that mass manufacturing didn’t cause a collapse in jobs but for new economy to emerge so will automation. Tools have been improving efficiency for 100s of years. It’s just more tools.

    That’s my gut feel. Every time in history we’ve been able to make/deliver/design stuff with less people, instead of living with the same stuff and doing less work we’ve found there was actually more ‘stuff’ we wanted. I suspect that trend will continue. …but who knows.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    instead of living with the same stuff and doing less work we’ve found there was actually more ‘stuff’ we wanted.

    Yes. In the past, rather than ‘we don’t need all these people to work any more’ we’ve said ‘now we have all these people doing nothing, they can do all this other stuff’.

    Premier Icon seosamh77
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    TheBrick – Member
    In the same way that mass manufacturing didn’t cause a collapse in jobs but for new economy to emerge so will automation. Tools have been improving efficiency for 100s of years. It’s just more tools.

    We basically agree, what we’re discussing here is what will these new tools enable us to do? how should we shape the future.

    andykirk
    Member

    Absolutely agree this is the way forward. A basic level of state services provided for everybody so you can survive. If you want more you get a job.

    I love the ‘I work therefore others should’ mentality. Crazy. There is no reason to work unless you need/ want the money or you enjoy it.

    Interesting some have posted the old ‘learn the value of money’ adage. The sooner we realise money has no value the better.

    TheBrick
    Member

    It’s just adding a level of indirection and administrative costs. As the money will just come from the first X thousands you earn as tax will need to be higher at low levels. You will still need to work in reality.

    Premier Icon Northwind
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    andykirk – Member

    I love the ‘I work therefore others should’ mentality. Crazy. There is no reason to work unless you need/ want the money or you enjoy it.

    Stockholm syndrome.

    What’s quite funny is that large employers are among the first to see the need for UBI- and it’s not out of love for the people, it’s because they realise our current social structure can’t work without either wages or UBI. And having broken the basic terms of the deal- that we work, and they pay us- they’re now looking at what to do next. Meanwhile the people most hostile to it are those who’ve never had to work, and a big chunk of those that work and don’t like it.

    mefty
    Member

    I could spend the other 5.5 days loafing about or learning to play the lute or whatever.

    My cousin is married to a professional lutenist, it is not all it is cracked up to be.

    Premier Icon Northwind
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    Yeah, I feel much better since I went luten free

    breatheeasy
    Member

    It would be interesting to see if the reality of “I’d just pick up a job whenever I needed some cash” would work out – I can see millions of people being at this level. Picking up casual work might get quite difficult if thats what everyone else is trying to do.

    Would everything else basically run as it is now. Plenty on here seem to be suggesting they’d make do. No people taking holidays? Goodbye airlines, airports etc. No new (company?) car. There’s garages and what little car making we have left. The list could go on significantly.

    All these peopple are now possibly looking for new jobs that don’t exist.

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    Picking up casual work might get quite difficult if thats what everyone else is trying to do.

    That’s why I think job sharing or part time working would become more popular. I think most people wouldn’t mind working half as much if it didn’t take up so much time.

    It would be interesting to see what employers would have to do.

    trail_rat
    Member

    Interestingly i was chatting with 2 gpod mates of mine tonight who lived through soviet era and the end of soviet era.

    Both enjoyed comunism and said they would gladly go back to comunism.

    They said at the emd which was falling apart times were tough but up till then life was good and they still though capitalism of the west was a wierd concept.

    Until i asked themwhy they were in africa trying to earn more for their family – isnt that just capitalism ?

    They agreed.

    mefty
    Member

    It would be interesting to see what employers would have to do.

    Go to countries without such a stupid system.

    andyrm
    Member

    But would people work the same way, and would employers work the same way? The relationship would certainly change.

    This is the bit that fascinates me. I reckon “wages” would be paid for productivity rather than attendance, polar opposite to what often happens now. That would reward those who want to work out of positive motivation rather than negative, and arguably be more efficient for the businesses too as the only people working would be the ones looking to maximise output rather than doing as little as possible to not be sacked.

    Would this be the pattern in all sectors, at all levels? Not sure. Still trying to figure that out……

    Premier Icon nickc
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    Go to countries without such a stupid system.

    how are Tesco going to sell me bread from a different country. they’ll still need stores here.

    wilburt
    Member

    Directly and indirectly I have been employed in the business of making other people unemployed for several years.

    Not in HR sense but just making business a bit more efficient. With fewer staff to pay they make more money which is the whole point of it of course.

    AI/Bots/Voice tech seems to be what everyone is talking about now. I cant see any other option than using some of that extra profit to provide an income for people who would otherwise be employed.

    A convoy can only travel at the speed of its slowest ship.

    mefty
    Member

    how are Tesco going to sell me bread from a different country. they’ll still need stores here.

    They will run their UK business for cash and either invest in countries with more growth potential or return it to the investors who will do the same.

    plyphon
    Member

    It would be interesting to see if the reality of “I’d just pick up a job whenever I needed some cash” would work out – I can see millions of people being at this level. Picking up casual work might get quite difficult if thats what everyone else is trying to do.

    Would everything else basically run as it is now. Plenty on here seem to be suggesting they’d make do. No people taking holidays? Goodbye airlines, airports etc. No new (company?) car. There’s garages and what little car making we have left. The list could go on significantly.

    All these peopple are now possibly looking for new jobs that don’t exist.

    And that means if you’re lucky enough to have a job, you don’t dare get fired because there are millions ready to replace you at a moments notice. That means you end up working every shift possible to avoid being let go for not being a “team player” and you stay late every day lest you be accused of “lack of culture fit”

    So the employer ends up with even more power over you.

    kerley
    Member

    Would everything else basically run as it is now. Plenty on here seem to be suggesting they’d make do

    I would carry on exactly as now. The UBI would not be there to enable me to give up work, it is there to protect everyone with at least the basics of what is needed. I, along with 95% of people like to have a bit more than the very basic amount to live on.
    I would get the £10,000 UBI just as everyone else but I would also be taxed an extra £10,000 (or maybe more) which is fine.

    plyphon
    Member

    kerley – Member
    I would get the £10,000 UBI just as everyone else but I would also be taxed an extra £10,000 (or maybe more) which is fine.

    But that means you’re not netting any more money?

    20,000 + 0 UBI = 20,000
    20,000 – 10,000 tax + 10,000 UBI = 20,000

    Unless, again – i’m missing something in this concept.

    disco_stu
    Member

    Unless, again – i’m missing something in this concept.

    You get to take back control over your life knowing that you have the freedom to sit in your pants and watch Jeremy Kyle for months at a time and still get the UBI.
    You can’t put a price on control can you? ( see also Brexit 😀 )

    outofbreath
    Member

    If it does this:

    it is there to protect everyone with at least the basics of what is needed

    Then it also does this:

    enable me to give up work,

    …and that’s the paradox of UBI:

    If you set it at a level where people can have a tolerable life, then significant numbers of them have no need to work.

    If you set it at a level where you can’t have a decent life, then you need means tested extras, in which case the system is no different to any other means tested benefit system.

    I would get the £10,000 UBI just as everyone else but I would also be taxed an extra £10,000 (or maybe more) which is fine.

    Some people currently retire on a state pension of £6344pa so it *is* possible to stop work on 10k for sure. I certainly would.

    I’m pretty sure only 50pc of people pay any tax at all. So under UBI you’d be paying 10k to offset your own UBI plus a minumum of an extra 10k to pay one other persons [1]. Which is all part of the viscious/virtuous circle of this policy. Loads of people give up work, which means the people in work are working for less and less takehome pay and therefore giving up. You can argue that’s good (I certainly would!) but it would happen.

    Incidently, I suspect that some oil rich nations are in a position to offer UBI to their citizens (or at least tax free living). If people don’t want to work that’s fine because they can just get foreign labour in. So it’s not inherantly imposible. (I think in Iraq 90pc of the countries GDP comes from Oil and 10pc comes from people working, so it’s pretty easy to do for some nations.)

    [1] You need to lower that a bit because some/many non-tax payers will already be getting some state money.

    plyphon
    Member

    You get to take back control over your life knowing that you have the freedom to sit in your pants and watch Jeremy Kyle for months at a time and still get the UBI.

    haha, sure – sounds great.

    But it’s not very “universal” if some people net +£10,000 and some net +£0

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