UK MTB Guides & Brexit: Working in France & The EU (by trailAddiction)

https://trailaddiction.com/uk-mtb-guides-right-to-work-in-france-europe-brexit-trailaddiction/

Well, it’s certainly been a while…

Anyone with more than a passing dream to one day work in France or anywhere else in Europe as an MTB Guide, might want to read the above, and act fast. You’ve got about 10 days left, actually.

I’ve honestly been meaning to write this article for months, but, well, you know how it is so apologies to anyone that reads this and thinks “bloody hell, you could have told me earlier!”.

The long-time forum members lurking on here may well remember the history of trailAddiction Ltd, and my personal crusade to fight for the rights of UK guides to work in France. Many of you disagreed with my approach at the time or may even have been personally let down as a result (if that’s you, I’m genuinely sorry, and please do contact me via email after reading the above article – let’s see how I can make it up to you!).

Looking back I have to say I now disagree with it myself too, but what’s done is done and what counts is where we are right now. This story and the damaging fallout from all that, was certainly discussed-to-death on these very forums.

At the time, I was too unwell to tell my side of the story (which in itself, is a whole other story!). So now, this is it, (well, sort of – the full novel will be available in Hardback in WHSmith, sometime around 2027).

Very much looking forward to be told I don’t know what on earth I’m on about, in the comments to this thread. That’s the whole point of a forum thesedays, is it not? 🙂

Thanks Ali, that’s really helpful.

I’ll share.

An excellent read with some really useful info and insight. I’ve shared it with a few folk who are qualified just in case they are interested.

really interesting, thanks very much for writing this. my credentials, I feel, are fairly slim but I would love to put a foot in the door in case I ever want to / have the chance to prise it open again. I worked for a season at FreerideSpain in 08 (which was fantastic and from which I certainly left a capable rider and experienced guide) and I have an out of date British Cycling coaching qualification (with some coaching experience to back that up). Would any of this ‘count’? Can you help please? I guess I would be going for an ‘equivalence’

Hi Tom.

To clarify what I’ve written in the article.

Your chance to “declare” and therefore “stake your claim” based on your rights as an EU citizen, expires at the end of this year. In this case (legally speaking, lets forget politics for now) you only really need to prove that you have professional experience and a legally valid UK qualification, which it appears you do still have. (Does a UK guide qualification expire? That’s news to me. Your First Aid qualification will, but that’s a separate issue).

Asking for “Equivalence” does not expire this year – although if you go that route, to work in France at least, you’ll need to show them quals and experience that they consider “as good” as their own. In other words, little chance of success (Unless you the go EOMTB route).

Your experience in Spain is actually very valuable in this case, assuming you were legal there too and can prove it (eg weren’t paid cash in hand). Although I’d have to double check that to be 100% sure – there may be a time limit on counting prior professional experience (over 10 years ago might, understandably be seen as no longer relevant!).

Will have full read later and sorry if you’ve answered in your post, but would quals done via Ireland, North or South, avoid the Brexit issue?
Never got round to completing my MBL, but they are validated by Cycling Ireland, even those obtained in the North.

Hi Northshoreniall

This is a good question indeed, thank you!

To give you a hand-on-heart answer to this question, I would need to go away and research the EU directive about this point a little further. However my gut feel is as follows:

This is all about your right as an EU citizen, which itself is based on your nationality – rather than the country in which you qualified.

Eg if you are talking about N Ireland then that is part of the UK and the points already discussed in the article, will apply and the Brexit deadline applies.

ROI is different in that the same principles apply as per the UK, but so long as you are an ROI citizen (eg still European) then nothing changes for you on 1 January 2021 with Brexit. Eg You can still demand/declare your right to work in France or elsewhere based on your existing Irish Quals and experience, and without having to ask them to consider if your qualification alone is “equivalent” to theirs or not. (After Brexit).

If you are a UK citizen, I’m afraid its a case of get in quick, or you’re screwed.

Cheers @freeride_addict , in all likelihood I’ll not get round to complete my quals but thought worth asking and maybe potential loophole for UK citizens.
Those born/from NI can get Southern passport (currently) so at least they may have a route to explore based on that then.
I’m from UK based but from Southern Ireland so not too worried for myself – timely reminder must get my NI born wife and sprogs passports sorted.

@northshoreniall yep, my bet would be that in time, your Irish roots are going to be worth their weight in Gold for both yourself and your family (if you have any aspiration to venture further than the end of your street, even if only for a nice holiday on the continent!). Good for you!

Woohoo, given my current weight I’m wealthy beyond my wildest dreams 😁

Ali, that’s long and awfully detailed, for the dimwitted amongst us would you mind summarising the upside of Brexit that was promised to us in 2016?

@beargrease You’re absolutely right. Sorry for that!

Allow me to give you the executive Brexit summary:

We’re screwed 🙂

Oh, Merry Christmas Everyone!

So as somebody who has a MBL certificate, albeit not used in anger for several years, and would like to keep the option open of working in France, what is the better option to apply for?

Thanks so much for the advice. I got confused for a minute thinking getting this recognition would magically some how secure me the rights we will be losing as we crash out. The other thing is my qualification is a coaching one not a guiding one, and was earnt in a car park in Croydon, although the BC course instruction is great. I’m pretty sure it does expire

My concern (as a tourist rider in Les Arcs area) is that I am called out as a guide, even though I am not. Myself and my friends have been coming to the area for a decade and have built up trail knowledge all the way from Seez to Moutiers – in recent years, I’ve felt a bit targeted – either from my van number plate being recorded (because it has a trailer!) or other guides threatening to report me or one of the other group) as a guide. Holiday ruining stuff if it went wrong.

There seems to be some pent up hate for UK riders in the Les Arcs area (probably not unrelated to issues with local UK guiding companies of the past) so the Brexit situation is just going to make it worse, whether you have a loophole to operate or not.

@mc with an MBL plus some genuine professional experience (I think that’s what you are saying) I would suggest its worth getting an application in quick eg before Brexit. Even if you just fill in your name and send a scan of your MBL cert, its the starting point that counts. The two options for that are in the article. Easy way is DIY via the French online portal – chance of success, slim. Easy but more costly way is to contact track and flow who will talk you through it avoid the loopholes that the French administration might use to knock you back out-of-hand.

@tom84 the actions you can take as discussed in this article do indeed secure your rights that you are about to lose forever (those being your right to have your professional UK qualification recognised in Europe). They will be “grandfathered” for eternity if you get in there pre-Brexit.

Much like, I suppose, if you were a British Citizen already resident in an EU country based on your status as British and European Citizen, you don’t lose those rights (to remain there as a resident) on 1st January 2021….but nonetheless, you won’t be a European Citizen any more from that date onwards.

@rapiddescent its sad to hear these stories. As someone who believes in an open and fair market to naturally control the way of things (rather than heavy regulations and tough barriers to entry) I don’t agree with this kind of attitude at all.

On the other hand I understand and respect the alternative perspective, not least do I simply accept it as being the way of things are / culture over here. I’ve covered that in the article.

I can’t tell you if Brexit will make that situation worse or not. My gut feel is, not. (If half of the British tourists and/or seasonal workers suddenly disappear from the Alps as a result, they might even be missed!).

Anyway, perhaps word of advice to help you in future. I could well be wrong… but the general sense of opposition you might be feeling is not specifically about guiding. Its more generally about “outsiders” coming in on holiday or for work, somehow avoiding the rules and taxes that locals have to adhere to and pay, and then buggering off again having not really made any lasting contribution to the area.
Eg – How many dig-days have you done here in the past 10 years, for all those shuttled rides you’ve done with your mates on these trails? Did you bring your own van and trailer from the UK or did you hire a local van and local driver who is paying his taxes into the local economy?). Thats not a personal attack – Im siting typical examples, none of which I personally agree with but I do understand the principle – having been on the receiving end in the past!

Anyway, apart from the fact that no-one enjoys being frowned at when you are just minding your own business and not doing anything wrong – the law here is very clear. If you are not WORKING then you are not a Guide and you can do what you like. Working means getting paid, either in cash, or in kind. If your mates, for example, pay your fuel, food and accommodation in return for you doing all the guiding for them, that’s classed as work and you need a Carte Pro. Same thing if you are selling accommodation but claiming to be guiding “for free”.

That’s not to say that if “someone” doesn’t like it, they won’t try and make your life difficult anyway and try and pick you up on a technicality. And on that point, you are dead right about Brexit. There will be a lot more admin just to legally bring a van and trailer into France from the UK, and to drive it, and to have the correct insurance, etc etc, as of January.

I’d like to respond to your use of the word “loophole” though – my personal perspective is that the opposite is true. According to law, its loopholes and regulatory tricks that in the past have been used to (try to) prevent legitimate, highly experienced and qualified guides from working in France.

After about 25 years here I am also finally getting my head around the surprisingly large cultural differences between the UK and France that are not immediately obvious. I reckon that’s what counts most of all in the real world.

I’d like to think we’re good tourists in France – we rent from Hana (Alpine Essence) in Vallandry, we eat out at local restaurants that are open in the summer in Peisey, Montchavin, B Ste-M and in Vallandry, we buy stuff in the local shops. We buy lift tickets and rarely use the van for uplift – instead relying on the odd Cool Bus + trailer. The only time we had to use my van was when they wouldn’t let us on the train from Moutieres to Bourg Saint-Maurice. Even though I am a trailbuilder here in Scotland, I’d never touch the trails on whilst holiday – partly because I’d be well pissed off if tourists starting cocking around with my trails here.

It’s interesting because I don’t experience the same “local issues” in other parts of the Alps that I’ve visited. Its only this region of France. I’ve been twice to the Graussbinden area of Switzerland and the culture is night and day different – they are so welcoming and pro VTT. Same for Germany (Bavaria). Hoping to try out Austria as soon as it makes sense to travel.

@rapiddescent. well, there you go. Clearly adding a lot of value to the area but I would agree that particularly in the Tarentaise part of France (Greater Les Arcs, you might call it) the atmosphere can sometimes be less welcoming – I don’t think this is limited to mountain bikers only though! And its not unique to this part of the world either – eg when is the last time you spend a week shuttling the most popular walking trails in the Lake District (UK) in peak season, and didn’t get either smacked with a walking stick, pronged with a pitch fork, or even arrested and fined?

I agree that the other areas you mention are on the face of it a lot more welcoming. Particularly Graubunden in Swizterland – which is one of the many factors I ran Enduro2 there (Davos) for three years as a second location to Les Arcs.

This is only a guess but I suspect the bottom line is that the Tarentaise simply don’t need the money in MTB, or at least its not worth them getting out of bed for it relative to their winter earnings. Plus as far as they see it, it’s less money for more hassle. (The Tarentaise hosts several of the largest – buy turnover – resorts in the world. The biggest being La Plagne, which is of course part of Paradiski (Les Arcs – La Plagne).

But then again, in spite of all of this, arguably the best lift-accessed riding in the whole world is right here. That ‘aint going to change in a hurry. (It took our Gallic -at that time more like Roman – ancestors several thousand years to build this trail network, first time around!). So if you want to ride it, the odd scowl or waggling finger from a local as you spray gravel into his face and nearly mow down his infant child whilst out for a peaceful walk in the forest, is not a massive price to pay in the grand scheme of things. 🙂

Does any non mtb (kayaking/climbing/mountaineering) coaching/guiding experience count towards the requirements?

@timbud good question. The answer is yes, and no.
If you are going for the “Declaration” route then the answer is no. Only your MTB experience would count to establish yourself as an MTB guide in UK that is currently working professionally as such.
However, as described in the article – theoretically speaking, you don’t need any extra experience at all – only a valid qualification that would allow you to work in the UK. Extra experience in this respect only adds weight to your declaration.

On the other hand, if you are going for the “Request for Equivalence” route, then they should also take any relevant experience into account. In this case, any general outdoor guide experience would clearly be a useful base for being a MTB guide (group management, safety and rescue experience, etc etc). There are several examples I am aware of where they have given favourable consideration to Ski and Snowboard instructors looking to “bolt-on” a license as an MTB guide.

If it’s any help to anyone wondering whether to try declaration or equivalence, if you go for the equivalence route then currently your qualification and experience will be considered, rejected as not equivalent to the French qualification, appealed on your behalf, then you’ll be offered to sit a 1 or 2 day test (free of charge) which if you pass you will be granted the French qualification. As neither the brexit deal nor the UK/Swiss deal struck at the start of December include recognition of qualifications, then having the French qualifications means that say you want to work at later date in Switzerland or Aosta, then having your qualification recognised is a formality, it’s just the actual right to work in these countries you need to worry about the paperwork for. I realise in theory having your UK qualifiaction recognised in another EU country should be as simple as Ali has explain above, but having an EU qualification already will make it much simpler, and currently no one really knows how it’s going to work in Switzerland as outdoor professionals across several sports are currently trying to get our access to Switzerland sorted and it’s not going as easily as it did 12 months ago.

Also, cheers for the thread and detailed explanation Ali!

@Grump. Thanks a lot for the insight and adding those important comments ref Switzlerland.
Anyone else reading this – if you are already lost / confused…..join the club! That’s the whole point, if any authority wants to make it hard for you and tie you up in confusing admin to stop you from reaching your goal – be sure that they can and they will. This is exactly why I have recommended using Track & Flow in my article because they’ve seen it all before and they won’t stand for any of this b*llshit (on your behalf).

Regarding you story about the French equivalence test. Actually they are highly likely to do exactly this, wether you apply for “equivalence” or even if you apply directly for “Declaration”. Eg if you “declare” before you know it they will trick you to voluntarily going on to the equivalence route instead. (Unless you have someone very experienced handling the application for you).

This is exactly what they did to me. But I would rather help others behind me avoid this trap if I can (rather than metaphorically slam the door behind me on my way in).

And to close the loop – the test you will be asked to perform in this circumstance is not only pretty hard to pass, but it will be in French. If you go the EOMTB route the final test at the end of the process is very similar to this equivalence test (hint – its actually the SAME test approved by the same people pulling the strings behind the scenes, just dressed up as something independent). But, at least this test is done in English and is judged by a pan-european pannel of assessors – all in all I suspect a better or more fair/realistic option.

…of of course, you don’t decide to play along and instead you make a “Declaration” rather than an “Equivalence Request” before the 31st December and firmly stick to your guns, until you (hopefully) get your Carte Pro”.

(nudge)

Hi Ali, the link in your opening post doesn’t seem to be working. Can you take a look. Thanks!

Ah Yes! Thanks for that @bikenski

The correct link is now:
https://trailaddiction.com/uk-mtb-guides-right-to-work-in-france-europe-2021/

I had to delete the word “Brexit” from the original web-link title. Having posted it on Facebook, they accused me of being a political manipulator of elections and social policies, and auto-blocked my business ad account. Whilst I am flattered to be given such an influential title (!), you have to wonder who is policing their policies sometimes, when they block this, but allow some of the extreme right wing agenda, anti-vax, 5G-micro-chipping, trump-wall-building stuff to proliferate freely.

Or maybe it was just those powerful by anonymous French beurocrats pulling some more strings behind the scenes again. 🙂

UPDATE – latest communique from Track and flow who have given a good detail on the Brexit deal and how that impacts the right to work in Europe

JANVIER 2021 | Issue No. 4

THE COMMUNIQUÉ

The Official TRACK AND FLOW Newsletter

6th, January 2021
-Youtube- Webinar
“Brexit deal”

BREXIT DEAL

by Team Track and Flow

In this Webinar Jean-Yves went over the important points made in the deal. Starting with the effect on Goods, to going over the aspect that interests us the most, “services” :
The EU and the UK are major partners when it comes to trade in services and investment.

While the UK was an EU Member State, participating in the EU Single Market and benefitting from the free movement of persons and services, businesses could supply services freely across the EU. The UK benefitted from the EU’s Single Market ecosystem based on common rules, a single supervisory framework, and a common jurisdictional system.

Since the 1st of January 2021, the UK no longer benefits from the principles of free movement of persons, free provision of services and freedom of establishment.

As a result, UK service suppliers have lost their automatic right to offer services across the EU. They may need to establish themselves in the EU to continue operating.

In any event, they must comply with the – often varying – host-country rules of each Member State, as they no longer benefit from the “country-of-origin” approach or “passporting” concept, according to which authorisations issued by one Member State under EU rules enable access throughout the entire EU Single Market.

As in all its free trade agreements, the EU fully maintains the right to regulate its own markets.

The actual level of market access depends on the way the service is supplied:

whether it is supplied on a cross-border basis from the home country of the supplier, e.g. over the internet (mode 1);
supplied to the consumer in the country of the supplier, for example a tourist travelling abroad and purchasing services (mode 2);
supplied via a locally-established enterprise owned by the foreign service supplier (mode 3);
or through the temporary presence in the territory of another country by a service supplier who is a natural person (mode 4). This is the most common situation for Outdoor Professionals.
How easy will it be for professionals to travel between the EU and the UK under the Trade and Cooperation Agreement?

The UK has chosen to no longer allow the free movement of EU citizens to the UK. It also refused to include a chapter on mobility in the Agreement. These choices inevitably mean that business travel between the EU and the UK is no longer as easy as it was.

Nonetheless, regarding the temporary movement of natural persons for business purposes (often refered to as “mode 4”), the EU and the UK have agreed on a broad range of reciprocal commitments facilitating :

1. the ability of companies located in a Party to transfer certain employees, as intra-corporate transferees, to work in an associated company located in the other Party;
2. the movement of “contractual service suppliers”;
3. the movement of “independent professionals” to supply services under certain conditions; this concerns most Outdoor operations;
4. Business visitors not providing services who are also be allowed short-term entry in order to carry out certain activities.

There are 2 key types of UK Outdoor professionals who may enter the EU to perform their activity : “Contractual service suppliers” and “independent professionals”.

The Deal determines the conditions of their visit (not exceeding 12 months) and sets very high standards in terms of training and professionalism :

For contractual service suppliers : being employed for 1 year + have 3 years professional experience + a university degree + the required national qualification.

For independent professionals : have 6 years professional experience + a university degree + the required national qualification.

For employees, 3 years professional experience is 3 X 200 days (duration inspired from the Delegated Act) e.g. 600 days or 6 Outdoor seasons; for independent pros, the rule is twice this e.g. 12 Outdoor seasons.

Does the Agreement provide for the recognition of professional qualifications?

As a member of the EU and the EU Single Market, UK nationals and EU citizens holding a qualification from the United Kingdom previously benefitted from a simplified – in some cases automatic – recognition regime in other EU countries, which allowed professionals such as doctors, nurses, dental practitioners, pharmacists, veterinary surgeons, lawyers, architects or engineers to supply services across the European Union, including in the United Kingdom.

As of 1 January, as a general rule, UK nationals, irrespective of where they acquired their qualifications, and EU citizens with qualifications acquired in the United Kingdom will need to have their qualifications recognised in the relevant Member State on the basis of each country’s existing individual rules applicable to the qualifications of third-country nationals as of the end of the transition period.

The Trade and Cooperation Agreement nevertheless foresees a mechanism whereby the EU and the UK may later agree, on a case-by-case basis and for specific professions, on additional arrangements for the mutual recognition of certain professional qualifications.

In the coming years, professional bodies may develop and provide the Partnership Council sets of recommendation; in turn, the PC may adopt corresponding arrangements, but as indicated, “such arrangements shall not lead to automatic recognition of qualifications.

This is the consequence of the fact that mobility has been cancelled between the UK and the EU : automatic mutual recognition was the counter aspect of automatic mobility.

Conclusion to the recognition of qualifications,

There is no recognition system in place at EU/UK level and only individual member States law shall apply.

Negotiations MAY be carried out in the coming years and MAY lead to agreements that are in any case limited to a lower level of what existed.

Hi Ali, it’s not mentioned in this advice note from Track and Flow (or any other advice note I’ve read) but do you know of any advice for UK citizens resident in the EU who wish to guide outside of their EU country of residence? Or for an example, if you wanted to guide in Switzerland or Italy. It seems the rules are different depending on whether you are based in the UK or the EU….

In the UK/CH services agreement it applies to:

“For the purpose of this Annex, “service supplier of the United Kingdom” means:

(a) a national of the United Kingdom who is established in the territory of

the United Kingdom and seeks to provide a service in the territory of

Switzerland; and

(b) an employee, irrespective of his or her nationality, who is integrated into

the regular labour market of the United Kingdom and is posted for the

provision of a service in the territory of Switzerland by his or her

employer established in the United Kingdom”

So basically EU based UK national guides fall between this agreement and the EU/CH agreement which is for EU citizens only, so in theory we can’t guide there. This is already affecting UK citizen but EU resident mountain guides who have tried to get their work permits sorted for guiding in Switzerland.

Similarly in the EU/UK trade agreement the UK parties are described as:

“a legal person constituted or organised under the law of the United Kingdom
and engaged in substantive business operations in the territory of the United
Kingdom;”

Which would suggest the same situation as with Switzerland, however when you get deep into the annexes there are lists of exceptions to the agreement (from ANNEX SERVIN-3: BUSINESS VISITORS FOR ESTABLISHMENT PURPOSES, INTRA-CORPORATE TRANSFEREES AND SHORT-TERM BUSINESS VISITORS and same text in ANNEX SERVIN-4: CONTRACTUAL SERVICE SUPPLIERS AND INDEPENDENT PROFESSIONALS)

“For greater certainty, for the European Union, the obligation to grant national treatment
does not entail the requirement to extend to natural or legal persons of the United Kingdom the
treatment granted in a Member State, in application of the Treaty on the Functioning of the
European Union, or of any measure adopted pursuant to that Treaty, including their implementation
in the Member States, to:
(i) natural persons or residents of another Member State; or
(ii) legal persons constituted or organised under the law of another Member State or of
the European Union and having their registered office, central administration or
principal place of business in the European Union.”

So it could be the agreement covers trying to guide in Italy, or maybe it’s another spot where we fall between the cracks. All fun and games eh!