UK Government Thread

you don’t have to target Farage

It’s got bugger all to do with Farage anyway. Dealing with the issue of political donations was in Labour’s election manifesto before Farage even announced that he would be standing in the general election, and long before Elon Musk ever stuck his oar in.

Labour would simply be implementing a manifesto commitment. To claim that it is to target Farage would be a lie. Obviously Farage might choose to lie, after all he lies about most things, but there is no need to agree with him.

Labour were talking about a £5k donation cap 10 years ago when Ed Miliband was leader.

Starmer clearly isn’t going to last unless he actually starts to make some half decent decisions.

He and Reeves don’t have a clue what it takes to fix the country. The NI hike hasn’t even hit yet and the economy is a mess.  They talk of taking tough decisions but none of these decisions land on the correct groups of people.  Tough decisions usually for the vulnerable groups of society is not good for voters is it?

What with him courting BlackRock and Saudi money – which is a totally ridiculous direction to go in – we will see no improvement in voter’s material conditions.

UK economy heading for ‘worst of all worlds’, CBI warns – as businesses expect fall in activity.

Sky.

None of this was a surprise to a many of us – an inexperienced politician that is the biggest liar in politics making shoddy move upon move.

(I see this thread has turned into a debate about the how bad the Tories are again. Seems to always happen when Labour are making an absolute state of things.)

I will tell you who is a gift to Tories and Reform; Starmer and Reeves.

Keep this thread going though as the Starmer thread will probably be extinct next year.

And yet binners I distinctly remember the centrists on here claiming that Labour could not implement radical policies without first winning the general election, which is why they allegedly had to tone down any radical stuff.

Centrists never learn. They will just keep shifting the goal posts – and it will almost certainly be the left’s fault whatever the occasion.

Centrists aren’t interested in radical – they haven’t a clue that fixing material conditions and offering solutions for people can’t better than free clothes and lying.

Lying is good when it’s your team.

Radical was never on the cards -hoodwinked into voting for right-wing caretakers was.

The Labour brand as a progressive party has been trashed by a twit in a suit out of his depth that brainlessly thought he was going to be popular by making terrible choices.

repeat the facts, loudly

Have you missed the last decade?

I see this thread has turned into a debate about the how bad the Tories are again.

It’s almost as if our current situation might have something to do with them.

It’s almost as if our current situation might have something to do with them.

Then let’s have some consistency because it wasn’t welcomed in the Tory thread for the same reasons.

Easy though to solve.

We can fix the Reform, Farage and Musk situation but insisting Labour to do a better job.

It’s only an issue for a shit party.

Starmer clearly isn’t going to last unless his actually starts to make some half decent decisions.

I think Starmer will last until the first proper crises that comes along and he is expected to deal with. That is when his Ineptitude as PM will become obvious.

In keeping with his extraordinary good luck Starmer hasn’t had a proper crisis to deal with since becoming PM, apart from the far-right riots which required very little input from him.

Obviously Farage might choose to lie

His lies managed to convince 1 in 6 of the UK voters that exercised their right in July.

They also convinced 52% of those who voted in the 2016 referendum.

He’s a very good liar, it would seem.

I think Starmer will last until the first proper crises that comes along and he is expected to deal with. That is when his Ineptitude as PM will become obvious

Just a punt but the economic conditions will snowball into recession or downturn that destroys any popularity he’s got left. I think that will take him and Reeves with a bit of luck.

No one said running this country was going to be easy. His popularity is a disaster zone and the public will not give him the room that the Tories had for failure.

Squandered everything on a muddled, dated and disastrous economic plan.

Then claimed their target is growth.

Get him out before mid-term please and get some real policies in. Actually life changing stuff that would make a difference.

Or we’re ****.

His lies managed to ……

You do realise that it is extraordinarily easy to prove that Labour had a commitment to bring in a cap on political donations long before Nigel Farage had even announced that he would be re-entering politics six months ago, don’t you?

Btw I’m lovin the apparent suggestion that 52% of voters voted the way he told them to vote. No wonder some people appear to be terrified of him!

Insult him, call him all sorts of names, such as man-frog, but ffs don’t let a Labour government upset him.

Musk is also donating a 100 million or so to the Afd in Germany, I expect he is doing mush the same with major economies throughout the world, IMO Musk and the other billionaire oligarchs are now a bigger threat to western democracy, and our life, happiness and health than nation states, it is a major battle that if not fought will see massive reductions in living standards for a generation or two.

Absolutely this – Russia and China must be loving how passively “the West” is letting this play out. It is absolutely the reason that donations need to be capped, and those arguing against it need to be exposed.

Have you missed the last decade?

I’ve missed the bit where facts got as much publicity and attention as all the lies and misinformation

You do realise that it is extraordinarily easy to prove that Labour had a commitment to bring in a cap on political donations long before Nigel Farage had even announced that he would be re-entering politics six months ago, don’t you?

You do realise that doesn’t matter, don’t you? Most folks don’t read past a headline, and the headline will read “Farage to receive £100 mil from Musk, Govt. try to block it” Labour could explain all it likes that it has a commitment going back decades, it wouldn’t shift the dial one bit for the sorts of people who think this will the Govt. putting it’s finger on the scale. It’s the same as the WASPI campaign, there’s no commitment to pay the compensation if Labour won in their manifesto, but that still doesn’t stop an issue that was the fault of the Tory LibDem coalition becoming the current Govts. problem.

Just a punt but the economic conditions will snowball into recession or downturn that destroys any popularity he’s got left.

This. The crisis that will finish him off can be described in one word – Stagflation. He might be able to deflect it by getting rid of Reeves, which he will almost certainly do, but losing the chancellor he as aligned himself with so closely will cause a political crisis that he will struggle to survive. You can bet Streeting and Reeves will be doing the rounds of the tea rooms in the new year being very nice to their colleagues.

Renters Bill, workers rights, offshore wind planning, 40% funding uplift to courts, pay disputes settled, NHS funding uplift, train nationalisation, Rwanda scrapped, new crime and policing bill , knife crime review, prison review and on and on , but yeah, macro economics from Brexit to COVID all the way to Gas prices will do for them.

It could be the economy that does for Starmer but it could be that because he has already invoked his carefully worded lawyerly ways of making himself someone who is simply very hard to trust.  So he can be as earnest and well-meaning in all sorts of directions but if the initial response becomes a roll of the eyes and “yeah right” he’ll struggle to retain votes.  And therein lies his problem – a stonking Parliamentary majority rests on a large number of relatively slim majorities at the constituency level.

Most folks don’t read past a headline, and the headline will read “Farage to receive £100 mil from Musk, Govt. try to block it” Labour could explain all it likes that it has a commitment going back decades, it wouldn’t shift the dial one bit for the sorts of people who think this will the Govt. putting it’s finger on the scale.

Wow, do actually believe that nonsense……. that Labour can’t easily challenge obvious shite that comes out of Farage’s mouth? No wonder the centrists appear to be terrified of him!

Yes of course most folk read past the headlines, what a daft comment to make. Still, I guess it falls into the usual centrist mindset that everyone apart from them are stupid.

So what’s your explanation for stupid voters giving Keir Starmer one of the biggest parliamentary majorities in UK history? I would be genuinely interested.

In keeping with his extraordinary good luck Starmer hasn’t had a proper crisis to deal with since becoming PM,

He’s been PM for less than six months. You think we usually have a proper crisis more than once every six months on average? Or are you just being silly?

Calling people who don’t agree with you ‘centrists’ really doesn’t help. I actually find it quite offensive.

I can’t speak for anyone else, but for me it just makes you sound an intollerent extremist.

Think about what those words actually mean.

In PR I’d vote lib dem all day long.

I ‘loaned’ my vote to Labour this time around.

I’m somewhat disappointed with Starmers Labour, but I’d rather that than another conservative government or hell forbid, reform or a Tory/reform coalition.

The mere fact that anyone votes tactically suggest that the election system needs serious change.

You think we usually have a proper crisis more than once every six months on average? Or are you just being silly?

I think under the last however many years under the Conservatives, we kind of got used to having a crisis for breakfast and a new and more exquisite crisis by lunch time, and buckle up for this evenings crisis!

That’s not ordinary though, it’s extraordinary.

I think one of today’s problems is people don’t even read headlines anymore, their entire news feed is algorithm fed Facebook, Xitter and TikTok.

Calling people who don’t agree with you ‘centrists’ really doesn’t help. I actually find it quite offensive.

Agreed. We’re regularly told on here it’s disrespectful to slag off right voting Reform supporters but it would appear moderate centerists are fair game.

As for today’s figures, so the economy flatlined for the 3 months after the election, before the Labour budget, I think thats firmly the fault of the Torys.

Starmer hasn’t had a crisis? Apart from the murder of several children being exploited by far right forces and riots across England?

Calling people who don’t agree with you ‘centrists’ really doesn’t help. I actually find it quite offensive.

lol!

There’s a lack of confidence in the Labour cabinet, no point dancing around the issues (brexit, immigration, economy)

They need to renegotiate access to the EEA, they need to call out the right wing with blunt language around immigration, they will struggle with the economy as the UK is notorious for the lack of private investment in the UK (hence Blair/Brown selling their souls to the Public private partnership)

If you want honesty, the private sector in the UK will not invest in manufacturing, technology, infrastructure its simply not what they do. They want to build assets to sell for a profit or rent out at a profit.

The UK has become a combination of SMEs and Public sector. The type of business that provides high wages and a stable job simply isn’t coming.

At some point people will realise that rich people don’t want to invest to make poor people better off. Add in the exit strategy mindset of UK entrepreneurs it’s just a low investment vicious circle.

A very well off acquaintance of mine is disgusted that he must pay self employed trades £250 a day and mourns the disappearance of all the Polish trades. He is hoping for a big recession so the trades get cheaper. This is what we are dealing with.

The markets are well and truly in control of the UK economy regardless of who is in power.

No one in the UK wanted to invest in the Post Office so someone else from Eastern Europe buys it.

The only positive that Labour has done is adjust Farmers IHT shame they didn’t go all the way and tax them like the rest of us.

Take my SME it has two family members working in it, the most cost effective way of maximising the value is to sell to a large integrated and pay 10% entrepreneurs allowance tax. Nothing promotes long term investment

Calling people who don’t agree with you ‘centrists’ really doesn’t help. I actually find it quite offensive.

Well you right-wingers need to make your minds up! I use the term centrist because I thought that’s what you liked to call yourselves, I am trying to be polite!

You obviously don’t like to be called right-wingers, understandably, so what do you want to call yourselves now?

My preferred term would be Tory-Lite but you would presumably find that highly offensive, you seem pretty sensitive souls. So what is it……..do you want to go back to describing yourselves as “moderates”, I thought that had fallen out of fashion?

Obviously left-wingers don’t mind being called left-wing or lefties as we haven’t got anything to be ashamed of, but how do you want to distinguish yourselves from left-wingers who you like to denigrate?

Tell me and I’ll use whatever term you prefer.

You obviously don’t like to be called right-wingers, understandably, so what do you want to call yourselves now?

I can’t speak for ‘they’, whoever ‘they’ are,  But I’m a liberal socialist pretty much by definition. Being liberal shouldn’t be confused with being ‘soft’ though, something a lot of people seem to forget.

Yeah well “liberal socialist” isn’t widely recognised terminology for people who share a similar political position to Keir Starmer. When was the last time you heard Starmer or any of his Cabinet described as being  “liberal socialist”?

And we are talking about collective terms such as left-wingers or lefties, not terms for individuals. So how do you think we should collectively call those who can’t be called left-wing and claim not to be as right-wing as the Tories, eg Starmer supporters, if you find centrist offensive?

It is a perfectly reasonable question and I have no idea why you appear to be so touchy. Give me a term which you would like the media to use when describing the political stance of the present Cabinet.

Yeah well “liberal socialist” isn’t widely recognised terminology for people who share a similar political position to Keir Starmer.

I didn’t say it was?

And we are talking about collective terms such as left-wingers or lefties, not terms for individuals. So how do you think we should collectively call those who can’t be called left-wing and claim not to be as right-wing as the Tories, eg Starmer supporters, if you find centrist offensive?

That’s your square to try to circle… don’t be trying to file me into your neat little pigeon holes.

Still, I guess it falls into the usual centrist mindset that everyone apart from them are stupid.

I said nothing about anyone’s intelligence. That’s entirely on you.

Give me a term which you would like the media to use when describing the political stance of the present Cabinet.

Ineffectual?

I didn’t say it was?

No you said that you found the term centrist “quite offensive”, which when you think about it is frankly ridiculous, assuming that you actually understand what it means.

I said that I consider the term to be polite and inoffensive but that nevertheless if you suggested another collective noun I would be happy to consider using it..

You came up with “liberal socialist” which is hardly a recognised term for the political stance being followed by the Starmer and his cabinet. It is obvious that I meant something like “moderate” or “middle-of-the-road”.

I think I’ll stick with centrist. Plenty of people use the term including the Guardian.

I said nothing about anyone’s intelligence. That’s entirely on you.

Absolutely I said it. My claim is that the predominantly centrist attitude on stw typically sees the average voter as stupid and themselves as intellectually superior. Are you actually disputing that?

And we are talking about collective terms such as left-wingers or lefties, not terms for individuals. So how do you think we should collectively call those who can’t be called left-wing and claim not to be as right-wing as the Tories, eg Starmer supporters, if you find centrist offensive?

Why do you need a collective term? People are individuals. Most will agree with some policies and disagree with others. It’s better to talk about the policies imo

Politics has become very polarised. For some it’s almost like football where your team is right and everyone else is wrong about everything.

My claim is that the predominantly centrist attitude on stw typically sees the average voter as stupid and themselves as intellectually superior

I’m a centrist (boo, hiss) and think the average voter is stupid, but I also think I’m stupid too. I don’t even feel intellectually superior to my cats, who outsmart me on a daily basis. Where do I fit in then?

Why do you need a collective term? People are individuals.

The word “centrist” is not offensive. The way it is used by some to punch down on people who aren’t Left enough is offensive.

Context is everything.

Astonishing argument!

Ernie has told me in the past I am offensive for calling Starmer and his supporters right wing – which of course they are 🙂 ( I know Ernie was just trying not to offend folk)

Technocrats?  I did think Starmer would at least be a good technocrat but I have been very disappointed.  the main issue for me is the folk he has surrounded himself with – corrupt and right wing and liars

So how would you like to be described?

So how would you like to be described?

I lean towards Social Democrat but would rather just be described as someone who gives a shit about more than just themselves.

Why do you need a collective term? People are individuals.

Another right wing meme “There’s No Such Thing as Society”

I lean towards Social Democrat but would rather just be described as someone who gives a shit about more than just themselves.

Well thats great, but a lot of contibuters to this and other political threads, the ones who seemingly are offended by being called centrists, don’t represent what they claim to be when actually discussing the policies they would or wouldn’t support (and I am not directing this at you personally I can’t realy recall what you are for or against). Personally I don’t think they should be called centrists either, traditional or one nation tories would be more accurate given the policies they support and opose.

My claim is that the predominantly centrist attitude on stw typically sees the average voter as stupid and themselves as intellectually superior.

I don’t think that’s a “truth” at all, I don’t think any of the regular posters on here would describe themselves as either centrist or intellectually superior to anyone, I think there’s probably as broad a political spectrum on here as there is in any group of middle aged men. It might be that that’s your perception of the folks on here, but that’s as clouded by your own values as much as all our regurgitated thoughts on these threads are.  As for the population in general, I think that voters sometimes make daft decisions but that’s far from labelling anyone as stupid, and while papers like the Sun and Mail can only exist (and succeed) in an environment where folks are willing to be fed things they instinctively want to think are true, or don’t care to have their minds changed, or are lacking critical thinking skills [non-pejoratively speaking], it doesn’t follow that I think that I’m any more immune from it, It just means I’m aware of it.

Why do you need a collective term? People are individuals.

#notallcentrists

#ExtremeRightWingLabourSocialistLite

predominantly centrist attitude on stw typically sees the average voter as stupid

I don’t think it’s a particularly centrist attitude to see the average voter as stupid.

I don’t think it’s a particularly centrist attitude to see the average voter as stupid.

In the last ten years, it has been the mistake of centrists (or moderates if you prefer the term) to vastly overestimate the intelligence of the electorate.

<Shrugs>

Agree. They are easily fooled so use that to your advantage as it goes both ways.

Personally I don’t think they should be called centrists either, traditional or one nation tories would be more accurate given the policies they support and opose.

Well as I said earlier my preferred description would be Tory-Lite although I accept that they would find that offensive as they like to pretend that they are not right-wing and totally different to the Tories.

I cannot recall ever meeting a left-winger who was in any way embarrassed or ashamed of being called left-wing but not that many people are proud of being right-wing,

When you think about it for every left-winger there has to be a right-winger otherwise the term left-wing is meaningless, it is a point of reference and nothing more. So where are all these right-wingers which must be definition exist?

The answer is that they hide behind the term “centrist” which I thought they found comforting. It turns out that some are apparently so embarrassed by their own convictions that they are even uncomfortable about that! 🙂

Anyway Keir Starmer and his supporters are clearly right-wing but it makes no odds to me whether they are called right-wingers or centrists.

On the question of why the need for a collective noun the answer is because it is the bog standard practice when discussing politics, not just on stw. On stw, which is not in any way reflective of wider voter attitudes, there are basically two political camps, on the political threads at least. The pro-Starmer/right-wing Labour camp which appears to be by far the largest, and the other camp which is undoubtedly smaller although  disproportionately vocal and which argues from a more left-wing perspective. Any political disagreement is generally between these two opposing perspectives and anyone attempting to argue from a Tory perspective is generally dismissed as a troll.