U.S. Presidential Election 2020

But if you think a fairly localised mini riot like the Capitol is “America succumb[ing] to domestic terrorism and mob rule”, I think you’re over estimating what happened. They were back in and debating and voting within 6 hours or something. Catastrophising (sp?) that event in the language you used is giving them more credit than they deserve.

I think the point is that somewhere something broke down very very close to the centre of power in America
There was a mock gallows outside the building and Pence was to be lynched for betraying trump, he was one doorway and 4 secret service agents away from a bunch of militia nuts in body armour with zip tie handcuffs & tazers

I dont rate this as the most legit news source but….

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-attempted-coup-federal-law-enforcement-capitol-police-2021-1?

Some more detail here

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/09/us-capitol-insurrection-white-supremacist-terror

Two pipe bombs had been found at Republican and Democratic party offices near Congress and the assault on the Capitol had begun. Those who had gathered there in the morning were a harder-edged crowd than the Ellipse – more male with a lot more paramilitary gear. Someone had hung a rope noose on a frame on the Capitol grounds, and the vocabulary was noticeably more violent.

“I heard at least three different rioters at the Capitol say that they hoped to find Vice-President Mike Pence and execute him by hanging him from a Capitol Hill tree as a traitor,” Jim Bourg, news pictures editor in Reuters’ Washington bureau, recalled on Twitter. “It was a common line being repeated. Many more were just talking about how the [vice-president] should be executed.”

Even with the rubbish police response they really did not get that close to any of the lawmakers and in the US even more than in many other countries seizing the parliament buildings will do very little

Yes they were only a door and some SS agents away from pence at one point but they would never have got thru the doorway – they would have been shot. first one shot and the rest run awy

Revolutions only work with a huge majority of the country running them – see romania

kimbers
Full Member

Great thread here about the more serious looking militia types

One of the men photographed with zipties was a retired airforce lieutenant colonel.

His explanation is brilliant though- he just found them, and thought it was a bit worrying, so he was going to hand them in to the police- only slightly undermined by the fact that he had the chance to do so, and didn’t. “Oops, those hostage-taking tools I found unattended and thought was worrying enough to pick up keep safe? I subsequently forgot all about them”.

But why were you there, if you’re totally blameless and not associated with violence, rioting etc? “I saw no signs of violence, I thought we were welcome to enter the building”. And the tactical gear? “In case I got stabbed by antifa” He says he definitely didn’t enter Pelosi’s office, even though he was filmed leaving it- I mean, leaving an office isn’t suspicious, only entering it would be.

I watched season 7 of homeland, I’m not sure if that’s influenced my take on this, at the time I thought that series was a bit daxt, but now….

“Yes they were only a door and some SS agents away from pence at one point but they would never have got thru the doorway – they would have been shot. first one shot and the rest run awy”

Of course, you’re right. I forgot that they had all been thoroughly searched by the police before they were allowed in the building, no chance anyone could have bought in a gun, a hand grenade or an error…. um…..PIPE BOMB!

I’m sure Pence pretty chill about it all, probably caught up on a bit of paperwork whilst the fuss was going on.

There were 4 men with pistols behind that door, there were hundreds on the other side!

tjagain
Full Member

first one shot and the rest run awy

You know that someone was shot, and the rest did not run away, right?

Where is Chewk?

pointing out that Donald Trump and Cyril Smith have never been seen in the same room?

Makes you think…

I don’t expect there to be any trou me at the innaugaration at all. The odds of a lone wolf type attack succeeding will be no more than for any other inauguration. (Not that there won’t be lots of nutters planning or fantasizing about it)

The inaugaration will have the tightest, heaviest security for anything ever in the history of everything.

TJ, They were there due to the political rhetoric of a despotic child who demands ultimate loyalty and cannot accept defeat.

Excellent Twitter thread below by Seth Abramson, I know, yet another “Twitter thread” that is essential reading reading but please do, Seth is a fantastic journalist who dissect trumps “stop the steal” speech and exposes it for what it is, a brazen call for insurrection.

It’s long, but very much worth 20mins of your time

(THREAD) Media has yet to do a deep dive on precisely what Trump *said* in his January 6 speech in DC—a speech now called an "incitement to insurrection," and the basis for an article of impeachment coming Monday. This thread unpacks the speech. I hope you'll read on and RETWEET. pic.twitter.com/ba6eaNScNW

— Seth Abramson (@SethAbramson) January 9, 2021

I’d like to have a look at cable guy’s parler account. I Imagine the Feds are having a peep right now.

You know that someone was shot, and the rest did not run away, right?

They didn’t come thru the door tho did they?

I think if they had tried there would have been dozens dead

What’s that phrase?

“we’d run out of bullets before they run out of bodies”

I think you need to read a book on risk assessment.

I think if they had succeeded it wouldn’t have looked too good for Pence and Pelosi.

Somafunk – that long Twitter thread is 😱. I’ve not heard the full speech before.

Using that Pie character to say, “people need to calm the ____ down”, is bit hypocritical, no?

They didn’t come thru the door tho did they?

The woman who was shot was the first climbing through a broken window toward the secret service who were pointing guns at her. When she fell backwards some people ducked but most remained standing and at least one took his phone out and started texting.  It was weird

Trump keeps going so he can fund raise from his base

The so called coup was Trump throwing that away, any coup needs to be led, there was no leadership, he just launched them and hoped something might happen. What did happen is brave people did their jobs and normal service returned

What was the threat from the crowd? probably handguns (but no law enforcement hit), two guys with cable ties and two pipebombs which are small beer for American domestic terrorism, not even at what could be described as a top tier target for your average mid ranking officer from a banana republic. They were political, meant to disrupt, but not really coup material. We have seen a lot worse at state level in the US

The sad incident where the person was shot, it wasn’t just four guys with pistols there was a heavily armed squad the other side, watch the videos they come into shot immediately after she is first moved.

Why was this the typical Trump failure? The crowd were all sorts of randoms and small groups, some had there own plans, some had no plan and went with the moment. The more “dangerous” types seem not to have made any ground other than with the crowd they will spend the next few years telling stories about what could have been waiting for the FBI knock at the door. The reality was that there was no plan, it was a spoiler to stop Biden having a simple confirmation. They most certainly were not planning which US military units were going to which TV stations and when to knock out mobile and internet Comms (you know, like what you would do if you were that mid ranking officer from a banana republic planning a coup)

The policing strategy was a joke prior to the march on the Capitol, but the right decision was made not to resist the crowd when they didn’t have numbers, they kept people safe, they allowed the energy to disipate, and then swept them back out again when reinforcement arrived. Bloodbath avoided, one potential martyr, probably neutered by the death of the police officer.

And now the arrests start with the FBI investigating and likely to have the secret service and other agencies in the mix. Personally I’d have waited for 21st Jan so Trump couldn’t pardon them.

Three steps back for the MAGA loons

What’s that phrase?

“we’d run out of bullets before they run out of bodies”

I think you need to read a book on risk assessment.

I think if they had succeeded it wouldn’t have looked too good for Pence and Pelosi.

I think TJ has it right, they would have been stopped but a lot more would be dead, the squad with rifles crowd side would have made a mess and it gets very hard to be number 11 trying to get through a small window when you have to climb over the ten previous dead bodies.

Yeah, I hope the fbi is building a case against trump personally but after spending far too much time browsing the investigative Twitter threads over the past couple of days I fear that once they start to unravel this act of sedition and research all the players involved it’s going to be a very rough time for America’s standing as the seat of democracy around the world.
It’s more involving than can be merely blamed on a riotous unruly crowd, they knew exactly why they there, they knew exactly who summoned them there, they knew the exact verbal cue point in the speech “and we’re going to the capital, to take back our country, so let’s walk down Pennsylvania Avenue” and off they went, trump incited a riot/insurrection on capital hill.

If there is a golden thread to the speech and specific lines in it Trump will be in real trouble.

I really don’t think he is capable of that level of planning

Also too many randoms in the crowd, I kept noticing a woman in a hat and pink coat taking selfies near the press. Smartly dressed, clearly not there to mix it

NEW: Amazon is booting Parler off AWS, its web hosting service, knocking the pro-Trump social network offline until it finds a new host. https://t.co/zdR68ASJM2

— BuzzFeed News (@BuzzFeedNews) January 10, 2021

Parler’s CEO confirms and says Parler could be off of the internet for up to a week: pic.twitter.com/mrs7bIjMjS

— Brian Fung (@b_fung) January 10, 2021

This is insane. Chairman of the Nye County, NV GOP telling local Republicans that Trump’s going to be inaugurated on the 20th and to keep the faith. https://t.co/Um7vjcybzf pic.twitter.com/T7JwpPqx9m

— Cam Edwards (@CamEdwards) January 10, 2021

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/01/09/politics/mary-miller-apologize-hitler-comments/index.html

Republican US Rep. Mary Miller of Illinois

Hitler was right on one thing. He said, ‘Whoever has the youth has the future.’ Our children are being propagandized,” Miller had said, appearing to read from prepared remarks.

THREAD One of the weirder statistical consequences of the riot.

You can only be denied a security clearance (or have a current one revoked) if the allegations made against you fit within one of 13 adjudicative guidelines, numbered A-M.

— National Security Counselors (@NatlSecCnslrs) January 10, 2021

My prediction is, we're going to see a lot more Guideline A cases in the next couple of years. Probably more cases in 2021-22 than in the previous 20 years put together.

I'm actually ok with that.

— National Security Counselors (@NatlSecCnslrs) January 10, 2021

Even with the rubbish police response they really did not get that close to any of the lawmakers

But not because of want of trying, they knew where to find Nancy Pelosi’s office, and (obviously) ransacked it. Without looking, would you know where to go to find the offices of Speaker or Leader of the Opposition at the Palace of Westminster? I wouldn’t. Some-one had done their homework. Plus there’s that picture of the bloke with the zip-ties, he was going to take hostages.

The so called coup was Trump throwing that away, any coup needs to be led

Just because it was a badly executed one, shouldn’t distract people away from the fact that it was a coup attempt. America needs to ask it’self why it treats demonstrations like insurrection (the BLM march of last summer) and it’s insurrections like demonstrations (the Stop the steal march of last week) I understand there’s a racial element, but it runs deeper than that alone.

Also too many randoms in the crowd, I kept noticing a woman in a hat and pink coat

The marchers themselves are a bloody weird group, and they use a weird mix of symbols (there’s a PHD in this probably) but here’s neo-Nazism, Wotanism, southern Christianity, holocaust denial, bible references, US army fatigues and paraphernalia, it’s such a weird group of often conflicting world views…

You know that someone was shot, and the rest did not run away, right?

They didn’t come thru the door tho did they?

there had been a few doors before they got to that one and there were no where near as many mean in body armour behind it. I think as we first saw pictures it sort or looked like the protesters just ambled in and wandered around until they reached the chamber and that that was the only point the only point where there was any kind of push back –   but seeing more footage emerge now its less surprising that people died

Although having been chased by a hippopotamus myself I can testify that they are absolutely bloody terrifying and responsible for more human deaths than any other animal.

Hippopotamuses kill c 500 people per year
Dogs kill c 20 000 to 50 000
Mosquitoes kill in the millions

You’re miss-reading the use of the word ‘they’ – multiple dogs are and mosquitos kill thousands / millions per year – but he referring to  one specific hippopotamus killing c500 people per year. He simply neglected to mention that when the hippos was chasing him they were driving a bus – and they have a bit of habit of falling asleep a the wheel

Even with the rubbish police response they really did not get that close to any of the lawmakers

Because this cop distracted them and led them the other way. If they’d noticed the open door, it might have been totally different.

Senate door was sealed at 2:16p. All this happened at 2:14-2:15p. The police officer, who is black, led that all white mob away from the unsealed Senate door by deliberately shoving the lead guy and then retreating in the wrong direction, away from the Senate, as they chased him.

— zeynep tufekci (@zeynep) January 10, 2021

Revolutions only work with a huge majority of the country running them – see romania

I think TJ sums it up there.

The specific point Inkster was stating was that the US had “succumbed” to mob rule, when clearly it hadn’t.

There’s a significant number of people on this site who really like to jump to the far end of any point of view without stopping to check if what they are saying makes logical sense when the facts are considered in the cold light of day.

The zip ties were pretty sinister – they weren’t just a job lot of big fat cable ties brought along just in case, they were double-looped, made specifically to restrain people. And the seeming collusion of some of the police is **** chilling….

For me, the big take from this is that the US has been removed as a player on the world stage more effectively than at any time since its founding. Any time it wants to comment on a power transition anywhere else this weeks scenes will be played back.
As Russian interference through organisations like the Wagner Group is seen more and more in Africa, former Soviet republics, Latin America and other places the US and U.K., formerly the centre of coalitions preventing this, have been almost completely removed from the equation and rendered impotent.
The US has lost influence in the UN, EU, NATO, WHO and other international bodies, and have no moral heft to promote their way of democracy as exemplary.
I remember in the 90s thinking the west had won the Cold War, but Putin and his used his sock puppets to win the geopolitical game in the early part of the 21st century.
I think Trump is acting as his ego and personality dictate, rather than receiving overt signals from Moscow station, but I also think their has been a lot of effort to put him where he is, amplify and promote certain messages amongst his advisors and supporters and disrupt groups and actions which would have stopped this sooner.
Whoever in the FSB twigged that switching from using ideology driven left wing politicians to ego driven right wing politicians was the best way to achieve their goals was a genius.

Revolutions only work with a huge majority of the country running them – see romania – I think TJ sums it up there.

The start of the Romanian Revolution was a small protest march of Hungarians who were protesting about a church being shut down.  The Boston tea Party was perhaps less than 30 folks.

Just because it was a crap one does not mean it wasn’t a coup attempt, he’s got more & more desperate as lawsuits failed & as Abrahmson pointed out has been planning this for a month, he’s no general directing his troops, just a rabble rouser winding up his base & pointing them where he wants them
Has this been on a warm summers day (27-32 is optimal riot temp) & not in the middle of a pandemic, the crowds would’ve been much bigger

Trump would never describe it as a coup, he doesn’t believe its a coup, just him getting what he really deserves

The fact is he told his crowd to go and stop the confirmation of Biden

Half of Republican voters thought the election was rigged

That’s literally millions of Americans

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-poll-idUSKBN27Y1AJ

And this was just a couple of months ago

6 men charged with conspiring to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer, face maximum penalty of life in prison https://t.co/6i3LLXyNAy pic.twitter.com/or8PVPPKYU

— Orlando Sentinel (@orlandosentinel) December 17, 2020

The Seth Abramson twitter is an interesting read.

I’m not a historian, or a propaganda expert, so it may be entirely correct and if so that is very sinister. And I’m in no way defending Trump or the insurrectionists, but I wonder if he is really that smart (maybe his speech writers and team are though). But it does read a bit like the Billy Shears / barefoot Paul….. where you can interpret stuff however you want if so inclined.

But if Abramson’s correct that’s the point, clear to those who want to hear the message; deniable if you want it to be.

But if Abramson’s correct that’s the point, clear to those who want to hear the message; deniable if you want it to be.

I’m not sure it is deniable when broken down piece by piece like that.

Whether Trump put meticulous thought and planning into it is another matter.

Even if he didn’t, it displays a criminal level of irresponsibility.

People still underestimate Trump. He has shown time and time again that he knows how to give contradictory messages to different groups of his followers, often on the same day, using ambiguous/deniable language and different tones/styles of delivery.

I’m not sure it is deniable when broken down piece by piece like that.

But the white suit Lennon / black suit Ringo / denim George / barefoot Paul can fit a narrative perfectly. IF Paul was dead and the Beatles wanted to give that message secretly that’s exactly how to do it……

There’s a significant number of people on this site who really like to jump to the far end of any point of view without stopping to check if what they are saying makes logical sense when the facts are considered in the cold light of day.

We are forgetting the maxim, “The price of liberty is eternal vigilance”. This dismissal of the potential seriousness of what occurred last week is partly why we (liberal democracy) is in the mess it is. Complacency got us this far, we all need to be more engaged not just the moneyed classes.

Amazon has kicked Parler off its Web hosting services.

The suspension means that, unless it can find another host, Parler will go offline.https://t.co/Yx0AssaEe7

— Kyle Griffin (@kylegriffin1) January 10, 2021

Parler in big trouble now. Hosted by Amazon, probably needs to be rebuilt from the ground up even if it finds a new host because of reliance on Amazon code.

There is a debate to be had about how a few tech firms can wipe out free speech, even if you’re happy for Parler to get canned, which I am.

There is a debate to be had about how a few tech firms can wipe out free speech, even if you’re happy for Parler to get canned, which I am.

Free speech refers to not being persecuted by the government for your opinions. It’s nothing to do with private companies being compelled to help you publish your ideas. This site, for example, has standards of conduct and can ban anyone they want. It’s a private business and they are under no obligation to let people post on the forums.

The U.S. Bill of Rights, which guarantees free speech, was written over 200 years before Twitter and Facebook were invented. Clearly you can have free speech without those. You can talk to people, print pamphlets, send email, etc. That’s all free speech.