U.S. Presidential Election 2020

But democracy is only as good

It also struggles when the people shift to the extremes instead of the middle.
Democracy requires co-operation and majority agreement.

As soon as you end up too close to a 50/50 split you end up with an issue. Not only is there no genuine majority, but due to the fragile and close nature of the split it pushes people further into their corners and makes co-operation less likely, rinse and repeat until you have half the people working against the other half and no path out of it.

Fundamentally what needs to happen is that people, and the governments that represent them, need a stark reminder that they need to be working for something, and not always against it.

Lasting progress comes through shared goals and compromise on how to get there, not (barely) overpowering the opposition to get your way until the next time 2% swing the other way and it all gets undone.

So you agree, it’s not that it can’t be done that’s the problem, but because they don’t want to fix the system.

The system is working well for Republicans from rural areas. They are in a position to obstruct nearly anything. Democrats want to change things, and I agree with most of what they want to do, but it is not as simple as assuming they just aren’t trying. The U.S. system is set up so that rural states have disproportionate power. Wishful thinking won’t make that go away.

What Biden can do now that he has a majority in the Senate is get cabinet ministers, judges, etc. confirmed. That allows him to run the government and issue executive orders and regulations. His administration can also appoint special investigators to look into the Trump administration’s misdeeds. There will also be Republicans who have reasonable policies they want implemented, but that aren’t Democratic priorities. Biden can threaten to veto any legislation related to that.

Stuff like that is how U.S. Presidents get things done. Boldly trying to amend the constitution is not. It might be possible to have the pardon power limited, but it will take years of bipartisan work to make that happen. Biden can’t just walk in and demand that it be amended.

probably extends to pardoning his own direct family, but that is more contestable

Which hole did they all disappear down anyway? I know the daughter piped up about daddy but her husband and those other shit bags seem notoriously quiet (I don’t follow them on social media, but their deluded thoughts generally get propagated to the mainstream). It’ll be tough for them to escape this sinking ship.

Pardon for what?

That Douglas Murray article is the epitome of fake news.

The whole purpose of the article was to smear and draw false equivalence with BLM.

His main assertion is that BLM protesters would have been treated exactly the same as these domestic terrorists were.

That’s one of the saddest things about modern partisan politics; Genuine progress where everyone wins is resisted to make sure the ‘other side’ lose/don’t win.

Probably the biggest single thing (more than corruption and self-serving which has a far smaller impact) to cause me disillusion with politics.

After GravySeals say hi to MealTeamSix

https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/mealteamsix

That’s one of the saddest things about modern partisan politics; Genuine progress where everyone wins is resisted to make sure the ‘other side’ lose/don’t win.

The problem is that people don’t see it as “everyone wins”. They see people they disapprove of winning and assume that it’s at the expense of themselves. Currently, the Trumpists are the major problem with this, but it’s a universal human thing and right-wing nutters aren’t the only ones who fall for this.

FPTP is the problem, it basically guarantees a polarized two party system.

Two party systems tend towards zero sum “I win, you lose” and consensus politics disappears.

Throw in disproportionate franchise and you have the hot mess that is the USA

Guardian reporting that elected republicans from states and off duty police officers were active parts of the mob yesterday. Openly sharing what they were doing on social media and utterly convinced of the rightness of their cause. That’s tragic and a bit scary.

It also struggles when the people shift to the extremes instead of the middle.
Democracy requires co-operation and majority agreement.

Agree. This is why PR is so important because it requires co-operation.

Exactly this ^^^.

Like here (to a lesser degree I guess), the US is all about being self-made and successful. if you start handing out free universal healthcare to people that did not pay for it, what incentive is there for others to do the same? Why am _I_ subsidising those workshy scavvers?

I think this has been pushed here with benefit cheats in the tabloids and is a big lever to pull for people that work hard and pay their taxes. It all falls into “commo n good” vs. “individual benefit” and people not being able to see past their own personal bubble. America is just wearing its colour closer to the surface that the UK.

active parts of the mob yesterday […] utterly convinced of the rightness of their cause.

This is the problem for me, and it all falls back to the tide of fake news that Trump built his whole presidency on.

“The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.” (1984, George Orwell). It’s not the stupid lying-your-way out of trouble that I naively thought it was in 2015. It’s always been their policy and this was exactly the intended outcome.

Pardon for what?

This is apparently not important. Pardons can be written to pardon a person for a specific crime, but there is nothing that says they have to mention specific crimes. A ‘blanket’ pardon covering basically everything is thought to be possible.

This is apparently not important. Pardons can be written to pardon a person for a specific crime, but there is nothing that says they have to mention specific crimes. A ‘blanket’ pardon covering basically everything is thought to be possible.

**** hell!??!!

Though it’s still unclear if he can parson himself and it creates the problem that it sort of admits to having commited a crime, this then creates other issues. If he does pardon himself I can see long running legal battles in his future.

I wonder what on earth led to the whole pardoning “thing” being in the constitution?

I’m guessing that there was a genuine and benevolent intention but when the totally immoral are in power any tool can be repurposed for harm.

A ‘blanket’ pardon covering basically everything is thought to be possible.

Which is what Nixon received from Ford – basically a pardon for any offences committed between two specified dates.

Could a pardon even cover murder? I don’t mean inciting I mean gun in hand, pull trigger murder, hypothetically?

It also struggles when the people shift to the extremes instead of the middle.
Democracy requires co-operation and majority agreement.

As soon as you end up too close to a 50/50 split you end up with an issue. Not only is there no genuine majority, but due to the fragile and close nature of the split it pushes people further into their corners and makes co-operation less likely, rinse and repeat until you have half the people working against the other half and no path out of it.

I think the most depressing thing with our own democracy in the uk  – despite our system being not as binary – is when we have a close election and parties have to look to form a coalition the one partnership thats never mooted is one between the two largest parties – each will look to make extraordinary concessions to small fringe parties to just give them the one extra seat they need knowing that the situation will be fragile and that those fringe parties would have them over a barrel – they wouldn’t think for a moment to seek to work together and form a governement that represents the largest chunk of the electorate.

A ‘blanket’ pardon covering basically everything is thought to be possible.

I don’t know the history of this, but the obvious case is Richard Nixon who was basically given a free pass. Nobody challenged that, but Nixon was disgraced and everyone just wanted to move on. So that was as much a political pardon as a criminal one.

Problem is, no president has tried the self-pardon, so there isn’t any case history. If Trump tries it, it will definitely go to the Supreme Court because it defies common-sense.

Another potential problem will be potential charges of obstruction of justice based on Trump pardoning Roger Stone etc. in exchange for them not ratting on him. There is a view in the Department of Justice that sitting Presidents can’t be indicted, but no real case history because this sort of thing has never happened in living memory. Also, there’s no consensus on whether they can be charged after their term ends.

I’m not a lawyer, but it seems pretty clear to me that Trump is guilty of obstruction of justice, including the pardons for his crooked buddies. Assuming the Supreme Court upheld a conviction on that, the question then would be whether the corrupt pardons were revoked or not. This stuff is all unprecedented, so Trump will probably die of natural causes before it’s all resolved.

Could a pardon even cover murder? I don’t mean inciting I mean gun in hand, pull trigger murder, hypothetically?

Ten examples of murder and conspiracy to murder and a couple of manslaughters too and a couple of attempted assassinations –  although in some instance the pardon is about commuting a sentence that was seen to be unconstitutional – where the sentence gave no prospect of release – so they didn’t “get away with” murder but the  nature of  their sentence was later seen to be unfair. Tends to be military personnel too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_pardoned_or_granted_clemency_by_the_president_of_the_United_States

Could a pardon even cover murder? I don’t mean inciting I mean gun in hand, pull trigger murder, hypothetically?

You mean like opening fire on a street full of innocent Iraqi civilians, war crimes, etc? Do a quick news search on the pardons Trump has issued in the last few weeks. Utterly sickening.

Cheers, I’ll have a read of that.
I’m guessing no president has ever attempted to pardon himself though. When Nixon couldn’t/wouldn’t have done that I suppose.

Hell, he makes Nixon look like a conventional president.

I wonder what on earth led to the whole pardoning “thing” being in the constitution?

Blatant miscarriages of justice can be corrected. I think most democracies use a review system, where petitions for pardons are reviewed at lower levels and not left to political considerations. The U.S. system is an anachronism, but it’s written into the constitution. The constitution has had a few amendments, but Americans worship it like the Bible so most of it reflects 18th century thinking and it’s close to impossible to amend it now.

There’s a chance Biden may offer him a pardon.

It wouldn’t be a bad idea, it could be seen as a way to end division in the US and at the same time, it taint Trump further, because if he was pardoned, he must have done something wrong.

It wouldn’t make a blind bit of difference to the swivel-eyed loons from Qnon etc, but there are a lot of moderate Republicans in the US, some will have voted for Biden, but will likely not vote for Harris in 2024.

Though it’s still unclear if he can parson himself and it creates the problem that it sort of admits to having commited a crime

But is that a problem for him? The left know he’s committed crimes, but his fans think he’s a genius. See the whole ‘tax returns’ debacle.

He would play it along the lines of:

“I’m sad to be leaving the presidency, but I’ll be back and stronger than ever in 2024! Now, those deep-fake deep-state actors don’t want me to run again, but I hereby promise you good folks that I will! Sure, they’ll all try and stop me – they know what we’ve achieved so far and how much of a threat we are to their deep-state system. Sad! But I’m smart (so smart!) so I have a plan to own the libs. I’m going to pardon myself and all the hardworking folk in my administration. That way they’ll never take me down! Make America Rise Again! <without irony> Drain. The. Swamp! #Trump2024

Hell, he makes Nixon look like a conventional president.

Nixon, Reagan, the Bushes, John McCain, Romney, all look like raging pinko-liberals in comparison. Jesus, Romney’s immigration policy was to just make immigrants so miserable they would self-deport. He was such a pussy he even supported granting human rights to refugees.

There’s a chance Biden may offer him a pardon.

Normally I would say that would be a good political move. In Trump’s case, zero chance. The implication of a pardon is that the person is guilty. If Trump came out, confessed to everything, showed remorse, and apologized, then a pardon might be a good idea. Ain’t gonna happen.

I Trump is pardoned in any way and then is called as a witness in any case he can no longer plead the 5th and if he is not 100% forthcoming or truthful then he goes to jail for contempt of court. thats the dilemma for him

This is interesting:

Maryland Governor repeatedly denied authorisation to send the national guard to DC.

https://theweek.com/speedreads/959671/maryland-governor-said-repeatedly-denied-authorization-send-national-guard-dc

It seems like it should be fairly easy to work out where the orders came from, and when. Someone’s got significant explaining to do.

The constitution has had a few amendments, but Americans worship it like the Bible so most of it reflects 18th century thinking and it’s close to impossible to amend it now.

They were happy to repeal the 18th amendment. They are up to 27 amendments, the last being made in 1992. So not a frequent occurrence but feasible nonetheless.

I Trump is pardoned in any way and then is called as a witness in any case he can no longer plead the 5th and if he is not 100% forthcoming or truthful then he goes to jail for contempt of court. thats the dilemma for him

But what if his pardon covers contempt of court? Either way, he’ll try and stay out of court rooms through whatever means possible.

Imagine if all the off duty police that were part of the mob had stopped their rioting and decided to help their fellow officers out.

They are up to 27 amendments, the last being made in 1992. So not a frequent occurrence but feasible nonetheless.

The 27th Amendment was proposed along with the Bill of Rights way back in the 18th century. It sat on the shelf for 200 years before it was ratified in 1992.

The 26th Amendment was proposed and ratified in 1971. It is currently the most recently proposed amendment. That was 50 years ago.

The 25th amendment was proposed in 1965 and ratified in 1967. That was four years before the 27th.

The 24th amendment was proposed in 1962 and ratified in 1964. That was three years before the 26th.

So, it used to be fairly easy to amend the constitution. Now, it’s not. That’s for political reasons, not legal reasons. It hasn’t happened in 50 years and Republicans are not going to support an amendment proposed by Joe Biden.

It hasn’t happened in 50 years and Republicans are not going to support an amendment proposed by Joe Biden.

Then Biden should still do the right thing and let them vote it down, highlight that the Dem’s would concede presidential powers for the good of the nation when they are in control and have the power not just calling for it from opposition. Let the republicans humiliate themselves trying to argue against it.

But what if his pardon covers contempt of court? Either way, he’ll try and stay out of court rooms through whatever means possible.

That would be pardoning for future crimes not past ones which cannot be done. a pardon does not give you blanket immunity for ever.

It looks like the normal service of caps and exclamation marks has been resumed

The 75,000,000 great American Patriots who voted for me, AMERICA FIRST, and MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN, will have a GIANT VOICE long into the future. They will not be disrespected or treated unfairly in any way, shape or form!!!

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) January 8, 2021

That would be pardoning for future crimes not past ones which cannot be done. a pardon does not give you blanket immunity for ever.

I’m sure he would state something along the lines of the pardon can be used for any crime, but that he will use it for a specific charge. He can only be compelled to answer questions about that crime, but he will argue that

I.e. His narrative would be that they’d have to charge and convict him of a crime, and only then be able to compell him to answer further questions. But, oh no, he can’t comment on that because it might reveal a different crime. State court, bounced to a higher court, back down, back up, maybe to the Supreme Court. All over the space of a few years, by which point he’s an old man.

We still haven’t seen the guy’s tax returns.

It looks like the normal service of caps and exclamation marks has been resumed

Good. Impeachment was always going to be harder to justify when he was pretending to be conciliatory.

Let the republicans humiliate themselves trying to argue against it.

Have you read the news in the last 15 years? Do you seriously think Republicans care about humiliation in front of liberals. Check out Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley. Both are graduates from elite law schools and understand the law. Supported the insurrection because they don’t care about humiliation, just whether rednecks will vote for them.

The gold plated bawbag has just tweeted that he won’t be attending Biden’s inauguration. Completely expected classy move there Donald