TrainerRoad – STW approved sessions

I don’t think TrainerRoad would make it easy to transfer workouts to a Garmin, mainly because that would make it easy for people to nab and swap them and then avoid paying the subscription.

Fair point, guess I’ll take the time to build one in Connect when I prefer to ride outdoors…just for the purposes of sticking closely to the plan.

Last Sunday I managed to complete my first TrainerRoad workout actually on the road, actually made it quite fun to train with a planned power session whilst riding through the countryside.

Fitted a 4iiii PM to CdF and a decent iPhone holder, then wearing a HRM I could run TR. I could even run Strava in the background so I could track the mileage/course when it all uploaded in Strava and Connect.

Largest challenge was to keep constant power output with the ever changing road conditions, certainly was shifting gears much more than a normal road ride but I guess with a few more TR road sessions I’ll find a balance.

Can’t be arsed to check now, but if I remember rightly, the mid volume just adds some low intensity stuff. I take that to mean ‘the two quality workouts are the meat of the week, the rest is up to you’,

yep, I’ve recently moved from Mid to Low volume, as I couldn’t see the benefit of the extra two rides. I race or get a long ride in sunday, so I was always skipping that ride, and if I feel fresh on a Wednesday I prefer to do a hard 30 minutes, than a long, gentle 1h30. if I’m not fresh I’ll have a rest day…

Largest challenge was to keep constant power output with the ever changing road conditions, certainly was shifting gears much more than a normal road ride but I guess with a few more TR road sessions I’ll find a balance.

I’ve found that the easiest way is to ride a harder gear, however this can change the nature of your cadence / muscular force requirements of the workout.

I noted my power was on average lower than the target when I tried to stay on target, so now I aim for about 15w over which gets me close to the average required watts for the interval.

Newby question. My Elite Direto came with a free month on Trainerroad so going to give it a few months to see how I get on.

Does using a low volume plan when combined with outdoors and Zwift sessions along with weights and running seem like a good way to go?

2-3 hrs of weights
4-5 hrs of running (half of which is one run)

I always use a low volume plan, leaves room for club/cafe rides etc to pad out the TSS

Yeh, I’ve been mulling it over this morning and it makes the most sense to go low volume.

Assuming there’s no issues running apps simultaneously, e.g. Zwift and Trainerroad? Only one would be set to sync with Strava which is the central storage point for workouts!

I could do that via two devices if needed, Zwift on iPad and Trainerroad on the phone.

I run Trainerroad on my iPhone and let it control my trainer. Then I run Zwift through my PC and let it discover my Power data but not control the trainer obviously. Provides a bit of visual stimulation and captures my (albeit Zwift) miles.

Welp, back on this after a long damp summer of not riding my bike enough.

How many dark chocolate digestives will my FTP test result make me want to eat?

17

Coincidentally that’s also my target power!

It’s meant to be! 🙂

Just finished the first four weeks of Sustained Power Build (Mid Volume) and was pleased to add 15w back on to my ftp 🙂

I guess that means this week is going to hurt a lot 😆

I actually found the TR protocol for the 20minute test gave me a worse paced test than I used to get with Rubber Glove. That said, I didn’t perhaps go quite hard enough in the five min effort 😀
You’ve got to be pretty brave to nail that one flat out with the 20min block looming large on the horizon 😆

Oh god that was horrible. Thought I was going ok in the 5 min effort (coming in 3W under target) but then when I started the test I watched my target slipping away.

As always 10-15 minutes was the absolute worst but I made it through with fairly reasonable pacing after looking at the data.

I think that shortbread has put the evil on me with his magic numbers. I came out with a 17W loss on my FTP since I last tested in January.

Not best pleased with the numbers but I know they’ll go back up if I put the work in!

Must be the night for it, I did the 8 minute test…thought it may be easier to pace over a shorter time, then switch to the 20 minute tests once base/endurance is finished. May be overthinking it though.

Anyway, unsurprisingly down on my mid-season outdoor test…but about 10% up on this time last year (3w out from my estimate!)

Grim though, roll on 6 weeks…

Surely the 20 minute test would be better from an endurance point of view? Also, I always thought that you should pick one test method and stick to it since different tests will give you different results.

Surely the 20 minute test would be better from an endurance point of view?

Yes, but wondering if I’m more likely to perform the 20 minute better after 12 weeks of muscular endurance…before the build period.

Surely then you’d be better off staying with the 20 minute test the whole year so that you can compare efforts from before and after the base/build blocks?

In my mind there’s more value in doing a test that is repeatable and comparable to the other tests that you do than doing a one off that gives you good numbers but that you can’t repeat. (not that that’s what you’re doing)

I thought about not even testing before the training and setting my ftp off of my old one. I’m glad I didn’t though as the workouts would have been impossible!
As it was, knowing all the intervals were anchored to my correct FTP gave me the confidence to finish them all.

I find the first one feels like “crumbs, this is serious!” The middle one like “right I’m done, but I’ll try one more” and the last one “Wahoo! I’m a training god to get through that lot!” 😆

Here’s a related question.

On Friday I’m off to TorqFitness where I’ll meet my coach and we’ll do all sorts of testing, including a 20min test. That test will be done on a Wattbike. Seeing as my ftp – when measured at home – varies by about 12% indoors vs outdoors, how will I use the derived number accurately at home?

Apologies if the answer is ” ask your coach” 😀

I don’t think you can without knowing how close your power meter and the wattbike are to each other anyway?

My personal view on the indoor/outdoor/uphill ftp thing is that your ftp is what it is but the percentage of it you can realise in a given environment will vary. How important it is to close that gap is up to you but what ultimately matters is your performance on race day so as long as the plan you are following is lifting all your figures (i.e. Indoor and out) and not making you a one trick pony then don’t worry about it.

Does FTP Change When Climbing?

Surely then you’d be better off staying with the 20 minute test the whole year so that you can compare efforts from before and after the base/build blocks?

In my mind there’s more value in doing a test that is repeatable and comparable to the other tests that you do than doing a one off that gives you good numbers but that you can’t repeat. (not that that’s what you’re doing)

Tend to agree tbh, I followed the TrainerRoad plan and noticed sweetspot bases 1 & 2 start with the 8 minute test while the build period (sustained power) uses 20 minutes.

As I said I may be overthinking it, have just noted in the foot notes it adds to use either.

There are a couple of articles on which test to use:
Ask Chad[/url]

TR support page

Interesitngly they also suggest choose 20min v 8min based on your discipline. So for most of us racing cx and xco the 8 min test is better, but if you are into marathons i gues the 20min test.

I have to do one next week as its definately getting to turbo time.

On Friday I’m off to TorqFitness where I’ll meet my coach and we’ll do all sorts of testing, including a 20min test. That test will be done on a Wattbike.

1. congrats on biting the bullet – you won’t be disappointed

2. I’m surprised – I’ve always done the test outside with them – 30minutes up the local hill which goes on forever! Nearest I’ve ever come to throwing up, truly hideous…

How many dark chocolate digestives will my FTP test result make me want to eat?

More likely how many dark chocolate digestives will reappear after/during your FTP test 😳

Hi Adsh – how’s your health – improved?

Well as you will know, that was horrendous. I was told yesterday they’ve reverted to the wattbike after a fasted awakening as it produces more consistent results.

Well, I’ve learned so much my head is spinning. After an initial discussion we performed the LT testing. The good news there is that I’m apparantly very fit and have a strong aerobic engine. Then theres a sprint test within which I’ve always suspected I’m strong but got a number in excess of 1200w.

As usual for me, my FTP test was sickening and painful but smooth via a negative split. Coach was impressed with my consitency and both of us less so with my actual FTP. He remarked that he believes I’m capable of exceeding my current league resuts (18th Vet Eastern this year) without too much (relative) difficulty.

With that and the education, we think we’ve found the missing piece of the puzzle in my training and riding and next week I’ll have a plan developed to address that for next March. In additon my Carb and water habits were crap, ultimately meaning I’m pretty much riding Carb depleted most of the time which of course is affecting my performance. My plan will be shown to me monthly, to account for my varied – travelling salesman – lifestyle but also my psychology, in that making sure I don’t lose focus on the immediate.

With appropriate training in the right zones – which changed a lot, I’ve been undertraining – I’m told a significant improvement is possible.

So, we are targeting Marathons and regional races next year, and I’ve been asked to consider nationals for 2019, with a view to picking a target national placing in 2020.

Adsh has said this in this thread or another – but I’m amazed at the difference this will make. The only issue now is time and discipline that I have to commit to racing by changing elements of my lifestyle a bit.

A brilliant day with a long drive at the end but if anyone – like me – has taken up racing and wants to find some paths to improvement I can thoroughly recommended it, its a real game changer for me.

I’m back to health and am pretty much back up to speed training.

That sounds very positive. Glad you’re a different age band!

Interesting stuff Kryton, would love to hear more about it as you go along so keep us informed 🙂

Curious as to why your zones were too low if you were disappointed with your ftp?? You retested not so long ago and saw a good improvement didn’t you?

Torq use lactate measuring for Z2 so if you’ve got a very good aerobic base you may inadvertently be training in Z1 if you use the traditional FTP based method.

Yes – exactly that ^^ was happening.

So its measurement of my lactate profile which is determining my new training zones not just my FTP. FTP of course is the power you can put out for an hour, whilst LT threshold determines whether you are cycling Aerobic or Anerobic.

For me personally I’m not very powerful but I’m very Aerobically fit. So my training will seeking to push my Aerobic zone – upper end of zone 2 – upward pushing everything else with it – e.g. “raising the floor” is a better strategy for me as I already have a high roof.

Then the nutrition element will seek to ensure my glycogen stores remain available to me throughout the race.

FWIW I’ll be riding a Z2 lunch ride tomorrow about 40w higher than previously, and my 20 min “sweet spot” sessions are within a hairs breadth of my FTP rather than the 85% some trainer road sessions have, plus I’ll be training 2-3 days back to back to develop greater stamina.

Of course, the evidence of any success will be found out next March. Nice to think I can reach 18th Regional whilst training in Z1 😉

Ah cool. That all makes sense. I wonder how close Friels zones would have put you as his Z2 has always been criticised as being too high.

I guess that’s a flaw with TR’s FTP scaled plans- you end up with their power curve 😀

Another good reason for choosing Sweetspot Base over and above their traditional base too perhaps.

FWIW I’ll be riding a Z2 lunch ride tomorrow about 40w higher than previously, and my 20 min “sweet spot” sessions are within a hairs breadth of my FTP rather than the 85% some trainer road sessions have, plus I’ll be training 2-3 days back to back to develop greater stamina.

Now you will understand how I could get so tired on Z2

Enjoy the Z4 – 4x15minutes ? The perfect combination of intensity and duration to be true agony. It’s a very effective session.

Sounds a bit like Sundays treat which was Juneau -1.
4×18 @ 88-92%

I did it outside which was tricky and they ended up being a little harder- you need a lot of room to fit 18 minutes in without stopping 😆

Now you will understand how I could get so tired on Z2

Yes, and I also criticised you for eating Gels during a ride/turbo session of which I’m now enlightened so I humbly apologise!

Enjoy the Z4 – 4x15minutes ?

Thats tomorrow. I feel remarkably refreshed after todays Z2 and I suspect the change in my nutrition strategy.

This looks pretty good…

http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/ftp-is-dead-the-sufferfest-launches-4dp-training-51020/

Been saying this for a while and I’m surprised that TR or Zwift haven’t implemented something similar yet for scaling workouts.

there are guys who are really good at sprints who can put down big watts but struggle with long efforts,

*waves*

It will be interesting to see if it generates workouts that are fundamentally different than those based off of FTP in practice though.

Regardless of the hole in your powercurve, a periodised plan will still spend the bulk of its time trying to raise your FTP. The shorter power durations are the icing on the cake and should be specific to your event surely?

If the 4d assessment tells me my 30s power is lacking but my favourite races finish with a 3min charge to the line then what use has it been??

Will watch with interest but seems like the Sufferfest hunting for a niche.

It’s interesting but I’m wondering about the incremental gain for the average user.

I’m the opposite of Kryton in that in general I can sustain long efforts but my short power is poor. I struggle with TrainerRoad sessions that are all about short power and quite often don’t successfully complete the workout.

So let’s say TR then scales those workouts for me down a bit so I can complete them.. Apart from the psychological satisfaction of completing workouts what’s the performance advantage of (for example) completing 15 x 135% vs 13×140%

Would there also be much performance gain if my sweet spots are not quite sweet enough?

Having written this and thinking about it I’m not sure what the average user actually is on TR / Zwift in terms of where they sit for fitness / expectations. I know some quite fast people who have decided it’s “good enough” for the price that they don’t need a coach and others who have come to the opposite conclusion.

f the 4d assessment tells me my 30s power is lacking but my favourite races finish with a 3min charge to the line then what use has it been??

I’ve not looked into the specifics… but 🙂 I’d assume that the 4D assessment isn’t going to tell you that anything is lacking as such. For your example, you’d pick sessions or a plan that are relevant to your goals/event then it’d tune the intervals to your specific characteristics.

Apart from the psychological satisfaction of completing workouts what’s the performance advantage of (for example) completing 15 x 135% vs 13×140%

I guess the opposite example probably better illustrates it, someone who achieves the 15 @ 140% and isn’t pushed as hard as they need to be as they are much stronger at short duration intervals than you are. For that person the profile would make the workout harder so relatively they are working as hard as you.