Trail centre cheapskates

rkk01

Visiting a trail centre as part of a longer ride from further out is totally different to my mind.

It's people parking just outside the toll booth or the entrance and riding in purely to avoid paying that I'm on about.

bassspine
If the car parks are full that's pretty unavoidable but at places like Hamsterley there are acres of space for parking all the way through the valley – I could never foresee an occasion when they would be full.

I begrudged paying my parking fee at Sherwood pines when I rocked up at around 8ish and the bloody toilets weren't open!!!! I had to turn back and head to the Maccy Ds for a Mc Dump 😆

cheeky monkey

There's a big difference between riding a public bridleway and riding purpose built mtb trails at an FC centre.

Trail centres might be on 'public' land but generally they are not routes A-B. They are leisure facilities built purely for the enjoyment of mountain bikers so a contribution seems fair enough really.

I'm happy to pay car-parking fees, but if there's somewhere free to park that isn't going to inconvenience me, others or break any laws, why shouldn't I park there? We all have our own ways of saving the pennies. How on earth did I afford the nice bike in the first place? Not by giving my money up every time someone asked for it, that's for sure. Do we all park in pay and displays when shopping even though there are perfectly good free spaces to park in? I doubt it…

…we go to Tesco instead 😆

who says you cant put a price on morals eh?

Drum; £5 each !!!!

OMGWTF!!!!!1eleven

yeah, I think drumlanrig is the priciest place I've ridden (that didn't have lifts anyway) but don't resent a penny of it. the trails there are quite different from the surrounding stanes etc and the cycling museum is mental … in a very good way

That pass has gone up from £20 to £40 I think for the two centres and £30 for just whinlatter

Oh, I thought it seemed like too good a deal. Still probably worth it if you visit both reasonably often though.

There's a big difference between riding a public bridleway and riding purpose built mtb trails at an FC centre.

Trail centres might be on 'public' land but generally they are not routes A-B. They are leisure facilities built purely for the enjoyment of mountain bikers so a contribution seems fair enough really.

I figured you might feel that way, hence the examples. Why and exactly what is the "big difference"?

Public land is public land. Managed by whatever authority through taxpayer funds eg. Council tax to local authority, budget for up keep of BW's etc. Tax dollars to central Govt which some goes to FE whilst rest of operational costs etc comes out of revenue (see point before about it being ours and that there's no major CAPEX as it's public property). The landowner / manager isn't a significant difference between the scenarios to make them incomparable, in my mind.

Not sure why the route is a distinction either. Public ROW are maintained for all sorts of reasons and I'd hazard a guess that the majority of ROW exist nowadays for enjoyment (whether in a circle or straight line). There's little droving and yomping to get from the country to market in town etc 😉 What I mean is, they're no longer essential transport infrastructure that the LA should maintain, most of it really is for health, leisure and enjoyment (much like MTB trails).

A point of detail – trails are rarely (on FE land) ever "purely for MTBers" either. Standard FE policy for trails is to encourage their use by only MTB but they won't (possibly can't) deny access to walkers etc. They're built because there's a mandate on FC from Govt to do so.

If they're a Govt / publicly owned and funded body how come we have to pay again for something we're already paying for? We're already contributing through our taxes etc.

Again, I find the acceptance that you have to pay to enjoy yourself a bit wrong. I also find the assumption that paying a car parking toll in some way (at FE centres) directly contributes to trail maintenance and upkeep, or even off setting the CAPEX wrong as well.

IIRC the vast majority of funding for the 7 Stanes came from Opportunity 1 funding. That all comes from Europe. Where do they get their cash from? Taxes! So you see, car parking income isn't off setting CAPEX for initial development (usually the major expenditure).

Hey ho, not looking to have fight, just interested in why people think, automatically it seems, that you always have to pay.

Oh, and the class war bollox is just that, bollox 😉

Presumably £5 atr Drumlanrig isn't just for parking but for entrance to the grounds etc. Can't you ride there for free in the winter when everything else is closed.

Well no-one, I mean no body at all maintains footpaths and bridleways around here [OK there are some finger posts and the odd stile, but no surfacing work].

A few quid to ride slick, purpose built trails is OK by me.

to ride slick, purpose built trails

LOL, I prefer a few lumps and bumps myself otherwise you might as well be on a road bike 😉

Cheeky Monkey – I think people are mostly saying they're happy to pay, not that they think they should have to.

I'm sure most people are equally happy when there's no car parking charge.

Funny how the trails that cost the most to park at (Bedgebury, Dalby) aren't generally rated the best to ride.

It's frustrating to hear that a great trail like Penmachno might be threatened by people not putting anything in the honesty box, whereas if an expensive machine had been installed there'd probably be a much higher income.

I have no problem paying reasonable parking charges like a couple of pounds a day but I do have an issue with paying city centre parking rates, Cambridge city centre Queen Anne car park costs £1 an hour, Thetford High Lodge charges £1.80 an hour. Dalby at £7 is way over the top and let’s not forget the Forestry Commission gets about £100M of our taxes

I think people are mostly saying they're happy to pay, not that they think they should have to.

Sorry, I'm probably coming across as a pedant but the key difference is compunction (i.e. parking charges) or voluntary contribution. At FE sites you're not talking about voluntary charges, you're talking about being compuned (??) to pay a fee.

I agree that most people seem happy to contribute (rather than "pay" which implies having to give the money) on the assumption that it's going into the trail. As I've said, I don't think that usually occurs on FE sites.

In any case that acceptance is based on the fact that they think there is something to pay for in the first place. I don't think there is because it's already come out of taxes etc.

Hey, if anyone really wants to pay for the joy of having a trail then SingletrAction would be more than happy to receive your cash 😉 I've just had to buy £250 of aggregate to surface the Descent Line Extension (well, not me the club) And we've not got a parking meter (and it's on FE managed land.

My, what a mass of contradictions I am 😉

Thing is CM, if you don't pay to use the land the Govt/FC will need to raise cash somehow to pay for it.

http://subrosa-blonde.blogspot.com/2009/05/scottish-forestry-commission-to-sell.html

I do it at Hamsterley all the time.

Mainly because in the winter the car parks get locked beyond a certain time (6pm) and I often go to ride between 5-7pm. Check my windscreen next time, you'll find I often buy a ticket to park outside of the forest anyway…

I have never been to drumlanrig but i thnk £5 per person is too much – make it per car instead.

You could also ask the council to make the road nearby no parking to stop folk from parking on it to avoid the fees.

Drumlanrig is an a rather different position to most centres tho being a private enterprise

I don't think the parallels with supermarkets apply here. The FC/FE have some revenue streams – franchises, event fees, timber, etc – but they're not necessarily selling a product to their visitors in the same way, and they won't be able to draw on all sources of cash at a given site. I'd agree that a bit more financial transparency might not be a bad thing for them though.

Where can you buy the passes for Grizedale and Whinlatter, i cant see it on the FC website, or can you just buy on site ?

I got one from the VC at Whinlatter.

the comparison with supermarkets is BS, they provide free parking because people spend a shed load of money there every week. If FC or landowners charged an entry fee for use of the trails, the parking may well be free.

I wouldn't necessarily have a problem paying per person if the money went directly to improving and maintaining the trails. Why should we be any different from the bike resorts in canada and europe. We might not have lifts but we do have tons of purpose built trails which somebody has to pay for.

As already stated Dalby is £7 between March & October per car & not one penny of that goes towards the trails
I have a £42 season ticket which works out a bit cheaper for me but £7 ??

I used to park down in Thornton-le-dale for £2 & use the cafe & facilities there instead – much nicer & better value TBH

Fc passes here

http://purchase.tickets.com/buy/TicketPurchase?agency=FORESTRYMEMBERS&organ_val=33707&schedule=list

£7 per car at dalby, but that paid for 4 of us in a van last time. Less than £2 each for a fantastic days riding. I really think some people just like a moan. 😉

Just by way of comparisson:Go Ape at Aberfoyle; 2 kids (who of course have to be accompanied by an adult who pays more!) cost the princely sum of £65 last time I looked.
Come back Sir Fred, all is forgiven!

£5 per person for Drumlanrig is one of the biggest bargains I've ever heard of. You'd pay £10 to get into a nightclub for 4 hours, £7 for the cinema for 2, anywhere between a tenner and fifty quid to see a couple of hours of music… £5 to ride perfect trails for an afternoon is amazing by comparison.

What boils my piss is the people who use the car parks and don't pay- at Glentress the money really does go into the trails, yet how many people on any sunday have paid? Fair play, some probably just don't realise they're supposed to, it's not all that well signposted but there's plenty who know fine well they should and just skive it. Total s***ehawks.

Just like to clarify that it's not just mountain bikers that get charged a fiver for Drum, that's the standard entry fee to the the castle grounds and country park. Everybody gets charged the same: the old biddies that dander round the gardens; the walkers that use the paths; the picnikers – everybody. And unfortunately it's the bikers who give all the grief at the kiosk, and I mean serious verbal sometimes (there's always a minority that spoil it). But guess what, those are the things that get trawled out at the weekly estate meetings, it's actually really embarrassing to hear and as I've mentioned it doesn't help justify new trail. Cheers for all the positive comments about the trails that definetely does help 😀 cheers

Seen those cars at Hampers too and thought about it myself but just don't have the cheek to try for the sake of £3. You pay nearly that for a trip anywhere more for a lot of touristy places. True about the gates though and they don't open till about 8am either.

And how come a Dalby pass is £42 (@7) while H is £38 (@3)?

Just think, if England had the same access rights as Scotland, there wouldn't be this problem.

The trail parks would be used by those riders who wanted a manufactured experience, and the rest of the country could be used by those who wanted to go places.

Maybe the stingy riders should stop acting like misers, and instead petition their MPs for Access Rights.

Call me a tightwad, but I don't see the need to justify myself if I find a free and legal parking spot to access a trail centre. If they started charging me to pay to access the trails, then I'd pay. But paying for parking is just that – you pay for parking. If I choose not to use their parking facilities then I'm not going to pay.

Call me a tightwad

Tightwad.

Ah but fanatic, levelling a parking charge is (as discussed above) for most places the most practical way they can levy a charge for trail upkeep.

I've not ridden drumlanrig, but that so many speak highly of it means when I get round to it, I won't begrudge the £5.

Pisses me off folk trying to save a few quid on expensive bikes etc. Also e.g. folk at the races moaning about the cost of entering going up a fiver or whatever when they have boxxer world cups. Buy some teams, use the savings to pay for a race season! Not likely to make you any slower! And if it does, you're probably sponsored anyhow.

I ride a nice bike cos I can afford to, if I couldn't I'd rather have a total shed of a bike, but be able to afford to ride it exciting places.

I didnt know you could get a pass to the whinlatter & grizedale trails.

I would get one but i think the police may be getting annoyed at all the parking permits i have on my screen.

NT – check
7 Stanes – Check

I am running out of room

I guess I'm not telling the whole story. At Glentress there's a few marked parking spaces that aren't subject to the fee. If I'm early enough I'll take one. I wouldn't go and abandon my car in some random grass verge just avoid the charge. As soon as the free spaces fill up, then I'll pay.

But saying that, if someone tries to charge >£6 to park then I might have second thoughts about that grass verge if others are doing it too.

IIRC, the FC is not allowed to charge for access to trails or the like, so charging for parking is one of the ways they are able to monetise trail centres. The money that goes towards trails may not always come directly from parking fees but I expect that the FC won't invest in trails if they don't think they'll get something back from them – money from parking or in some cases brownie points for encouraging tourism or public fitness.

but I expect that the FC won't invest in trails if they don't think they'll get something back from them

There's a couple of places up here where the FC have done some building and the car parks are free. It's not on the scale of Glentress, but still quite some effort involved in the build. I imagine there's some government requirement to open up their land for leisure use.

Just think, if England had the same access rights as Scotland, there wouldn't be this problem.

I'm sure TJ will be along to confirm, but I believe you can be charged for access to purpose-built trails in Scotland, regardless of access laws.

I never pay to park when I ride at Hamsterley, because I ride there. Want to save the £3? Simple – leave the car at home.

i currently dont have to pay for parking as i live directly in town and have to pay for lifts instead.. 19 euro for a day card to ride up and down the mountian..(austria)

however in my opinion, i think paying anything more than £2 is pretty much a rip off for parking…

i would personally park a little further away not because im tight either just because i find it a joke tbh.

its public paths, ok they are prepared for the summer, but how much upkeep is needed to make during the year 1 time 2 times 3 times in a year and what are you paying for?? the people to do it or materials? i personally dont no anyting about it so cant comment on the upkeep but i see it that if it doesnt happen then you will still be able to ride them? just a little more rough and reddy??

i used to live about 15 mile away from aston hill and refused to pay the obscene charges!!

you cant compare the prices to cinema etc because they are more expensive!

£6.50 for an adult in cinema in MK and have to pay to park also so thats now £8 you grab a drink like you would do in the cafe of a trail then its £10 ish… thats why people get pissed with paying trail prices.. if they said you pay £2 to enter the trails or walks etc. not the car park everyone would have to pay? and dont think many people would grumble with that too much inc me.

year cards are a good idea but not alot of info are about. if they made abit more publicity, i think alot of people would take it up especially for £20 type thing, or £5 direct debit per month or a monthly payment with paypal type thing.

well shoot me now lol

I never pay to park when I ride at Hamsterley, because I ride there. Want to save the £3? Simple – leave the car at home

i think thats what people mean tho, also if you dont pay for the car they dont get anything at all…?? if i understand correctly?

the comparison with supermarkets is BS

Who's comparing with supermarkets? The point I was making is that I can't believe many of us would pay for a parking space if there was a free one available. I have NO PROBLEM contributing to the upkeep of trails through whatever charges are levied, but why on earth would I want to use a space where I needed to pay if I can park for nowt? If people can find a safe and legal space outside the trail centre that costs nothing and then cycle in the 100 metres, 1km, 10kms then why not? At what distance is it OK to "park and ride?"