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- Ties and blazers for all pupils.
- Soldiers to instill discipline.
- Allow successful schools to go private.
Are they trying to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory?
I'm really glad to hear this.
It's about time they revealed themselves for what they're like.
They couldn't possibly have kept it hidden for much longer. 😯
Are you deliberately twisting what's being said, or simply misunderstanding?
The troops to teachers thing sounds barking.
Just let teachers throw board rubbers again and hand out the odd canning.
There doesn't seem to be enough staff generated terror any more.
I am obviously missing something.
What does this demonstrate about the party's innate evil?
Although I rather agree with Ian about Troops To Teachers. We have supposedly got a shortage of soldiers, and a shortage of teachers. Using some of the soldiers to teach seems a bit wierd, but presumbly the Teachers to Troops programme will redress the balance by seconding the best maths teachers to active service units of the Scots Guards...
I think the point is that Cameron has tried to portray them as some kind of progressive conservatives, whereas actually they are just going for their core vote of Daily Mail readers again.
Within 100 days of winning an election, a Conservative government would identify the "very worst" schools, those that have been placed in special measures by Oftsed for more than a year – there are currently 100 – which would be taken over by heads with a proven track record and proven academy sponsors would be put in charge.
I'm curious to know where they are going to find 100 top heads who want to take over a shithole school?
Or academy sponsors to take them over? Are the schools going to be sponsored by Dave Hinde?
You pay them shedloads. Then the Daily Mail finds out how much they're paid, and goes completely postal about public sector pay. Only a true Grand Master thinks this far ahead. 🙂
I'm curious to know where they are going to find 100 top heads who want to take over a shithole school?
Presumably they'd tempt them with higher salaries. Oh, hang on!
What does this demonstrate about the party's innate evil?
"The state monopoly over schools would be removed" sounds pretty evil to me. State education is at the very heart of a civilised society.
Is 'Troops to Teachers' any different to current policies of encouraging people from the private sector to become teachers?
He isn't talking about having children marching up and down and standing to attention in class, he is talking about taking people that have certain skills (not all 'troops' are infantrymen, most of the military have other skill sets that are comparable to those of folk in the private sector and thus are equally as transferable to the teaching sector) and trying to encourage them into teaching.
I don't vote Tory but I can see this being a quite popular 'policy' with an electorate who is bombarded daily by the media with how our children are the scum of the earth (which they are not) and its all the fault of teachers (which it isn't) due to a lack of discipline in schools (who are there to teach, parents instill discipline).
I'm really glad to hear this too.
I'm guessing you two don't actually know much about education eh?
Lets just hope they follow through when they get into power.
I'm curious to know where they are going to find 100 top heads who want to take over a shithole school?
You'd be surprised - I'd imagine plenty would consider it a challenge which would look good on their CV. There will doubtless be other incentives. It's not like they'd be simply parachuted in and expected to fix it all on their own. I'm sure the principle is that other things are put in place as well - he mentions having academy sponsors. Not actually a new idea at all (apart from maybe the suggested scale) - you'd be better off accusing him of stealing existing Labour policy, given what he's suggesting is pretty much what has just happened to a local failing school, with a new name, an academy sponsor and a "celebrity" head teacher. Probably too early to tell, but reports so far suggest it's working.
Regarding "troops to teachers" - you lot do realise that soldiers get pensioned off by the army well before normal retirement age, and generally take on other jobs after leaving the army?
[i]He isn't talking about having children marching up and down and standing to attention in class[/i]
Well he bloody well should be!!
dazh - I see you've replied to the thread, yet no comment on whether you're deliberately twisting what's been said, or simply not understanding?
"For far too long, out-of-touch bureaucrats have imposed faddy ideologies on our schools," he said.
Anyone else's irony meter just exploded?
I imagine that's a quote a bit like Mrs T's "there's no such thing as society" - though of course you've never been able to work that one out either, GG."The state monopoly over schools would be removed" sounds pretty evil to me. State education is at the very heart of a civilised society.
I'm really glad to hear this too.
I'm guessing you two don't actually know much about education eh?Lets just hope they follow through when they get into power.
Why's that then? How do you think it will improve things?
I have many friends who are teachers and I work in education, and it seems to me the main problem in schools is the ridiculous burden of planning and evaluation paperwork that teachers have to do. It drives away good teachers and makes the job a massive pain in the arse.
The tories talk about faddish teaching methods etc, then introduce the most ludicrously gimmicky substanceless proposals
He pledged to remove the people who had "dumbed down" the education system.
Does he know who they are then?
He claimed standards had dropped in English schools in the last 12 years, citing international league tables
A weak argument. Other countries have improved.
while discipline problems had worsened as pupils manipulated the human rights laws to appeal against exclusions.
Nonsense. In 2006 the House of Lords considered the right to education (Protocol 1 Article 2 of the ECHR) in relation to exclusion decisions. They concluded that the ECHR does not confer a right to be educated at a particular school, but a right not to be denied access to the general level of educational provision available. In the case of Begum, which concerned a Muslim school girl who was not permitted to wear the jilbab, the House of Lords found (by majority) that her right to manifest her religion under Art 9 ECHR had not been subject to interference.
Need I go on?
[i][b]State[/b] education is at the very heart of a civilised society.[/i]
Does it actually matter who provides the education, or is it the fact that it is available that matters?
As I understand it, the Big Idea is to somehow persuade parents to run their own small schools. Is that really a conspiracy against civilisation? (I accept that the idea is probably not going to fly, and/or that "postcode lottery" complaints in the rightwing press will wreck it if is does). 🙂
Anyone else's irony meter just exploded?
You're not seriously using one of those in party conference season?
He's my MP he is.
I did really worry for a while that the Tory Party Conference might end up being a triumph for them...with lots of common sense policies paraded out by one shadow cabinet member after another.
But, this is marvellous...they really are nutcases aren't they? I'll be really worried if they get in on what I've heard so far. Change? Change you say? It's like a freakin chimps tea party in Manchester.
he mentions having academy sponsors
Joy, more monied d!ckheads like Reg Vardy who think making a financial contribution gives them the right to tinker with the curriculum.
Anyone else's irony meter just exploded?
You're not seriously using one of those in party conference season?
You have to have them upgraded to cope at this time of year 🙂
Quite right Mr Agreeable
Does it actually matter who provides the education, or is it the fact that it is available that matters?
Yes it does matter who provides. And I'm not aware of any country in history where universal education has been provided by anything other than the state.
You're not seriously using one of those in party conference season?
School boy error. If only i'd had a soldier in my classroom as a kid...
BTW - do they really think the teacher's unions will allow this militarisation of schools? I know a lot of teachers who would strongly object to such a policy.
Yeah this really sounds like something the BNP might come up with.... Oh look
Britain once led the world in education and technology – and can do so again, but only if it follows some basic rules to rebuild its educational system in such a way that it nurtures the innate genius which lies in our nation’s youth.
The problems with the British educational system are well known to all. Simply put, the British educational system is not working. Exams have been dumbed down and while more students are obtaining meaningless bits of paper, employers are complaining that graduates cannot spell.
“Citizenship” lessons are a euphemism for political indoctrination. Discipline has collapsed, trendy teaching methods have failed and schools face a crisis.
http://bnp.org.uk/policies/education/
I worked independently in a targeted troubled school a few years ago. Working with students who were on the verge of expulsion. There was an organisation bought in to help some of these students which had been set up or set up with the Military. I can't remember what it was call at the moment.
It's hardly a new idea though, maybe they intend to introduce it on a larger scale?
It did appear to be working and they had some good results.
Shhhh roper - can't have that sort of talk around here 😉
anything will be better than the society that has been created by Blair and Brown,
[i]Yes it does matter who provides. And I'm not aware of any country in history where universal education has been provided by anything other than the state. [/i]
You don't need an example of where universal education has been provided by something other than the state, you need an example of the state not having a monopoly on education has led to the collapse of civilised society. I think you won't find either.
Why does it matter, in your view?
As far as I'm concerned, the important thing is to get children (and indeed adults who have missed out) decently educated. I'm happy to accept that there are many ways to skin a cat and that it is possible to imagine non-state providers coming up with ways of educating people which work perfectly well. As long, to repeat, as the education is happening to everyone who needs it and no-one is being excluded from it entirely. This may well involve a state guarantee or some form of safety net as well as all manner of alternative provision. 🙂
anything will be better than the society that has been created by Blair and Brown
Really? Are things really that awful? Anything would be better than sitting on your arse posting on a mountain bike forum with the name 'toomanybikes' wouldn't it.
Mrs rkk01 has recently started work in a school that was in special measures. It has a new head, but the leadership isn't / wasn't the reason for the school's low level of achievemnet.
The school in question takes all of the kids which have been excluded from other schools in the County, all they know is fighting and kicking the sh!t out of everyone. Discipline is (semi) maintained in a very physical manner using approved restraints. The parents are off this planet - clue - this is the problem.... the staff / head are those given the unenviable task of managing the problem
"he mentions having academy sponsors"Joy, more monied d!ckheads like Reg Vardy who think making a financial contribution gives them the right to tinker with the curriculum.
Maybe you should find out what having an academy sponsor actually means before dismissing it. Then again what else would I expect on the STW forum than the uninformed giving their opinions. This thread says a lot more about the STW forum bias than it does about Tory policy.
Fundamentalist Christians who do not believe in evolution have taken control of a state-funded secondary school in England. In a development which will astonish many British parents, creationist teachers at the city technology college in Gateshead are undermining the scientific teaching of biology in favour of persuading pupils of the literal truth of the Bible.
Emmanuel College - set up by the Tories - is designated a beacon school by the Labour government and its backers are sponsoring a city academy to be built in nearby Middlesbrough.City technology colleges are technically independent schools but charge no fees because they are funded by the government as well as the private sector. City academies are similar although local education authorities have to agree to their creation.
The school is hosting a creationist conference this weekend and senior staff have given a series of lectures at the college urging teachers to promote biblical fundamentalism and giving tips on techniques to make pupils doubt the theory of evolution.
it is possible to imagine non-state providers coming up with ways of educating people which work perfectly well.
That assumes you can find someone who has pots of money and wants to improve society, without having any agenda or axe to grind, and who is quite happy to leave the actual implementation to people who know what they're doing. 🙂
aracer, your saucer of milk is on its way. 🙂
... and ex-military in the classroom is not uncommon.
As posted above, many retire from the services at a young age with another career in front of them. My maths teacher was ex-Navy, and he was a bloody good teacher, mainly because he knew man-management and how to get on with people...
However, ex-military in the class room are first and foremost, not ex-military, they are current qualified class teachers. Fine if DC want to get more ex soldiers into teaching, can't see anything wrong with that, but the ethos and standards of behaviour that they bring to the profession will need to be those of the teaching profession, not of the military. They will be constrained by the same beaureacracy (child protection, depending on your viewpoint)as any other teacher.
.....do they really think the teacher's unions will allow this militarisation of schools?
How did you read that into it?
They aren't talking about having uniformed members of the armed forces working in schools routinely, they're talking about encouraging people leaving the military to consider taking up teaching, transferring skills they've developed during their service to the education system, same as current the private sector to teaching program is.
And no I don't mean skills such as how to play soggy biscuit, how to iron your trousers or how to strip and clean an L85!
Yeah this really sounds like something the BNP might come up with.... Oh look
It gets better and better - the modern form of [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum ]Reductio ad Hitlerum[/url]. Can I invoke Godwin's law for mentioning the BNP nowadays?
the troops to teachers thing isnt really a bad thing is it , it doesnt mean they are gonna get drilled and beasted on the yard . dont know why hes focused on troops tho what about anyone how would make a good teacher
my brother in law was in the army with me and he is now a teacher at a very good school and he doesnt hit them or anything 😉
Mr_A - Agreed in part, I don't think the Tories are going to achieve anything very radical. But to be honest, the idea that the national curriculum does not evidence some sort of "agenda" is suspect. When I was doing GCSE biology, the only thing we were definitely, positively supposed to know was how osmosis worked. Someone in Whitehall had decided that this was an [i]incredibly important[/i] thing we ought to know about. It was pretty odd.
You dislike Vardy on the grounds that he is a creationist, presumably? I'm not wildly comfortable with this sort of thing either, but it doesn't seem necessarily to be a major disaster. I was taught by people who were convinced that Jane Austen was the greatest English author ever. I survived this pitiful attempt at indoctrination. 🙂
As I recall using former military personnel as teachers or as teaching assistant was proposed by the government as a way of instilling disciple in schools
That's all we need - as well as the kids - the teachers running riot with an AK47 when the voices tell them to
😉
You Weren't There, Man
on the flip side my english/pe teacher was a very troubled ex para that used to be quick to use the back of his hand . tho i kept us quiet 😉
It gets better and better - the modern form of Reductio ad Hitlerum. Can I invoke Godwin's law for mentioning the BNP nowadays?
OK why not debate the issues then rather than just insulting people and linking to Wikipedia?
Maybe you think rich evangelists using their wealth to promote creationism to the detriment of science is a good thing?
Plenty of ex soldiers out there in need of a new career, minus a few body parts - seems to hit a lot of the relevant characteristics too, disability employment, positive male role models for young people etc.
Indeed, this was common after WW2, demobbed troops becoming teachers, and a lot of people I know regarded, and still regard, these old boys as their greatest teachers, as they won respect from even the worst kids
OK why not debate the issues then rather than just insulting people and linking to Wikipedia?
If you look carefully you'll see I'm actually attacking your argument, not you. If you take that as an insult then maybe you shouldn't be on an internet forum. Meanwhile the wiki link was simply to help out those who might not understand what I meant - do you prefer having to go and look that up yourself (or is it that you don't like me making it so easy for everybody else to understand my point)?
To come back to my point, do you deny that suggesting something is bad because it's similar to something the BNP says is an association fallacy, hence "reductio ad BNP"?
it doesn't seem necessarily to be a major disaster. I was taught by people who were convinced that Jane Austen was the greatest English author ever. I survived this pitiful attempt at indoctrination.
I think the point is that if you go off to seek a career in science thinking that the world was created in 7 days, you are going to be at a crippling disadvantage. At least if you understand osmosis you can probably get a job operating a centrifuge somewhere. On the other hand, if you have been brainwashed to think that Jane Austen is the bee's knees, that isn't necessarily going to torpedo your literary career. Although you may have to have a sex change. 🙂
Re the military personnel in schools thing, part of me completely agrees with S&J's post. On the other hand, I remember the ex-military teachers at my school as disciplinarian knobbers rather than engaging pedagogues.
And, coming in the middle of a speech peppered with catchphrases like "dumbing down" and "political correctness", it's obviously meant to be interpreted by its target audience of reactionary dimwits as being the first step towards the reintroduction of national service.
If you look carefully you'll see I'm actually attacking your argument, not you.
Was talking about you calling people 'uninformed' - while offering no actual opinion of your own other than posting links to wikipedia, well done.
You didn't attack my argument - posting a link to a wikipedia article and invoking Godwin's law isn't attacking anything.
I'm happy to accept that there are many ways to skin a cat .....
Not when it comes to providing universal eduction there isn't. A state monopoly is always the solution to good universal eduction. In countries where the state has very little/no involvement in education, the results are not good. And I don't consider them to be very civilised societies.
But anyway, if the state shouldn't have a monopoly in providing universal eduction, why can't that be applied the armed forces too ? We could have private armies competing for contracts to control Helmand Province for example.
Kwik Army Solutions PLC could be awarded the contract on the basis of being 10% cheaper than anyone else and having the quickest completion date. They could lease tanks etc, off the government. Why not ? Save money and get quicker results, no ?
Because it's bollox, that's why. And the Tories talking about the removing state monopoly over schools is also bollox. And they are wasting time (as we are) talking bollox. There's real issues which need to be tackled. Instead of trawling through the gutter for Daily Mail votes.
[i]they're talking about encouraging people leaving the military to consider taking up teaching, transferring skills they've developed during their service to the education system, same as current the private sector to teaching program is.
And no I don't mean skills such as how to play soggy biscuit, how to iron your trousers or how to strip and clean an L85! [/i]
applause.
However, other than how to play 'freckles', what additional skills are there?
- Ties and blazers for all pupils.
Can I ask exactly what is wrong with that? The primary school I attended demanded that pupils wear ties and the secondary school demanded a blazer also. These schools were both in Motherwell which is about as working class and left wing a town as it is possible to get. My schools weren't out of the ordinary either as all the other schools in the surrouding areas demanded a similar dress code.
Well, contracting out military activity to private companies is widely done, and fairly effective in some ways. But the parallels are hardly exact. 😉
Can I ask exactly what is wrong with that?
That's it's a cheap attempt to pander to Daily Mail readers prejudices and offers no real solutions to anything?
AndyP - You're a filthy person.
Freckles!
I don't want to know what "freckles" is, do I? 🙂
It's what keeps our brave boys going in the face of so much adversity, or something.
Bollocks. I hate Google. 😯 🙂
Apparently...
Army drinking game. This version played as follows: Guys sit round a table, paper plate on the table. Someone 'curls one down'on the plate, and puts a second plate on top. Plate is slapped hard, resulting in shit flying everywhere. The shit particles; the 'freckles' are counted on each person. The one with the most buys the round of beers.
Well it did seem to engender a certain amount of pride in the school (although this can be taken too far), makes trouble makers far easier to identify outwith school, helps with the demarcation between school time and leisure time, and can help reduce some forms of bullying.
I'm not saying that it will instantly solve all problems but it isn't an inherently bad idea.
Are you still talking about "freckles", gonefishin?
Err no uniforms. I should probably have included some of grumms post.
You didn't attack my argument - posting a link to a wikipedia article and invoking Godwin's law isn't attacking anything.
OK - suggesting that an idea must be dodgy because it's similar to something the BNP said (that was what you were doing?) is association fallacy, and much the same as suggesting something must be dodgy because Hitler or the Nazis did it, which is also known as "reductio ad Hitlerum", and what led to Godwin coming out with his famous law. Is that better - hadn't realised I had to spell it out in quite such a longwinded fashion?
Freckles is for fiends though unbelievable not as bad as 'soggy biscuit'.
Our local secondary school has no uniforms, and still gets good results / no major problems with discipline etc.
Apparently when the inspectors went round last time, they didn't approve of this at all, and tried really hard to get the pupils to say that they'd rather have a uniform, or that they felt that not having a uniform caused problems, with no success.
Joe
OK - suggesting that an idea must be dodgy because it's similar to something the BNP said (that was what you were doing?) is association fallacy, and much the same as suggesting something must be dodgy because Hitler or the Nazis did it, which is also known as "reductio ad Hitlerum", and what led to Godwin coming out with his famous law. Is that better - hadn't realised I had to spell it out in quite such a longwinded fashion?
Not really because it still isn't a defence of the vacuous crap that both the Tories and BNP are coming out with. While the fact that the BNP also say similar things isn't in itself a reason to dismiss it, it also doesn't change the fact that it's vacuous crap.
Again, why not talk about the actual issues instead of paraphrasing wikipedia articles?
Well, you've moved from asserting it's vacuous crap because the BNP think it to asserting it's vacuous crap because it's vacuous crap . Which certainly makes the case all the more compelling. 😉
Well, you've moved from asserting it's vacuous crap because the BNP think it
When did I say that?
Oh sorry, were you comparing it to BNP policy as an endorsement? 🙂
Can I ask exactly what is wrong with that? The primary school I attended demanded that pupils wear ties and the secondary school demanded a blazer also. These schools were both in Motherwell which is about as working class and left wing a town as it is possible to get.
You say that like left wingers are against uniforms
[img] 
[/img]
Uniforms sounds like something the Nazis might come up with... oh look
[img] 
[/img]
...not that I'm suggesting uniforms are vacuous crap.
your posts on this thread are certainly vacuous crap. 😉
Hmm. This shadow minister who I haven't heard of until now firstly says remove state monopoly over schools, then mentions they can opt out of local authourity control.
But by opting out of local authourity control, they will have to be funded from somewhere, apart from a few Vardy's around, who's going to do that? Are they talking about opting out of local authourity control only, but the local authourity still funds them or complete removal? Which would mean they would be funded by the Government DIRECTLY.
State monopoly anyone?
I'm sure that there are plenty of Ex-soldiers in education, but this minister does specifically say "imposing discipline."
Apart from the discipline required to be a soldier how would this translate into the classroom?
Apart from the discipline required to be a soldier how would this translate into the classroom?
If pupils are misbehaving they bring in a soldier to shout at them?
Bimbler - MemberYou say that like left wingers are against uniforms
Where those two kids wearing uniforms in your picture Bimbler ?
It didn't look like it to me. But then I couldn't read what it said underneath. Did it say "here's two children wearing uniforms " ?