Tomlinson's killer to face trial

China is many things and one of those is a repressive regime however impressed/blind you were when you visited.

Maybe it just is not as bad as you think it is, why not go and see for you self?

So if I ask if i can see the torture chambers where the imprisoned dissidents are detained for re-education, they’ll say “hey, silly, you are a tease, we don’t do any of that kind of thing any more, That’s just, like SOOOOOOOOOOOOO last century”

But then, they’ll, like, show me a, like, really awesome skyscraper, and I’ll be, like… WOOOOOOOOOOOOW. Dudes who can, like, build really awesome stuff like that would never ruthlessly oppress their own population

So if I ask if i can see the torture chambers where the imprisoned dissidents are detained for re-education, they’ll say “hey, silly, you are a tease, we don’t do any of that kind of thing any more, That’s just, like SOOOOOOOOOOOOO last century”

But then, they’ll, like, show me a, like, really awesome skyscraper, and I’ll be, like… WOOOOOOOOOOOOW. Dudes who can, like, build really awesome stuff like that would never ruthlessly oppress their own population

like i said go and see it then get back to me. Some of those disidents would bring china to its knees if they had there way, or do you think religions that devide people by race are a good idea, well nether do the Chines government, so they band the cult. I dont see the Chines bombing the crap out of other peoples countries! Like our wonderful western governments! o yea human rights, what about all those Iraqis.

z 11 sorry for the delay .

This would seem to fit a manslaughter by unlawful act prosecution

Death must be result of an unlawful act the accused must have the necessary criminal state of mind for that unlawful act.

The act must be one that all sober and reasonable people would inevitably realize must subject the victim to at least the risk of some physical harm albeit not serious harm

Up to this point is a paraphrase of Archbold , what follows is my opinion and .
From the video and the inquest evidence the issue is firstly was there an assault or was the officer using reasonable force to achieve a lawful end. I’ve had my own settled view on that from the first footage and that has been reinforced by the inquest in particular the officers own evidence.

If there was an assault did death flow from that assault or the injury caused by it or was there an intervening event which renders the injury no more than part of the background history. That is where the original post mortem and subsequent ones through up a cloud of doubt that led to the Original CPS decision not to prosecute. There has been a tendency since the parental killing miscarriages of justice to avoid prosecutions where there are clear conflicts between pathologists or other experts. The inquest as an inquisitorial process has clearly aired that confusion and seems to have clearly eliminated the natural causes possibility.
While egg shell skulls are more relevant to the law of negligence the principle is the same I cant tie up an old lady rob her and then get off a homicide charge (murder or manslaughter) be arguing it’s her own fault for having a dodgy heart.

do you think religions that devide people by race are a good idea

But aren’t they all just “Chinese”? They all look the same to me, to be honest

do you think religions that devide people by race are a good idea
But aren’t they all just “Chinese”? They all look the same to me, to be honest

sorry i didn’t make it very clear the Chines government made the cult Falun Gong illegal it teaches people that the races should be kept separate and all other nasty shit, so they band it, then they get shit of western people for it. I just dont get it

do you think religions that devide people by race are a good idea
But aren’t they all just “Chinese”? They all look the same to me, to be honest

well they dont and i think thats a bit racist to me! im not saying ur racist just that it could be seen as racist!

I’m sorry, but if I’m a racist then so is Prince Phillip. And that’s just crazy talk!!

Anyway…. this cult? Like that Tom Cruise religion thing? With the spaceships n stuff?

Anyway…. this cult? Like that Tom Cruise religion thing? With the spaceships n stuff?

different cult but same sort of thing, its evil and takes money of week people and its really racist.

crankboy, from your professional perspective…

Putting aside all other considerations and circumstances of this case, and looking at it purely from the adversarial nature of the English criminal legal system, which case would you feel you had a better chance of winning, prosecution or defence? (And also accepting that you only have access to what evidence is publicly available).

Crankboy – given the fact that he was a police officer attempting (or at least indending) to prevent a potential breach of the peace (and given the fact that there had been violence already, public order situation, etc.) then would not the fact that in his belief Tomlinson was obstructing the police come into play?

seems to me that, in a public order situation, reasonableness is a very difficult area to judge, and spur of the moment belief, impression, difficulty of weighing exactly the appropriateness of an action, instinctivness of the action, and all sorts of factors are going to make that legality of the use of force argument really, really complex.

What’s Tom said about it then? I bet him and Penelope must be bloody livid!!

I dont see the Chines bombing the crap out of other peoples countries! Like our wonderful western governments! o yea human rights, what about all those Iraqis.

Ask the Dalai Lama In the hills of Tibet how many monks did the chinese get?

What’s Tom said about it then? I bet him and Penelope must be bloody livid!!

no idea lol 🙂

A question nobody else seems to have considered (apologies if I’ve missed it – skimmed a lot of the squabbling) – how can the plod get a fair trial given all the publicity? I mean you lot are deciding his guilt or innocence before the trial’s even started.

Anyway…. this cult? Like that Tom Cruise religion thing? With the spaceships n stuff?

No, I think he means like Nick Clegg

oh, hang on, ……. as you were – I misread that

I dont see the Chines bombing the crap out of other peoples countries! Like our wonderful western governments! o yea human rights, what about all those Iraqis.
Ask the Dalai Lama In the hills of Tibet how many monks did the chinese get?

Not nearlly as many as we have kiled to get some free oil, also that has to be put in historical context it was at the hight of the cultural revolution. which was not a very good time for china in many ways. Howver both china and Tibet were ancient enemies how had been at war for Centuries etc. now compare that to iraqi its very diffrent, sevearl million have died in the past few years. Get over it the Western governments do evil things too.

different cult but same sort of thing, its evil and takes money of week people and its really racist.

Like the iDave Diet Foundation?

Thegreatape z11 , I think from the inquest reports unless something new comes up the causation defence is on very shaky ground and a jury would believe that the blow(s) caused the fall the fall caused internal bleeding the bleeding caused or contributed to death.
The more interesting argument will be around lawful/reasonable force on that, the video does the officer no favours the background of his conduct before his interaction with Tomlinson puts him in a difficult light but significantly read his evidence to the inquest (available on line) I have sat in court and listened to a defendant sink his own case when cross examined. Harwood will need to do a lot to gain the trust of a jury.

I forgot to issue a retraction earlier on previous threads on this topic i slagged off the officers around the incident for not stepping in or coming forward at the time. While obviously they did not step in and in part one can see why not they clearly did come forward at a very early stage which was the right thing to do and also in many ways brave even though i hope little bravery is now needed for an officer to speak up about his colleagues conduct.

Free oil? Have you seen the price of a cruise missile? Its truly shocking! You could get a bike for that!!!!

Binners that is quite a distateful thing you said. The chinese police can tell the difference or else they would just be indiscrimanantly shooting their own citizens when there is a protest …oh hold on a minute ❗
As for tom Cruise are you suggesting he is hiding something in his closet ?

I’m still waiting for some actual evidence of the huge cover-up by the police? Other than a slightly retarded HOME OFFICE pathologist doing a shoddy job on the first PM? If you read the IPCC report and the coroners report you’d see that the police gathered huge amounts of evidence and information. How else do you think the CPS are in a position to charge him?

Now did anyone hear that story on the radio about Elvis shagging JFK at Roswell?

given the fact that he was a police officer attempting (or at least indending) to prevent a potential breach of the peace

Really? Cos from the video footage, to me (and lots and lots of other people including top legal experts and that), it just looks like some violent thug in a police uniform assaulting an innocent man who was posing absolutely no threat whatsoever, and did not appear to be acting in breach of the peace in any way.

Send the killer down. Maximum sentence. And bring all those who lied to protect him to justice too.

We, as a society, cannot afford to have a police force which is seen to get away time after time with murder and unlawful killing of innocent people, as well as being seen as a corrupt and deeply flawed institution. Otherwise the whole institution of Law and Order is undermined and lacking in moral and social responsibility.

ilovemygears, thanks for registering on stw – this place hasn’t been the same since AdamG and Lanesra were banned. You’re just what this forum needs imo to counter the dull and boring lefties, and the Tories such as CaptainFlashheart and Woppit, who are clueless and completely incapable of arguing their corner. I look forward to many more posts from you.

I bet he isn’t as good a fighter as lansera though?

Really? Cos from the video footage, to me (and lots and lots of other people including top legal experts and that), it just looks like some violent thug in a police uniform assaulting an innocent man who was posing absolutely no threat whatsoever, and did not appear to be acting in breach of the peace in any way

are these same group of legal experts that believe we should not be able to read things about losers in the news papers. The law is a ass, that guy was clearly getting in the way!

ernie_lynch – Member
ilovemygears, thanks for registering on stw – this place hasn’t been the same since AdamG and Lanesra were banned. You’re just what this forum needs imo to counter the dull and boring lefties, and the Tories such as CaptainFlashheart and Woppit, who are clueless and completely incapable of arguing their corner. I look forward to many more posts from you

thanks 🙂

“that guy was clearly getting in the way!” i know you believe that swallowing the Chinese state propaganda whole counts as “thinking for yourself” but you really are a bit off on your own on that one. Not one of the officers on scene aside from Harwood thought Tomlinson was getting in the way .

well the copper admitted he did not see him as a threat. As for getting in the way he was trying to get home which as far as I know is not actually illegal. If he was hampering a copper carrying out his duties he could have arrested him …odd the copper did not do this ..probably wanted to stay away from his van eh.
Whilst slagging off the west [ with some merit] this is not actually a defence of China’s action but your defence seems to be entirely I went there and it were right nice. I need a little more convincing.

BTW, Beijing is a city in China, it’s not China. What you saw may well not be representative…

And please, please try and use English in your posts. I’m struggling with the Chinglish you presumably picked up during your extensive travels in China.

ilovemygears – Member

thanks

No no …….thank you ! This place has become boring and stale with far too many sensible posts for my liking. What this place needs is someone to liven up the proceedings a little. And I really think that the guy who comes on here singing the praises of the Communist Party of China because of their apparently impressive ability to brutally crush all dissent, is the man to do it.

No really mate, I’m gobsmacked …… even I, a committed and incorruptible Marxist-Leninist, couldn’t lavish such unconditional praise on the self-serving brutal thugs which rule China……well done geezer 😀

And I really think that the guy who comes on here singing the praises of the Communist Party of China because of their apparently impressive ability to brutally crush all dissent, is the man to do it.

Hang on, weren’t you proudly describing yourself as a ‘tankie’ the other day – doesn’t that mean those that supported sending in the tanks to Hungary to crush dissidents?

no he was saying that was the insult used against him not that he really was one. He sia dhe liked the term though iirc.

You can call me a tankie of you want grum …….I don’t mind* 8)

btw I’m not going to get dragged into an argument about China or Hungry on a thread about Ian Tomlinson.

EDIT : * But don’t ever call me a Trot !

trot trot clippity clop

No no …….thank you ! This place has become boring and stale with far too many sensible posts for my liking. What this place needs is someone to liven up the proceedings a little. And I really think that the guy who comes on here singing the praises of the Communist Party of China because of their apparently impressive ability to brutally crush all dissent, is the man to do it.

No really mate, I’m gobsmacked …… even I, a committed and incorruptible Marxist-Leninist, couldn’t lavish such unconditional praise on the self-serving brutal thugs which rule China……well done geezer

marx said democracy was a bourgeoisie dictatorship. There not crushing dissent there simply destroying counter revolutionaries.

No, it was Lenin who said that bourgeois democracy is in fact a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, Marx spent 95% of his time waffling on about economics. Lenin also said that the highest form of democracy is the dictatorship of the proletariat – there’s nothing wrong with democracy.

And if you really ain’t trolling, then you’ve got a seriously fecked-up head coming out with “not crushing dissent there simply destroying counter revolutionaries”. I can’t be arsed to comment more than that.

No, it was Lenin who said that bourgeois democracy is in fact a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, Marx spent 95% of his time waffling on about economics. Lenin also said that the highest form of democracy is the dictatorship of the proletariat – there’s nothing wrong with democracy.

And if you really ain’t trolling, then you’ve got a seriously fecked-up head coming out with “not crushing dissent there simply destroying counter revolutionaries”. I can’t be arsed to comment more than that

lol i read Engels, what a load of shit, you do realise communism killed 100 million people in the 20th centuraty dont you, Lenin was a mass murder and a dictator. In my mind Marx is responsible for some of the worst crime in history. All i said was that China was a very nice place to visit and that maybe you should go see for you’re self instead of believing the shit you see on the net and read in newspapers. The west does propaganda as well you know.

So what was Chairman Mao then?

Elfinsafety – Member
So what was Chairman Mao then?

A guy with a swimming pool 🙂

ilovemygears – Member

lol i read Engels

You’re not the full ticket are you mate ?