Toe curling 650b marketing guff.

If that’s true about Orange I’m disappointed, I imagined that there was an element of service and backup available.

And given that the stuff is made by being folded and welded it wouldn’t kill them to run up a few more when they need to would it?

who has actually ridden a 650b bike and 29″ bike?

And a 26″, 2 of each, a couple I know pretty well and a few new ones. Back to back on some ‘generic trail centre’ sections. I thought it was all less to do with wheel OD and mostly to do with tyre + rim size, volume. A fat 650B beats a skinny 29er imo. Still preferred the bigger wheels for some stuff and smaller for others, bigger for most though. A fat bike gave me an idea of how far is too far though.

“all the math, all the science in the world to prove”

OH LAWDY *facepalms keyboard*

It just seems so obvious in a few years 26″ bikes are going to be brought back in a big way for their ‘flickability’, agility, how they’re like a jump bike for the trail, how they’re so easy to manual, how they accelerate so well, lighter, lower centre of gravity etc. etc.

The only bike i’ve actually wanted /considered buying is the 26″ wheeled stumpy evo and that has already sold out for next year apparently …I’m sure there will be plenty of 29er ones left though .

who has actually ridden a 650b bike and 29″ bike?

We’ve done all three sizes in Ibis Builds recently….

26″ 160mm rear travel HD

27.5/650b 130mm rear travel HDR

29r 120mm rear travel Ripley

The HDR is Marks (shop owner) own bike/shop test bike and from what he’s said after riding them round the Dalbeattie 7Stanes trail is…

26″ is fast, very fast and rock solid.
27.5″ is faster and more stable – a rocketship. 😉
29’r felt slower when riding but was the fastest according to strava, felt a bit cumbersome on tighter sections but the speed it carried through other sections was astounding/made up for slower steering response on tighter sections.

He uses strava and i guess he’s got pretty much every section sewn up after riding the ripley (unless it’s the climbs)

He’s not a slow rider either being ex Scottish DH champ and he’s the first to admit he’s laughed at the 29r fanatics over the last few years but after riding the ripley he held his hands up and said it is astounding just how fast the 29r is when you get it wound up, he prefers the 650b HDR though as it is just as chuckable as the 26″ with the ability to hit stuff faster and harder without any of the wheel flex but a tighter build on the ripley wheels may cure that.

My opinion is mleh 🙄 …………i couldn’t care less how fast i ride (non-strava user) or whether i shave another fraction of a second off – when i go out for a ride i go out to bimble and enjoy myself in the countryside well away from trail centres so my own personal opinion on the wheelsize debate is “i couldn’t give a flying ****” that’s why i’m perfectly happy with my 26″ hummer, I’m even getting my soulcraft 26″ wheel sized steel frame repaired so i can build it up with rigid 1 x 10 set-up.

I’ve not rode any of the above as i’m not that interested in them or going faster/harder so i can’t offer any personal insight on how they ride apart from i prefer the Blue colour of the Ripley 29’r.

So the Ripley 29’r is obviously the best in my opinion.

And is the “trek” woman in the video Chris, as in ex gf of chipps?.

EDIT….And as for Giant saying 26″ is dead?….i think they have managed to kill off the entire bike industry with this abomination, it’s even named the “REVOLT

A fat bike gave me an idea of how far is too far though.

Oh Lordy! You’ve really popped your old fella in a hornets nest there. Given how passionate the fatty riders are, you better sleep with one eye open 8)

Hi all, Chris the ‘Trek lady’ here (Who called me lady!? #insult)

Anyhoo…As there seems to be some confusion, I thought I’d unconfuserize my statements.

Before I do that, let me just point out that there has been a LOT of editing to this video. Tons of stuff that I said was cut, and I suspect that’s the case with everyone else.

So, here’s the rest:

-Nothing we do shows us that any bike, of any range of travel is faster than a 29″ wheel. There are always exceptions, but in a bell curve style, 29ers are faster, and roll over terrain better, in general. I know you are all sick of hearing about research and testing, but that’s just how product developments happen. If not, then none of the bikes you are currently enjoying would be here.
-My comments about 27.5 separating itself from 26″ when you hit 140mm of travel: For the type of riding that a person would do that means they would choose a 140mm of travel or more, then what we’ve determined is that 27.5 wheels perform better than a 26″ in terms of speed and control, but not as well as a 29er in terms of speed and control. It doesn’t mean that 26″ doesn’t work. It just means that a better small wheel is slightly faster and more stable, but it still closer to a 26″ in terms of performance. 29″ is still way out there.
-DH bikes are still at 26″ wheel sizes because of the difficulty in creating larger rims that are stiff enough to withstand the rigors of DH riding, without a huge weight penalty. Believe me, everybody is probably prototyping DH bikes with bigger wheels.
-The Trek range provides 3 wheel size options based on the type of ride someone wants to experience. Some people want to go as fast as possible. Some people want to stick with what they started on. Some people want a happy medium. Some will never change. Some will experiment. All of that is just fine by us.
-The Fuel EX range comes in 26 and 29. Remedys as 27.5 and 29. Slash will be 27.5 only. Session, still 26.
– Many of our lower price point bikes will be 29ers simply because they are stable bikes for people to learn on. Sure, people can learn on 26″ wheels. All of us probably did. It’s about enabling people to feel confident, and you’ve all seen the information that shows that bigger wheels roll over things easier. Just look at fat bikes.
-Developing a new range of bikes, with all of the required tooling just to make them, let alone the R&D before even one of them rolls off a production line, is a massive expense. Then, for a company like us, you have to keep in mind that we have to make all of the associate Bontrager stuff, like tyres and tubes, to be able to accommodate yet another wheel size. The complete package is a very expensive proposition. And to use the dreaded ‘D’ word again, it takes at least 2-3 years to bring a product to the stage where it can even go into production. There are a ton of resources required to do that.

So there you have it. I’m sure that won’t satisfy everything, but I hope it sheds a bit of light on our take in the face of some shonky video editing.

So there you have it. I’m sure that won’t satisfy everything, but I hope it sheds a bit of light on our take in the face of some shonky video editing.

So you won’t be doing any more interviews with BikeRadar then?

EDIT….And as for Giant saying 26″ is dead?….i think they have managed to kill off the entire bike industry with this abomination, it’s even named the “REVOLT

True At least the Anyroad is kinda bonkers different, rather than just gash.

My comments about 27.5 separating itself from 26″ when you hit 140mm of travel: For the type of riding that a person would do that means they would choose a 140mm of travel or more, then what we’ve determined is that 27.5 wheels perform better than a 26″ in terms of speed and control.

For the love of god give us some real world data to back up your claim.

thisisnotaspoon – Member
Imagining some posters walking into their LBS

“I want a really low BB and slack head angle because that will make it more stable, but I want really small wheels to make it less stable”
I was wondering why me and all my mates were being flung off our bikes all the time….

Proper demo of 650b – Meh like 26″ really slightly more momentum offset by slightly more lag out of slow spots/tech climbs
Roll out on 29″ yah roll more oh corner wind it back up again… not really into my XC racing not that bothered.

For the love of god give us some real world data to back up your claim.

Don’t you worry your pretty little head about the details. Daddies got you 😈

For the love of god give us some real world data to back up your claim.

In what form or what would that data consist of?

Rene Wildhaber probably did some timed runs and went a bit quicker on the 650b. What more could you expect than something like that?

As the ‘Trek Lady’ said, 29″ is still faster 🙂

Is this the test where they roll the wheels down a ski jump and see which goes furthest

Well ok everything points to 29 being faster for what the majority of riders ride in the UK, but the wheels are not as strong and it dulls the ride. 26″ are stronger, more fun to ride etc etc.

27.5 is like 26″ but a new way to sell more bikes 🙂

Good on Trek lady for at least coming on to a forum and explaining her point of view to tiny weenie fraction of the population of people who buy mountain bikes.

It still comes down to the industry deciding that all people want to do is cover a distance off-road in the the least possible time, which for many of us is simply not true.

Great. First a dogshit video, now I-know-it-all JCL wades in harping bollocks.
Its going nowhere. Bin it.

Don’t be a player hater bro.

Rene Wildhaber probably did some timed runs and went a bit quicker on the 650b. What more could you expect than something like that?

Not just Rene, but also Shandro, Travis Brown, Tracy, and a host of other people in the development group. I’ll see if I can dig up the white paper and if it has any data in it on this subject, I’ll post it here.

It still comes down to the industry deciding that all people want to do is cover a distance off-road in the the least possible time, which for many of us is simply not true.

Although I do indicate that a lot of what we know about wheel size is about speed, in my defense I’ve also said loads about how ultimately it’s about what type of ride someone wants. That part is even in the video. And to be fair, lots of people do care about speed.

oldnick – Member
If that’s true about Orange I’m disappointed, I imagined that there was an element of service and backup available.
And given that the stuff is made by being folded and welded it wouldn’t kill them to run up a few more when they need to would it?

It’s just economics, everyone is curious about the new wheel size so why make 26″ frames that are going to gather dust, if the big wheel bubble bursts (like everyone said 29ers would) they can go backwards to 26″

26″ is fast, very fast and rock solid.
27.5″ is faster and more stable – a rocketship.
29’r felt slower when riding but was the fastest according to strava, felt a bit cumbersome on tighter sections but the speed it carried through other sections was astounding/made up for slower steering response on tighter sections.

He uses strava and i guess he’s got pretty much every section sewn up after riding the ripley (unless it’s the climbs)[/quote]

Could you please post the strava times then we can get a better idea of the difference.
Thanks.

With Orange I don’t think it’s the swap to 650b that bothers people, it’s the decision not to support existing customers. Annoying enough for your brand new frame to be “obsolete” the day after, for resale value etc, but doubly if you can’t get parts for it. There’s going to be a lot of this going around though- “My frame broke” “Here, have a replacement that none of your parts fit”

You could probably say that since Orange build in house it’d be easier for them to whip up parts than most of their competition but I don’t think it’s really fair to criticise them for that personally.

Bored by the whole debate.
I’m a luddite who doesn’t think there’s anything wrong with 26.

How many of you thought ‘these wheels really are too small for my style of riding’ before the bike companies thrust the ‘must have’ 29 on us? Now it’s the must-have ‘27.5’.

It’s all bollux – does it REALLY make THAT much difference?

Look in a STW mag from 2/3 years ago…there’s a Giant ad saying 29 is the nuts…look in the latest issues…there’s a Giant ad saying 27.5/650B is the nuts…to me (and a lot of others) it’s a load of marketing spin and shite! I work in advertising and I know with some nice pics and clever copy you can sell pretty much anything!

That’s my meaningful/less contribution – depending on what size wheels you have of course 😉

For me it’s pretty simple; my bikes with their 26″ wheels have been great and I’ve loved them since I owned them ( a good few years). Since the dawn of 29″ and 650b my 26″ bikes are still great and I still love them. I’m happy with that so I’m just going to continue riding my great bikes that I love and watch the industry scrabble around in a panic trying to develop more ways to convince us all that ‘whatever inch’ wheels are the future.

Worth commenting that we’ve hard a lot about speed, rolling etc.

We’ve heard a lot less about strength and stiffness/compliance

The mavic research was that a 29″ wheel built with the same materials as a 26″, was 10% heavier and 39% less stiff – one can only imagine that strength is affected in the same way (?)

so how much more prone to breakage/taco’ing are 650’s? if they’re selling them as the ‘enduro’ answer, its got to play a part – personally I don’t want my wheels to fold in half very easily.

Could you please post the strava times then we can get a better idea of the difference.
Thanks.

I dunno how to do that as i’m not a stava”ite” nor have i ever used it but do a search for mark wilcox, i’m sure you’ll find the strava uploads.

He’s totally disregarded the 650b/29’r debate before but he was the first to admit the larger wheel size does make a helluva difference on the trails….i dunno if he quite as far as stating “the trails come alive under the larger wheel size” 😀

He’s currently in Utah, Moab riding the slickrock and the new Captain Ahab trails with his 650b HDR with another customer on his XTR blinged Ibis HD160 ……I’m in the shop working on a glorious sunny Galloway day whilst attempting to resuscitate a near death 12yr old rockhopper hardrock that should really be put down but i’m gonna do my best and try and rescue it from the scrapheap, it’s someones pride and joy despite having 26″ wheels 😉

The mavic research was that a 29″ wheel built with the same materials as a 26″, was 10% heavier and 39% less stiff – one can only imagine that strength is affected in the same way (?)

Depends on the method of failure.

Faituge, maybe, it’s flexing more, but how often do rims (not spoke holes) fatigue, i’ve never seen one?

Being able to bend often helps things avoid breaking. Imagine landing a drop to flat, on a bike with a completely rigid wheel/tyre the deceleration is over a very short time period, giving very high peak forces. Add a big squashy wheel and tyre and the peak forces are much lower. A bit like rigid Vs suspension forks, I’ve cracked/bent far more rigid forks (2) than I have suspension (0) depite spending far more time on suspension forks.

It’s all bollux – does it REALLY make THAT much difference?

Look in a STW mag from 2/3 years ago…there’s a Giant ad saying 29 is the nuts…look in the latest issues…there’s a Giant ad saying 27.5/650B is the nuts…to me (and a lot of others) it’s a load of marketing spin and shite! I work in advertising and I know with some nice pics and clever copy you can sell pretty much anything!

That’s my meaningful/less contribution

Well at least the last bit’s potentialy correct. I’ve ridden 29ers almost exclusively the last 3 years, they’re different/better in pretty much every way, I’d proffer that an incremental size inbetween would be just that, an incremental improvement on 26″.

I reckon 650b will be like the Whyte 46 was to 150mm bikes. A crutch that encourages people to have a go with the safety net of not being too different (the 4″ setting). Give it a couple of years and the resitance to change will errode and everyone wil be back on big wheels. Appart from short arses.

What you lot really need (not me I’m like velvet covered-svelte) is a biking girdle.

Whoever makes one of those will clean up. Imagine the trail centres and bridleways suddenly full of buff-looking middle-aged men. No longer will walkers think ‘here comes another tubby clown-biked warrior’

For what is worth…
I just moved from 2012 5 spot (26) to a Burner(27.5).
Sadly the move did not transformed me into a god – although I can relax knowing that I wont have to worry about fork availability in 15 years time… The bike is lovely but I never found my last bike wanting.
I imagine for 90% of people on this forum its all bollocks.
To the 10% I salute you and cannot wait to hear how the additional footprint and roll ability has transformed your life.
🙂

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26 inches and proud of it.

26 inches and proud of it.

Give it a couple of years and the resitance to change will errode and everyone wil be back on big wheels. Appart from short arses.

and what is the average replacement timeframe? I suspect a lot more than 2 years! I know my current bike is 3.5years old and no plans to change, the one before was 3 when replaced, damaged and redundancy payout, but the one before was 10.

http://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bikemag.com%2Fgear%2Fexclusive-26-inch650b-death-match%25E2%2580%25A6with-puppets%2F&ei=8gJpUquDAuGb0QX34YCoDw&usg=AFQjCNGnNa_AGP4FvupXgs0irFzv1b9TpA&bvm=bv.55123115,d.d2k

although I can relax knowing that I wont have to worry about fork availability in 15 years time…

I wouldn’t be so sure. They’ll probably have decided 27.5 is rubbish by then and only 28.175 is the only way.

Look in a STW mag from 2/3 years ago…there’s a Giant ad saying 29 is the nuts…look in the latest issues…there’s a Giant ad saying 27.5/650B is the nuts

That video made it really clear (if it wasn’t before), with that comment from the bloke you’d really like to slap “29 wasn’t right for some markets” that when Giant say something is the best, what they actually mean is the best for their balance sheet. To be fair to Giant, they’re far from alone in that with this whole 27.5 debacle, just that they’re so much more brazen and unapologetic about it.

Strangely though, I reckon there’s a really good chance I will get a 650b wheel – just not on a bike (when I next buy an “ultimate bike I’ll never need to replace” it will almost certainly be a 29er, given I am interested in going as fast as possible).

so how much more prone to breakage/taco’ing are 650’s? if they’re selling them as the ‘enduro’ answer, its got to play a part – personally I don’t want my wheels to fold in half very easily.

Bear in mind that whilst the marketing machine is in full swing, the women’s enduro WC was won by a member of my club on a 29er, so it seems even significantly bigger wheels are strong enough.

Being able to bend often helps things avoid breaking. Imagine landing a drop to flat, on a bike with a completely rigid wheel/tyre the deceleration is over a very short time period, giving very high peak forces. Add a big squashy wheel and tyre and the peak forces are much lower. A bit like rigid Vs suspension forks, I’ve cracked/bent far more rigid forks (2) than I have suspension (0) depite spending far more time on suspension forks.

That is a very good point, except it doesn’t really work that way for wheels. Given that the failure mode for wheels under high load is mainly tacoing (which is the wheel equivalent of a beam buckling), then more flexible is definitely weaker, as it takes less load to take the wheel to the point at which it will collapse.

thisisnotaspoon,

I’ve ridden 29ers almost exclusively the last 3 years, they’re different/better in pretty much every way

I’m thinking that you should have added “for me and the type of riding I do” to that statement because it’s a gross generalisation and obviously not everyone’s experience.

You’ve really popped your old fella in a hornets nest there.

Comment should be taken in context of talking about tyre sizes .. and being ridden on some flowy / some tighter, trail-centre surfaces that I rode the other bikes on. Tried a fattie briefly on the same kind of trail. It is taking it too far ‘in general terms’ imo, but so is riding a 150mm FS bike in loads of places, or my rigid SS in the Peak. But if you ride everything on one bike, it happens.
I ain’t no hater. Especially of chubbers who are bigger than me.
‘Ducks’ : )

I ain’t no hater. Especially of chubbers who are bigger than me.

😀

Don’t be a player hater bro.

Player? You’re being played mate.

and what is the average replacement timeframe? I suspect a lot more than 2 years! I know my current bike is 3.5years old and no plans to change, the one before was 3 when replaced, damaged and redundancy payout, but the one before was 10.

Whether it’s 3 years or 10 years when you replace it, I reckon the common oppinion by then will be 29″ is better for nigh on all riding that involves actualy riding somewhere(i.e. not DJ, trials, or hucking). Just as it is now that 5″ is about right for an all round bike.

FWIW I probably buy a new (to me at least, they’re mostly cheep or s/h) bike or frame every year, but I have 3-4 bikes at any one time so on average probably keep each for 3-4 years. I don’t think of the current 26″ bikes will be replaced like for like when they break.

That is a very good point, except it doesn’t really work that way for wheels. Given that the failure mode for wheels under high load is mainly tacoing (which is the wheel equivalent of a beam buckling), then more flexible is definitely weaker, as it takes less load to take the wheel to the point at which it will collapse.

Maybe, but I’d counter that argument by saying that stiffness is lower, but the radius is greater and I’d hypothesise that the maxiumum deflection is greater both in terms of angle relative to the straight wheel as the bending is over a longer beam, and in displacemnt (longer beam through the same angle). So I think that it would take a greater force to reach the elastic limit of the wheel, even though it’s less stif to start with.

I’m thinking that you should have added “for me and the type of riding I do” to that statement because it’s a gross generalisation and obviously not everyone’s experience.

I’d add “IMO”, but I ride all over, and even on days when I pick a 26″ bike out of the shed (becuase it’s got more suspension and I’m off somehwere rocky for example), I think a 29er would be better, I just don’t own a suitable one.