This SNP rout…..

Actually, they kept the Seperate databases in place up until 2007 and in 2010 the SNP decided not to pay to update it…

SVR would raise about £300 million per penny, so that’s a potential billion quid a year less austerity.

Now, of course the big defence for not doing it is how much would it cost to get this up and running – what a good question…

Just remember how according to the SNP during the referendum campaign the set up costs for the entirety of an independent Scotland were just £200 million 😆

tbh I dunno, I’ve never looked all that much into it, I know it’s not a particularly widing ranging power though. That it’s never been used by any incumbent government is evidence that it’s never really been a well thought out power anyhow. tbh simply being able to raise or lower a simple rate is some way away from the type of tax reform that would be desireable to implement imo. I’d imagine for any powers to be useful you would need to be allowed to get alot more complex about it.

It’s not just about raising a few extra quid that is the aim.

ninfan – Member

😆

You regularly use the laughing emoticon at the end of your posts Z-11, a habit which along with your incoherent posts you seem to uniquely share with Chewwy.

Now it doesn’t appear to me to be the best way to influence people or win them over to your argument.

It’s almost as if point-scoring and taunting is the only thing which you can reasonably expect to achieve.

If so can I congratulate you on your realistic and self-critical appraisal of your own limited powers of persuasion.

I’m all for giving the Peoples Republic of Sturgikistan full fiscal autonomy and removing all state subsidy from south of the border then sitting back and hearing the squeals from the Scottish electorate when their taxes go up to pay for the socialist utopia they clearly have voted for. But perhaps I’m wrong and the fantasists on here may actually be right and the Scots will relish paying Scandinavian levels of tax for Scandinavian levels of benefits but we’ll never know unless we give it a try and the rest of the UK pull the plug on them.

Uponthedowns….now you’re talking my language.

When do the English get to vote on jettisoning Scotland?

I’m all for giving the Peoples Republic of Sturgikistan full fiscal autonomy and removing all state subsidy from south of the border then sitting back and hearing the squeals from the Scottish electorate when their taxes go up to pay for the socialist utopia they clearly have voted for.

The Guardian described Sturgeon’s support for full fiscal autonomy as an “eye-watering” blunder which “puts the SNP on the Tory side of a key devolution argument”. Quote :

Full fiscal autonomy means that what the Scottish government spends, the Scottish government raises. Apart from that, Ms Sturgeon’s government has no money, since it refuses to use its tax-raising powers. That’s why the SNP is already putting on the squeeze. Local councils are running into debt partly as the price of the SNP’s council tax freeze, which has greatly benefited the wealthiest. Scottish students are having to borrow at record levels as grants are reduced and tuition remains free, even to the rich. The NHS is enduring big funding shortfalls.

As the Institute for Fiscal Studies argues, fiscal autonomy also means that £7.6bn currently provided to Ms Sturgeon’s government by UK taxpayers would be switched off. All these gaps would either have to be made good by higher Scottish taxes or by deeper Scottish cuts. Scotland’s link with the UK pension system would be ended. And all at a time when the price of oil has collapsed.

There is no disputing that thousands of Scots have embraced the SNP in the hope that it represents a more dynamic and vernacular progressivism than Labour offers. But is this progressivism credible? To what degree is it frustrated separatism in progressive clothing?

The question facing Scottish voters in May is whether the hard facts and options square with the SNP rhetoric on full fiscal autonomy. Scottish Labour’s Jim Murphy said on Friday that it is a slogan that has collided with some truths. It is hard to disagree – or to overestimate the importance of the big call it poses. Progressive voters outside Scotland need Scots to get this big call right. But Scots themselves need it even more.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/apr/10/guardian-view-on-election-scotland-slogan-hit-facts

It’s rare for me to agree so strongly with a Guardian editorial but in this case I reckon they got it spot on. As did Labour in their criticism of the SNP’s lack of joined-up thinking.

Having said that I believe that the SNP’s wipe out of Labour in Scotland is the most positive aspect of the 2015 General Election.

But Scotland needs to move beyond emotive pleas of fairness and grasp reality. The SNP needs to put money where their rhetoric is. It needs to offer a real economic alternative to the failed neoliberal experiment. Something which up until now they have comprehensively failed to do, and I suspect that it is almost certainly beyond their grasp. They are ultimately a nationalist party selling dreams and not a great deal more imo.

It needs to offer a real economic alternative to the failed neoliberal experimen

How are they going to do that when they are fully paid up members? 😆

Hence my comment : I suspect that it is almost certainly beyond their grasp. They are ultimately a nationalist party selling dreams and not a great deal more imo.

Personally, I’ve absolutely no doubt in what they are, I never have been, they are a centrist party dangling a few bobbles.

They are still much preferable to the utterly incompetent excuse for a labour party, and a thousand times more palatable than the tories.

Roll of full fiscal autonomy(which is ultimately independence imo.)

But Scotland needs to move beyond emotive pleas of fairness and grasp reality. The SNP needs to put money where their rhetoric is.

We’ve come from different starting points and reached the same conclusion. I’d just rather the SNP use the Scottish voters’ money for their economic alternative rather than mine and the rest of the UK taxpayers. I’m prepared to concede they might make it work but without generating the economic base to pay for it (and please no cries of Maggie destroyed it- that’s ancient history now and besides no modern economy depends on making steel and digging coal except maybe Australia) for which I’ve not heard a coherent plan I rather think it will end in tears.

uponthedowns – Member
But Scotland needs to move beyond emotive pleas of fairness and grasp reality. The SNP needs to put money where their rhetoric is.
We’ve come from different starting points and reached the same conclusion. I’d just rather the SNP use the Scottish voters’ money for their economic alternative rather than mine and the rest of the UK taxpayers. I’m prepared to concede they might make it work but without generating the economic base to pay for it (and please no cries of Maggie destroyed it- that’s ancient history now and besides no modern economy depends on making steel and digging coal except maybe Australia) for which I’ve not heard a coherent plan I rather think it will end in tears.

The SNPs ultimate plan for independence will be incredibly simple imo, undercut England.

I’d just rather the SNP use the Scottish voters’ money for their economic alternative rather than mine and the rest of the UK taxpayers.

I disagree. Investing in Scotland would benefit the whole of the UK. Austerity, maintaining economic inequality, unaffordable housing, unemployment, spunking money on trident replacement, lack of training and opportunities for young people, privatisation, in work benefits, etc, is bad for the whole of the UK.

Neoliberalism has not delivered on the promises. Which is precisely why Scotland has firmly rejected the Conservatives, Labour, and the Liberal Democrats. And why voters in the rest of the UK are so thoroughly disillusioned with politics.

An alternative for Scotland would be a step forward for the rest of the UK.

ernie_lynch – Member

An alternative for Scotland would be a step forward for the rest of the UK.Do you think a real alternative is going to present itself in a neatly packaged white paper ready for the electorate to sign off on?

I don’t believe that is possible, there needs to be some upheaval and a new type of politics will need to form.

It’s interesting times coming up, as with the SNPs surge in popularity in memebership, and now votes, it’ll be a task to hold that all together, long term, short term they will(ie this westminster term), they are fairly disciplined.

But the most interesting thing for me is what opposition dynamic will develop at holyrood next year, as if Labour don’t understand that the connection to the UK party is toxic and break away, they are utterly finished. I would like to see an independent SLP develop though.

In that context, there are alot of seats up for grabs, but I personally would really like the Greens to fill that void as much as possible(if they can’t in this climate they are as well as chucking it.)

What that then gives Scotland is a completely different dynamic from westminsters centre right politics. We then have genuine centre Left politics to start to work with, and we can see what that develops.

I agree an alternative for Scotland is good for the UK or rUK, if a genuine alternative does present itself, the constitution won’t matter a jot.

It’s absurd to blame Scots for a Tory government when they voted for the SNP and the English/Welsh voted for the Tories. Even if every Scottish seat was Labour, the Tories would still have won.

The test of the SNP is what they do with their seats, they can claim to represent Scotland but Scotland is only a very small part of the UK with on 4 of the 46 million voters.

Do you think a real alternative is going to present itself in a neatly packaged white paper ready for the electorate to sign off on?

You appear to have completely missed my point. I need to work on making myself clearer.

I wonder to what extent the televised leaders debate influenced the result.
She came across very well and as a party leader who’d give dave a hard time.

I wonder to what extent the televised leaders debate influenced the result.
She came across very well and as a party leader who’d give dave Ed a hard time

chickenman – Member
I believe Milliband had a fairly left wing agenda when he was made party leader.

No really.

He would IMO have been better sticking to anti austerity policies with the idea of Britain spending it’s way out of recession; investment in jobs, industry + services, more jobs, more tax receipts etc…Britain does stand alone a bit in the world with the belief that cutting spending is going to improve your economy.

So are we spending more than we earn at the moment or the other way round? How about the socialists in Brazil just for starters?

Instead, Ed tried to be the party that cut spending but in a “nicer” way than the Tories.
Scottish voters could vote for a party that has competent politicians with credible left wing intentions. I don’t get any sense of a “surge in nationalism” in Scotland, just people fed up with 36 years of Adam Smith Institute economics.

And so voted for the only party seriously proposing ASI policies during the referendum debate. Have we airbrushed the idea of no lender of last resort. And a party that wants a corporation tax war with rUK. So left wing??

And not a smiley in sight in the original post!!! 😯

Have we airbrushed the idea of no lender of last resort. And a party that wants a corporation tax war with rUK. So left wing??

Did you miss the result of the referendum? You been asleep?

No, it was noted with relief and confirmation that Scots can see through BS. And the answer to the question?

Sorry forgot to mention the SNP mantra – the end justifies the means even if that is proposing policies right out of the Adam Smith Insitutitues handbook of more radical options. As the great, late Bill McLaren would have said, they will be celebrating down in Kirkaldy with that one!

11,334,920 – Votes for Conservative
4,094,784 – Total Scottish electorate

So are we spending more than we earn at the moment or the other way round?

We all know the answer to this and its a specious question.
You seem to be arguing/suggesting that the government is not tightening the belt and reducing spending in many areas. The fact we have not broken even yet does not mean there has not been, with more to come, across the board departmental cuts that folk call, fairly and accurately, austerity.

That you then go on to mock AS for his spin is somewhat ironic.

I have to hand it to the SNP for convincing the Scottish electorate that “neoliberalism” south of the border is not delivering for Scotland when those governments send many billions in support every year. They’ve managed to win the argument that all Scotland woes are due to Westminster mismanagement not least with regard to “Scotland’s oil” and gloss over their own record at Holyrood

@cloudnine, as I have posted before I think Milliband and Labour where the big losers vs Sturgeon on that TV debate, she made it quite clear who would be wearing the trousers in any coalition. It’s my view that really helped the Tories South of the border.

I have to hand it to the SNP Tories for convincing the Scottish english electorate that “neoliberalism” south of the border is not delivering for Scotland when those governments send many billions in support every year. labour ruined the economy and cannot be trusted and the SNP would bully them and destroy the Union. They’ve managed to win the argument that all Scotland the UK’s woes are due to Westminster labour mismanagement not least with regard to “Scotland’s oil” economy and gloss over their own record at Holyrood in regulating the financial markets and agreeing to match labour spending plans

Its what politicians do demonise the opposition, largely with lies or half truths if we are being kind, and blame them for everything. We all know the reality is far more complicated that this

Which party lied the most depends on your own political persuasion rather than reality

I think Milliband and Labour where the big losers vs Sturgeon on that TV debate, she made it quite clear who would be wearing the trousers in any coalition. It’s my view that really helped the Tories South of the border.

I wonder what that says about the English psyche. England seems to be becoming a scared and angry place, turning more and more in on itself. Depressing to watch.

Anyway, have we done this pic yet?

That look 😀

England seems to be becoming a scared and angry place, turning more and more in on itself

Did the English nationalist party sweep the board there then?

@jambalaya – I don’t think that’s why people in Scotland voted for the SNP on Thursday. You can call their policies progressive, left-wing or social-democratic but I think the SNP are just reflecting how Scottish people feel about themselves. England is moving to the right, Scotland isn’t.

Did a nationalist party sweep the board there then?

Pretty much – the two parties standing on an anti-SNP, English nationalist agenda (UKIP and Tory) got a similar vote share in England as the SNP did in Scotland.

Did a nationalist party sweep the board there then?

Yes. The Tories are much more an English nationalist party than the SNP are a Scottish one. More than that, many people who voted SNP are not nationalists.

@cloudnine, as I have posted before I think Milliband and Labour where the big losers vs Sturgeon on that TV debate, she made it quite clear who would be wearing the trousers in any coalition. It’s my view that really helped the Tories South of the border.

This was basically the point of my OP.

Why would England want to be governed by a collation that would be controlled a Nationalist party of another Country? It’s not about the fact that the SNP are left wing, if they were a popular right wing Nationalist party who were going to prop up a weak Tory result, then I believe the response would of been a labour win.

er what that says about the English psyche. England seems to be becoming a scared and angry place, turning more and more in on itself. Depressing to watch.

You seem to have England and Scotland mixed up 😕

They’ve managed to win the argument that all Scotland woes are due to Westminster mismanagement not least with regard to “Scotland’s oil” and gloss over their own record at Holyrood

This is complete pish. It’s tedious nonsense, this thinly veiled suggestion that the SNP’s platform consists of shouting “English bastids” over and over again.

You seem to have England and Scotland mixed up

Well, I live in Scotland and I’m guessing you’re in England, so probably both our views are skewed.

However:

The EU: England voted strongly for anti-EU parties, Scotland strongly for a pro-EU party.

Immigrants: England voted for parties that demonise immigrants, Scotland for a party that supports them and wants more.

Welfare: England voted for parties that want to implement yet more massive cuts affecting the poorest (they’ve already started), Scotland voted for a party that whats to reverse them and is already trying to in Scotland.

Trident: England voted for a party that wants to spend £100bn building weapons of mass destruction to threaten other countries, Scotland voted for a party that wants to scrap them.

Human rights: England voted for a party that’s going to scrap the Human Rights Act, Scotland for a party that supports the HRA.

I could go on, but I think that proves my point.

More importantly, though the Union might still exist on paper, it’s definitely gone in people’s heads.

What’s going to be interesting is that, for the first time, there’s going to be an opposition party at Westminster who haven’t just been defeated.

More importantly, though the Union might still exist on paper, it’s definitely gone in people’s heads

Seems weird for people are not nationalists to quote an earlier poster. Sounds more like a nation turning more and more in on itself. Depressing to watch. 😕

What’s going to be interesting is that, for the first time, there’s going to be an opposition party at Westminster who haven’t just been defeated.

Not counting the lib dems in 2005.

Immigrants: England voted for parties that demonise immigrants, Scotland for a party that supports them and wants more.

Bollocks.

England is far more diverse than Scotland. You have no significant number of immigrants. Wait until Central Scotland gets a load more.
There are parts of England where people are greatly affected by mass immigration, to deny that these areas do not have issues and to ignore them is the problem that causes support for the likes of UKIP.

Do you really believe Trident was a key issue for the SNP voters?

The EU: England voted strongly for anti-EU parties, Scotland strongly for a pro-EU party.

Scotland voted for a party that wants to leave one Union and join another. Despite the fact that this may not be possible.

The SNP won on the back of a feeling that they would be able to control Westminster, get another referendum and leave the Union on very favorable terms.

I could go on but this going over the same old stuff.

Bollocks.

England is far more diverse than Scotland. You have no significant number of immigrants. Wait until Central Scotland gets a load more.

Then maybe things will change, but for the moment at least I’m correct.

Do you really believe Trident was a key issue for the SNP voters?

I think it was one important issue, yes.