This 'Raoul Moat is a legend' thing on facebook etc

Every society has scumbags that hate authority, I'm afraid.

The only real way to get rid of (many of) them is to make us all wealthy and happy.

Um, it's not like there is any tradition of anti (establishment)-heros in the world, is it?

Robin Hood.
Ned Kelly.
…and lots of others that I can't think of..

confused. How is Ned Kelly a hero?

Is Raoul a anti-establishment hero for giving the innocent bullets?

It's him saying he's going to take down the police that everyone loves, best if we just ignore the whole shooting his missus thing.

Edward "Ned" Kelly (June 1854/June 1855 – 11 November 1880)[1] was an Irish-Australian bushranger, and, to some, a folk hero for his defiance of the colonial authorities

One major category of folk hero is the defender of the common people against the oppression or corruption of the established power structure. Members of this category of folk hero often, but not necessarily, live outside the law in some way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folk_heroes

Seems like Moat had some tough life experiences, but when you are so damaged and end up endangering others like this, the outcome was the right one. I don't think someone like this can be rehabilitated and why waste money on trials and a lifetime of imprisonment? 😈

After shooting a policeman, we know the force will pull out all the stops to make an exmaple of him (which of course they did). I think this is right seeing as they constantly have to deal with extremely violent people and when they are mostly unarmed. The offenders get away with it all too often and this gives a green light to them and other would be offenders to just cause further trouble.

I'm sure they could have handled the siege so the guy didn't shoot himself, but i spoke to a retired officer a few weeks ago. His attiude about tackling violent people was that, as he got older, he learned not to be the one who came away injured. Actually, he is really decent bloke who is not arrogant, or one to throw his weight around. The police acted to protect themselves and the public. They had been given the run around for several days with the world's media breathing down their necks, the pressure on them to prevent further injury to the public must have been immense.

I am well aware that some coppers are bad news, but i think in the main, they are decent people trying to do a difficult job.

Our society is now ridden with a considerable underclass of uneducated angry thugs, who's parents are/were useless. This is costing Britain a fortune.

In my view, all of this came about because of the progressive thinkers of the 60's laying way to a permissive society. The net result is that we now have generations of people who simply shouldn't have the freedoms they enjoy and who are lost. They have no self-confidence and poor social skills and are being sheltered from the harsh realities of life by a benefit system that gives them just enough to survive. They are scared to get a job because they may loose their social security, but can exist without having to get up and do a day's work.

It's not entirely their fault – unchecked immigration has seriously affected their chances to get a job and to lead a peaceful rewarding life. The media are always bashing UK workers for their attitude etc. Some of this is justified and if you consider how poorly paid some jobs are, you can see how a working family can struggle to keep a roof over their heads and bring up a family. If the main breadwinner could go off to another country in Europe and earn five times what they make at home, they would. I'm sure they would then have a different attitude!

I think one solution going forward is for schools to try to intervene when they see the signs of abuse. To correct any anti-social behaviour patterns setting in, to stop these children progressing to becoming yet another statistic. My wife is a teacher and has dealt with a lot of cases, but gets very frustrated because she finds the other agencies don't communicate very well. She has been involved in a project to bring these together, but sadly, the school is often left to try and sort things out.

It takes a whole community to sort out these issues as well as social workers, police, doctors, so teachers alone can't be held responsible. Why should these public sector people have to be dealing with issues which are really the responsibilies of the parents? The situation is bonkers and hugely expensive!

Basically, the country needs a cultural a reset.

I have no idea what the solution is!

Have you?

I have no idea what the solution is!

Have you?

as a start; stop reading the daily mail.

spongebob im not sure i agree that immigration is the reason why some people choose a life of low level crime and government hand outs over work
blaming immigrants is lazy and smacks of just sheepishly repeating what youve seen in the red tops/hate mail

having done a fair bit of factory work in my summer hols my fellow employees broke down into 2 obvious categories, those who just wanted a job to get on with their life as best they can even on minimum wage, usually means maximum possible overtime
and those who just wanted to p!ss about all the time
the kind of guys who would do their utmost best to avoid doing any actual work and half-inch anything they thought they could get away with, they would do this for a few weeks before they turned up to work high one too many times or just not at all or got caught stealing or whatever it was, these were the guys that would badmouth the police and the government etc etc

I'm sure they could have handled the siege so the guy didn't shoot himself

Go on then, explain away…..

think one solution going forward is for schools to try to intervene when they see the signs of abuse. To correct any anti-social behaviour patterns setting in, to stop these children progressing to becoming yet another statistic. My wife is a teacher and has dealt with a lot of cases, but gets very frustrated because she finds the other agencies don't communicate very well. She has been involved in a project to bring these together, but sadly, the school is often left to try and sort things out

A good point.

I'm sure they could have handled the siege so the guy didn't shoot himself

That would've been a shame.

That would've been a shame.

+1

…even though we are right and they are tools

🙂 nice one.

theres some people with pretty fecked up values (and grasp of english) on those pages

Spongebob – you seem to be advocating a disciplinarian society. This never works. Largely because not everyone shares the views of those doing the disciplining.

IMO an inquest isn't worth the price of a stamp in his case, just my opinion.
Just another bloke with a grievance and a gun and a taste for murdering unarmed innocents.
Those facebook morons must love Hamilton and Bird.

But people like this have always existed; Oliver Twist anyone? Deportation for nicking a loaf of bread?

To blame it on 'permissive society' is as much a cop out as anything else. If he had gone to a public school then on to university, if any of the people we are so keen to condemn had had the same chances as rich kids get, the story would be different.

In many ways, it's wholly predictable that people end up like Raoul, the surprise is that there aren't many more of them.

Although it might make Spongebob roll his eyes, it's a feature of capitalism; some folk get rich and use their riches to maintain a position in society, but in order for that to happen, some folk get dumped on. Global economies mean that unskilled work goes to the lowest bidder, leaving post-industrial areas and unemployment and aspirations that slowly leak away..

I'd be interested to read about his upbringing. I assume he was abused? Mine wasn't too shiney. Single mum in the early sixties, grandparents had to step in to avoid me being shipped out to Oz, actually labeled a bastard by my school and teachers, was shaking hands with a convicted killer by the time I was 12. My uncles and cousins were all in the 'Merchant Navy' i.e prison etc etc. Pretty normal for kids my age in London back then.

Prime Ministers Questions:

1215 The PM says the late Raoul Moat was a "callous murderer" and that there should be no sympathy for him.

David has spoken. The end.

100!

Big (half) sister speaks too!

Although it might make Spongebob roll his eyes, it's a feature of capitalism

Its fatchers falt init!

1215 The PM says the late Raoul Moat was a "callous murderer" and that there should be no sympathy for him.

Blimey, almost makes me wish I'd voted for the tw*t.

LHS – Member
David has spoken. The end.

LHS – Member
as a national leader / potential prime minister, I hate Cameron with an unexplicable vengence and don't want to see him in charge.

good old david, eh? 🙄

Oh I knew this would descend into petty bickering about individual's political presuasions! How predictable STW is!

So let's do nothing and watch more people get abused, murdered etc.

BTW. I don't read the Daily Mail. It's a comic, no better than the Socialist Worker, the Daily Mirror, the Sun, or the Guardian! Newspapers like this are full of twaddle in the main.

I'm sure they could have handled the siege so the guy didn't shoot himself

Go on then, explain away…..

I heard the guy was surrounded by a bunch of armed police who were shouting at him. As I have said, I think he got his just deserts, but what if the police hadn't shouted? What if they backed off and quietly ring-fenced the scene and left one man to do all the talking in a calm environment? It may have taken another day or two to bring the situation to a less depressing conclusion (the man was a father remember). I feel sorry for the child, but Moat asked for it, big time! I guess that makes me critical aof the police. I didn't intend this, it was just a thought, but i'm sure this guy would have only gone on to cause more trouble down the line. It was a pressure situation and hindsight is always a wonderful thing!

I am not advocating a disciplinarian society! I do however think we should instill some traditional values, like; hard work, thrift, personal responsibility, courtesy, friendliness, goodwill to our neighbours and generally a little bit of respect for all. I mean everyone, even the "look at me" types who flaunt their material possessions which they have bought on credit. Who have no regard to what effect this has on others. Or perhaps they are typical competitve passive aggressive types who like rubbing people's noses in it "look at me, aren't I better than you".

Or is that too right wing for you?

Capitalism has it's issues, just like socialism does. Shame we can't work out an alternative without being politically polarised!

Flatboy, Christ your like some kind of stalker. I feel violated.

Not sure what your point is mind..

Well it's all systems go for my plan to set up the Roaul Moat Nature Trail, paying homage to his stint on the run linking up his crime scenes, camps and hide outs and ending on the tranquil river bank. Looks like I have a customer base 🙂

Seems like Moat had some tough life experiences

I suppose you will have facebook sites like that for as long as you let Jeremy Kyles guests have an internet connection.

LHS – Member
Flatboy, Christ your like some kind of stalker. I feel violated.

Not sure what your point is mind..

i was interested to see what other fascist views you had expressed, besides your BNP penal colony. just to confirm whether I was justified in assuming you to be an ignorant reactionary.

There is a class of people who sail close to the wind – small time crime to top up benefits and the likes. We are short of the jobs at the moment, but this has been a problem for years. There are serious barriers to these people becoming part of wider society – the benefits system / job centre doesn't work well, and there's an entire parallel criminal economy. Even on a non-criminal level, people who spend their lives on benefits tend not to mix with people who work, and the cultures diverge.

If your social life is full of small time criminals and fraudsters, it's hardly surprising that there's a tendency to dislike the police.

@theflatboy – ffs stop typing.

I don't really think Spongebob was advocating anything much more than we need to do some thinking about how our society is going. He posited a couple of ideas but also wound up by saying I don't know the answer. Nice and open minded of people to not bother reading what he wrote and then jump on him. We have drifted in an unhealthy direction in many areas for some decades now and we are seeing the fruit of that. And it will no doubt take some time to correct / reset that if we can be bothered.

With the Moat thing it was never going to end "happily" once he'd shot a policeman. With the ex, her new fella and the policeman he will have known that he would get nothing less than prison for the rest of his productive life so it was obvuous he was either going to get shot by the police or would take his own life. The whole saga is a sorry and senseless waste of life.

he will have known that he would get nothing less than prison for the rest of his productive life

bollox, Gazza said he'd get 12, out in 6. and he never lies.

productive life

❓

The suggestion by spongebob that the 60's created too many freedoms is quite ludicrous, no “freedoms” were created in the 60’s, it was the start of a period of sorting out some of the inequalities on society, i.e. oppression by race, sex, sexuality etc.
But its pretty clear to anyone that we are far more controlled by law and the state now than we were at the start of the 60’s (apart from a small narrow minded section of people who believe the past is a perfect utopia).

Has anybody here ever done anything wrong that they can judge others so easily? Easy to mock others when they are down.

Has anybody here ever done anything wrong that they can judge others so easily? Easy to mock others when they are down.

8/10

I'll check, but I'm reasonably confident that I've never shot anyone. 🙄 🙂

Has anybody here ever done anything wrong that they can judge others so easily? Easy to mock others when they are down.

The Facebook group people are "down"? I see…

@theflatboy – ffs stop typing

quite, but you can't stop the trolls.