the US and guns

I suspect that following the kids shooting that the news is focusing more on gun crime in the states.

But the shear numbers are sickening, how did the states get to the point where killing people is almost normal. I can see why some get guns to protect themselves, but doesn’t really explain they why it got to this point in the first place.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/10585365

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/10585357

Which is why I posted the ‘500 shot since the massacre’ post, to really show it just happens every day…

I’m not sure it got that way, I think other countries got better and they didn’t.

by the twisted logic of the gun lobby, every one should be armed from an early age– say kindergunclubs….

They have a whole different way of looking at things

No guns next door that I can grab and turn on the owners*? OK then, your house it is!

*which is often what happens.

There’s a report of on the news today of 2 firemen being shot in New York. By the NRA’s logic they obviously need to arm firemen as well so that they can defend themselves….

They’re all crazy-ape, bat shit mental! It’s that simple. Just thank The Lord you don’t live amongst the wilfully ignorant, morbidly obese, ordinance toting, god bothering, foetus worshiping half wits! It’s much safer here 😀

How is it sickening? The number pales into significance compared to places like Brazil where there are 100 gun deaths per day, in a country that is going to hold the Olympics soon.
TBH I don’t see what gun deaths in the US are to do with the U.K? It’s not as if they (yanks) are interested in the alcohol related deaths in Scotland or the smoking deaths in Spain? I’m more concerned with left turning lorry deaths in London or NHS cuts and the impact on healthcare.

Ive just rewatched Bowling for Columbine. Michael Moores answer ‘why’ is very interesting.

How is it sickening?

for a country that spends billions enforcing its ideas of democracy on the world hardly setting a good role model.

TBH I don’t see what gun deaths in the US are to do with the U.K? It’s not as if they (yanks) are interested in the alcohol related deaths in Scotland

considering the amount of money the US ploughed into northern ireland during the troubles i guess that is a good thing!

Well as an outward looking nation we can take interest in other countries without invading them. It’s also worth knowing that behind the headline and moral outrage is a very unhealthy stat on gun use.

How can intelligent people cling to a “right” ratified in 1788 to bear arms?

The firepower readily available to an individual today would have been the equivilant to a regiment of fighting men then.

If you research the NRA and how they disseminate mis information against any advocates of gun control is truly staggering. They have run several advertising campaigns against law inforcement officers who have called for gun control. The NRA has an annual budget of $200 million and feeds people’s fears to drive their profits and ideology.

For the avoidance of doubt the NRA are calling for armed guards in schools. The reluctance of a professional police officer to draw their weapon, let alone discharge that weapon is immense. The chances of innocent casualties are high as proved in the Empire shooting earlier this year. The police killed a murderer but NINE bystanders were injured by police gun fire. So armed guards in schools? Maybe flak jackets and helmets for children next.

The issues raised exceed the culpability of the NRA and illuminate wider ranging and more intangible issues rather than one organisation selling fear and death to their own countrymen.

It’s the logic of a mad man. The assassin who shot the wrong Beatle justified his actions by the following statement. ” the Beatles changed the world and I changed the Beatles”.

No point in raising an intelligent argument on that basis then

How is it sickening?

Gun deaths per 100,000 2011

Brazil: 19.01
USA: 10.2

So Brazil might have double the rate, but then:

UK: 0.25
Chilie: 0.06
Ireland: 1

and

Mexico: 11.14

Still think the USA’s rate isn’t sickening?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

Also I think the USA has a higher rate of Alcohol related deaths than the UK too, not sure how much Scotland would be on it’s own though…

Also alcohol/smoking/bad eating deaths tend to hit those doing it (not exclusively but most) where as gun crime tends to hit other people. It’s a point where the US should feel shame from the rest of the world, just as it tries to impose on other countries.

In the end of the day massive pick up trucks country music and high gun deaths are not a great legacy

The majority look to be suicide ! Jamaica dont look too safe !
The majority of homicides will be carried out by criminals, who just like all criminals dont care about the legality of their weapons, did our gun control have any effect on dale cregan.

I hadn’t realised gun crime and gun related death was quite so high in Brazil. So, I had a quick read of the Wiki Article on gun politics in Brazil.

I was quite saddened by this quote though when reading about the 2005 gun control referendum held there:

The referendum was the first time the US-based NRA involved itself prominently in pushing its pro-gun agenda in a major country and was successful in influencing the outcome of a national referendum.

Still think the USA’s rate isn’t sickening?

It’s as sickening as any other needless loss of life, which is kind of my point. 🙄

All sorts of things can cause that be they fiscal policy, wilful intent, act of god or orchestrated genocide with political/religious blessing. Just not all of them elicit such a response on social media or the mainstream press.

TBH I don’t see what gun deaths in the US are to do with the U.K? It’s not as if they (yanks) are interested in the alcohol related deaths in Scotland

Scottish culture doesn’t exactly have a massive worldwide influence on what is portrayed as “normal” or even “cool” in worldwide media though does it?

The majority look to be suicide

Look at the gun homicide rates then (same table):
USA: 3.7 per 100,000
UK: 0.04

did our gun control have any effect on dale cregan

How many Dale Cregans has it prevented? Looking at one incident doesn’t help see the bigger picture.
Some people die even though they wear seatbelts. Some people do heroin and live to 100.
Doesn’t mean controls on seatbelts or drugs are misguided.

Flip side I’ve a cousin who got laid off his job in the Gulf of Mexico and kept a roof above his and his family’s heads and kept them fed for just over a year until things improved by hunting with his rifle. For them it was a tool rather than some macho/crime preventing implement.

I am not disregarding the validity of gun control, the point I am making is that the majority of gun crime is carried out by criminals/recidivist criminals, gun control will have no bearing on the criminal, they will always be able to get hold of firearms, dale cregan is an evil criminal gun control does not apply to his kind.

But I doubt he uses an assault weapon to go hunting?

Point taken. It’s a stark contrast as to what’s culturally acceptable or not.

And people were bumping their gums about Dubai earlier today…

Russell96 – Member
Flip side I’ve a cousin who got laid off his job in the Gulf of Mexico and kept a roof above his and his family’s heads and kept them fed for just over a year until things improved by hunting with his rifle. For them it was a tool rather than some macho/crime preventing implement.

I’m assuming it wasn’t an automatic assault rifle or the like? Control doesn’t mean a ban it means removing some of the military grade hardware from the everyday situation.

the point I am making is that the majority of gun crime is carried out by criminals/recidivist criminals, gun control will have no bearing on the criminal, they will always be able to get hold of firearms

In the UK etc where the number of weapons is smaller thats probably true but where there are so many guns out there it’s much easier to move some from the legit to the non legit side. As above nobody needs an assault rifle or handgun for everyday life.

where there are so many guns out there it’s much easier to move some from the legit to the non legit side.

So surely introducing gun control now would be completely ineffective anyway?

Guess it depends on the definition of assault weapon if semi automatic with a magazine counts then yes he uses one (well did at the time I was last over) We had a discussion about the legality of it due to the size of the magazine and as it was an existing firearm it didn’t come under the ban in place for assault rifles.

Fair enough them rabbits mush have been big 🙂

Having grown up around guns, shooting and hunting I can see the need for weapons to do this and be legally held but most people here seem to manage with shotguns and non automatic weapons.

It ends up like trying to justify buying the 6l V8 pick up truck etc. just to say you have it and having it just because you can.

Back to the main thread though arming everyone isn’t a solution. More guns will not make america safer.

Scottish culture doesn’t exactly have a massive worldwide influence on what is portrayed as “normal” or even “cool” in worldwide media though does it?

Try telling a jock that. 🙄

Personally i find this quite saddening
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/21/india-rail-track-deaths_n_1290965.html

Why do we get so hung up about them across the pond ?

Why do we get so hung up about them across the pond ?

when was the last time the indian government waged a war costing 100s upon 1000s of civilian lives to introduce their ideals of railway management?

They’re all crazy-ape, bat shit mental! It’s that simple. Just thank The Lord you don’t live amongst the wilfully ignorant, morbidly obese, ordinance toting, god bothering, foetus worshiping half wits! It’s much safer here

Thanks for that sophisticated analysis. You might want to look up the difference between ordinance and ordnance before you start calling others ignorant, though. Same for Melvyn Bragg with the pickups, country and gun death comment.

The reason why it gets so much press is because it has lots of cheap footage and because it allows foreigners to have a sanctimonious rant about Americans. The Chinese school stabbings don’t get nearly as much coverage.

Why do we get so hung up about them across the pond ?

As above they seem ever so keen on implementing American on the world so they are ripe for a little spotlight back at them.

Death Penalty
Stupidly Lax Gun Laws
Shocking Environmental Record
Appalling Healthcare system for the poor
Abysmal Employee Rights
George W Bush & Lance Armstrong
Excessive use of Z
As Above Country and Western Music

Whats not to like about everyones favourite democracy and self proclaimed leaders of the free world

The number of guns in the US went up today as a lot are given as Christmas gifts! 😀

Guardian

Telegraph

I was in Wal-Mart last week. As I walked by the sporting goods depeartmet, I heard the guy there say that he was all sold out of .223 ammo. Also, you can’t find magazines for sale anywhere…

it allows foreigners to have a sanctimonious rant about Americans

That’s not a reason. That’s a consequence.

I did a little LOL for you though.

About 20-100yrs time the US will implode as a whole/nation due to their debt. Theyll end up in civil war. The irony.

Why do they always have to intervene in EVERYONES business? Not as a peacemaker but excessively violently?

A group of men are fighting in the street- step forward the Yank who shoots two of the men whilst a colleague simutaneously blows up the family homes of the men elsewhere.

The only nation on earth who actively kills people in the name of peace.

Thick ****.

hora – Member

About 20-100yrs time the US will implode as a whole/nation due to their debt. Theyll end up in civil war. The irony.

Why do they always have to intervene in EVERYONES business? Not as a peacemaker but excessively violently?

A group of men are fighting in the street- step forward the Yank who shoots two of the men whilst a colleague simutaneously blows up the family homes of the men elsewhere.

The only nation on earth who actively kills people in the name of peace.

Thick ****.

But they can send a man to the moon and back !

Why do they always have to intervene in EVERYONES business? Not as a peacemaker but excessively violently?

Yeah, the Bastards: (sorry, are we talking WW1 or WW2?)

More straw man points. Sheesh…

In the meantime, here’s a pic (not from the bible Zulu, there were no guns back then, but hey, it’s got Jesus in it for you).

Straw man? Where?

Perhaps you could look further than the Guardian editorial and try to consider why the US has a different mindset?

Twice in the last century, they have sat and watched civilised and developed Europe riven apart by warfare and invasion, millions murdered, and then drawn into defending the freedom of other people.

A huge proportion of the united states are within living memory of themselves or their parents fleeing from their home countries to escape oppressive and totalitarian governments, often with their extended families staying trapped behind, and hearing the tales of why they fled, Hell, a fair old proportion of americans were denied the same things by their own government on the basis of the colour of their skin – are you really surprised they are paranoid of government, and cling to the constitutional measure which guarantees them freedom from the thing they fled from?

Zulu-Eleven – Member

Twice in the last century, they have sat and watched civilised and developed Europe riven apart by warfare and invasion, millions murdered, and then drawn into defending the freedom of other people.

This is a good point and one us pious europeans would do well to remember, we seem to forget the atrocities ‘we’ commit on this side of the pond (ireland, balkans, chechnya, WW1 and WW2 etc)…..from our lofty perches its easy to comment on the fat, dumb yanks but our recent history isnt great if we’re honest.