The upside to government cuts!

No I don't. I think being a better driver is the pace to start.

Why not slow down? It's easy to see the safety benefits of this. By slow I mean the speed limit.

I'm not scared by cars, but I am scared by cars (or motorbikes) doing 140mph.

You'd be pretty fecked if there was a speed camera every 100 yards though!

Yep. Those speeds mentioned are hypothetical. Never been above 85 for more than 10 seconds, and it's not because I lack balls.

you are just using this to shoot me down as you haven't got any real justification.

I'm reacting to the words you type. I have nothing else to go on, do I? And when called to time on what you say, you change your tune: I just have a healthy fear of the damage they can do

And I'm the one that's talking balls? Okay. Right.

Well, imagine the same 180mph bike (Or car for that matter) falling into the hands someone that's scared of them.

Again your logic is failing here – what you mean is that you assume that someone scared of it cannot use it? I find them scary, I'm not phobic, I just think that they are dangerous, if you aren't afraid of danger then you are even more bloody dangerous that I first assumed.

Nope. Not at all. If you're scared by cars, you shouldn't be driving one.

I didn't say I was scared, I said I find them scary, ( scary when I think of the damage they could do to others, I still like you, feel that I personally am invincible) you haven't justified why this makes me a worse or better driver. Your argument fails because of your unstated major premise. Pretty transparent really.

if you aren't afraid of danger then you are even more bloody dangerous that I first assumed.

'spose it all depends on your particular definition of danger

I drive big cars, motorbikes, trucks & bicycles on [& off] the road, & don't in the least find them dangerous
I used to race motorbikes & scared my self on a daily basis but I didn't see it as overly dangerous

Now, those idiots that climb mountains & go down pot holes ?????

Pot holing is dangerous to yourself.

Driving like a nutter is dangerous TO OTHERS as well.

See the difference?

Pot holing is dangerous to yourself.

Driving like a nutter is dangerous TO OTHERS as well.

See the difference?

Bingo and this is what I find scary.

See the difference?

well, if you read what I said, I was referring to racing not seeming too dangerous to me

See the difference?

Why not slow down?

Becasue that's not the be all and end all of safety

It's easy to see the safety benefits of this. By slow I mean the speed limit.

There's plenty of benefits to come from other places too, but again, head in the sand time!

OK, so here's a link to start everyone off. Tell me when you've joined –

http://www.iam.org.uk/

To be fair, I reckon you'd be very, very surprised if you were a fly on my windscreen, so to speak. I'm a surprisingly steady driver most of the time. I don't bring the car into work anymore (Scooter/cycle for that) but when I did I was sitting at 60-65 down the dual carrigeway A331 into work. And I can only remember cruising at more than 75-ish once or twice since we bought our present car in February last year, and I spent 2 years before that driving the M4 twice a week, and that's littered with cameras. I do tend to pootle round in the car mostly these days, but I only drive it once a week at best usually

I think I might be sounding worse/faster (Delete as you see fit) than I really am…..

That Monster did need to be thrashed though, it has to be said.
IMO – Mechanical nirvana = Italian V-twin. I can't help it. Sorry.

Hello, my name's Peter and I'm a petrolhead-aholic. 😉

What if you're tooling along at 140mph, then suddenly you are overcome with instant diarrhoea? What do you do then? How will you keep control?

I think that's a scenario you've not considered. IE, you simply cannot expect the unexpected. Which is why you shouldn't speed.

I've just come back to China, after a 5 year leave of absence from the UK.
With all the speed cameras, the average speed cameras (that was new to me)
I found it an absolute pleasure to drive, and to cycle with British drivers.
It is a lot more safer, courteous and easier to ride with the traffic than it is here.
Wish they had billions more cameras here

Becasue that's not the be all and end all of safety

No, but it helps.

Just for clarification – I'm not arguing that THE ONLY THING we need to do is slow down and then we can drive as badly as we like cos it won't matter.

If you do indeed drive well then that's fine, and with clarification it sounds like you do. As I said, fast on an empty wide road is okay but those places are very few and far between.

Often something that looks safe isn't – and this is exactly how accidents happen.

For my part, I typically drive the speed limit because I know it makes me safer, helping to cover for my and anyone else's mistakes. The same reason I back out of parking spaces slowly and change lanes slowly, and don't take marginal overtaking opportunities. But more importantly, it teaches me to relax on the roads, and this is a big thing. People being angry and aggressive on the roads is a bad thing in my book.

I should look but, but I wonder if the same people who are anti enjoying driving riding a Morotrcycle in a spirted way are the same people who get really uptight about people building jumps on other peoples land and having some fun.

I fear STW has been infiltrated by ramblers 🙂

Bazzer

I should look but, but I wonder if the same people who are anti enjoying driving riding a Morotrcycle in a spirted way are the same people who get really uptight about people building jumps on other peoples land and having some fun.

You should check because that's not me, but then I cannot see how this latest missive of yours is interesting or constructive?

Again your logic is failing here – what you mean is that you assume that someone scared of it cannot use it

Sorry, that was a joke aimed at someone else. 🙂

I didn't say I was scared, I said I find them scary, ( scary when I think of the damage they could do to others, I still like you, feel that I personally am invincible) you haven't justified why this makes me a worse or better driver. Your argument fails because of your unstated major premise. Pretty transparent really.

OK, my train of thought went something like this.

If something is scary, then it scares you, so you're afraid of it. With nothing else to go on other than that I assume, in relation to driving, that you lack confidence or skill for some reason. And my opinion is that in that instance you should get off the roads or improve your driving though training. Simple. 🙂

I make no excuse, but I love driving, cars, bikes etc. I got this partly from my dad who is simply far and away the best driver (and ex-rally driver) I've ever sat next to. He's a ridiculously smooth driver, you hardly know you're moving. But he can use the car to it's fullest extent if he feels like it. I can vividly remember driving down a rough track to a campsite on holiday one year and asking him what would happen if we went faster. So he did. (He had a rear drive car at the time) and I spent a few brief seconds in the passenger seat of a sideways rally car as far as I was concerned. It's one of my earliest memories and it left a big mark on me. I don't expect anyone will understand that.

My other big influence is my driving instructor. I'd waited all my life to learn how to drive, I was the first at school to start (Birthday in October!) and there was NO WAY I was going to fail. So I sat and did exactly as I was told to do, and found it was easy, and that I learned fast (I'd spent many years watching how it was done!). My instructor was a bit of an 'old school' driver. He taught me to not stop at junctions etc unless it was necessary, he taught me to overtake slower cars on the road into Newark from home, he taught me to use a car and my right foot with confidence, but also how do drive smoothly and correctly. When I passed he gave me a card that had a bit of a motto on it, which I kept for many years, all about the responsibilities of driving and being in control of a lethal weapon, and he said I should do some advanced training too.

So, I think I tread a bit of a fine line between the smooth, easy speed (mostly within the limits) I've learned from my instructor and my dad, and the ability to use every single last bhp for my own gratification, if I feel like it, when the road goes quiet that I've learned from, err, um, the same two people!

🙂

EDIT

Can we get back to these crappy cameras again please? I'm so glad there'll be less of them, aren't you? 🙂

You should check because that's not me, but then I cannot see how this latest missive of yours is interesting or constructive?

Its not, it was meant to be entertaining hence the 🙂

I should look but, but I wonder if the same people who are anti enjoying driving riding a Morotrcycle in a spirted way are the same people who get really uptight about people building jumps on other peoples land and having some fun.

Not at all. I ride hard and jump and whatnot, but that doesn't endanger others. On tight singletrack where I can't see, I might slow down so that I don't hit any walkers or dogs or whatever.

And my opinion is that in that instance you should get off the roads or improve your driving though training

Doesn't work like that. I could be the most confident driver ever, but if someone misjudges a corner coming the other way and spins out into me, how does my confidence factor in?

Guns scare me when someone's waving one around not being careful. They don't however scare me when I've got one in my hand on a range.

For a number of years I used to do somewhere between 2000-3000 miles on a race track a year. Did loads of on the limit handling training etc. I have a reasonable amount of car control and I don't panic if the car does somthing unexpected. I don't beleive that most drivers have a clue what to do if things start to go wrong and the human panic reaction generaly leads them to do the wrong thing.

That said I dont think that gives me the right to drive like an idiot on the roads and my speed is generaly limited by by visibility and by others around me, but given the right curcumstances I dont believe it is always dangerous to exceed the speed limit. There are things that people do everyday in vehicles that are far more dangerous.

I generaly stick my cruise control on going through 30 and 40 limits as it is harder to see and process all the hazards in this sort of enviroment.

But I do have to say the closest I have come to having accidents on the road have not when I have been driving/riding fast, its been when my concentration levels have dropped. That generaly does not happen when doing 130MPH on a bike !!!!

Bazzer

People like you should be banned from the roads.

Erm have you rode with PP? Well I have back in the day when he had a proper two wheel ride. And he's good. He has good road positioning, good curves trajectories (how many of you still have chicken stripes). Like me he doesn't always stick to the speed limit. Like me he doesn't cross the double white line, or speed in town or residential area.

Then for the speed kills. I just rode the bike 450 two times in alpine road (see here). And do you know what was the most dangerous, well idiots who cant corner (getting out of a switchback on the far left of the road) and plonker who just stop in the middle of the road to look at the landscape. And guess what none of them would have been caught overspeeding.

EDIT: Exactly what bazzer says…

Juan – comprehension FAIL.

Really molgrips in what way? Please explain. Have you drove/ridden with PP?
IIRC you're the one that can't stand motorcycles and got scared by a rider overtaking you.

A question for you Mr molgrips

If you entered a roundabout at a speed under the limit, hit a patch of diesel etc or ice and your car started to slide, do you have the skill and experience (not just read what to do on the internet) to sort it out ?

If not why not ? do you not feel it is your responsibility to learn to do it ? I may one day save your life or someone elses.

Bazzer

Juan – you went out riding and saw two bad riders. You rode fast and didn't die. Do you think this indicates anything significant?

The point we're trying to make is that speed cuts safety margins. Not that it will kill you or anything stupid like that.

Bazzer – I can handle a car if that's what you're asking. I take a great deal of care to learn from my experiences and drive as well as I can. This includes skid handling and so on. I have thought about the 'advanced motorist' course, but that just looks cack. They've opened a driver training skidpan in Cardiff I think, and I might investigate that.

But what difference does that make? This is not a personal fight. so you won't win it by proving you're a better driver. Once again – speed cuts safety margins. You can't argue with that.

I make no excuse, but I love driving, cars, bikes etc. I got this partly from my dad who is simply far and away the best driver (and ex-rally driver) I've ever sat next to.

Wow you're admitting to someone else being better than you at something? Crikey.

Erm have you rode with PP?

No but him admitting to crashing I think it was 5 times with no involvement of other vehicles, along with riding at 130-odd miles an hour was enough for me. So you went riding with him once and didn't crash therefore everything he does is perfectly fine? Right.

But what difference does that make? This is not a personal fight. so you won't win it by proving you're a better driver. Once again – speed cuts safety margins. You can't argue with that

Sorry if it came across personal, what I was trying to get over was that training increases safety margins. If people were realy that bothered about safety they would slow down and get some decent training and more importantly practice in a safe enviroment.

If you are interested in this sort of thing you could do a lot worse than some time with Andy Walsh.

http://www.carlimits.com/

Bazzer

Juan – you went out riding and saw two bad riders. You rode fast and didn't die. Do you think this indicates anything significant?

Well I saw more than two trust me… It's is just that this two cases where close call. I could even said that 80% of the cars with a GB sticker on it where driving like complete morons ( doing 70km/h irrespective to the speed limit, sticking in the middle of the road, no road sense, not stop to car coming from the right, crossing the white lane, sudden changes with no mirrors check or no indicators plus they are the one stopping to look at the view, with Scandinavians)
Hum grum I fail to remember when did PP said he crash on a motor bike. On a mtb riding off road maybe. But on a motorbike I really can't remember to read him saying he crashed. Plus I rode more than once with him.

what I was trying to get over was that training increases safety margins.

Absolutely – no arguments there.

However slowing down also increases safety margins.

Bazzer – I can handle a car if that's what you're asking

Again not meant to be personal, but how do you know this ? where have you practiced again and again what happens when you step over the limit of grip your car has. I don't think the road is the place to do this and you really do need repetition to get it second nature.

Thing is I though I was a fast and pretty good driver before I got on a race track, turns out I needed a bit of practice 🙂

I also had a very fast crash at Quary corner at Castle Coombe, I know I would not have crashed with the skills I have now. I would have sacrificed exit speed but would have been in one peice.

Bazzer

I've driven in snow and ice, and on gravel and mud. Testing myself a bit within limits. I'm no expert, but I know a reasonable amount about what to do, and MTBing has taught me to keep my head and look for all the ways out in a crisis.

But yes – no expert, and a skidpan course would be very good.

But what's your point? I don't think I'm a great driver.

It scares the poop out of me on the road when these highly skilled automobilists with the supernatural ability to see round corners come charging past well in excess of the speed limit – especially when I am just about to dodge right to avoid a huge pothole.

I've driven in snow and ice, and on gravel and mud. Testing myself a bit within limits. I'm no expert, but I know a reasonable amount about what to do, and MTBing has taught me to keep my head and look for all the ways out in a crisis.

But yes – no expert, and a skidpan course would be very good.

But what's your point? I don't think I'm a great driver.

My point is that you are saying that people should change there behaviour to be safer on the road ie slowing down, I am saying you may want to make yourself safer by getting some decent training. You could then do both ans be twice as safe 🙂

Bazzer

Oh here we go again…

yep, more speed cameras please.

The only people who benefit from no speed cameras are young lads in micra's and middle aged blokes who think they can drive. For every one else it's a total win.

I am a brilliant driver on all kinds of surfaces, and in all kinds of cars. No matter what speed I drive at, on whatever road, I am always perfectly safe.

I am in fact The Stig. Yes it's me. It's true. I'm sick of hiding behind that helmet. From now on, the mask is off!

Ooh I feel so liberated, like running down the hight street totally naked.

My point is that you are saying that people should change there behaviour to be safer on the road ie slowing down

Yes

I am saying you may want to make yourself safer by getting some decent training

Also yes, quite obviously.

Still not sure here. Those two things are not incompatible.

've driven in snow and ice, and on gravel and mud. Testing myself a bit within limits. I'm no expert, but I know a reasonable amount about what to do, and MTBing has taught me to keep my head and look for all the ways out in a crisis.

But yes – no expert, and a skidpan course would be very good.

As would a course in how to pull in to a quarter mile gap instead of just staying in the overtaking lane when not actually overtaking anything then complaining about the nasty man on the motorbike who had the temerity to shake his head at your crap driving
<bloodpressureometer at the ready>

i dont really get why people think that excessive speed is not more dangerous. At one extreme if we were all stationary we would not crash so speed is always a factor in any crash. Clearly the faster you go the less reaction time you have and larger stopping distance and therefore the more likely you are to crash/fail to stop. Yes driving skill compensates but not to the extent that it reduces the momentum you have and the force required to stop you.

Again clearly you can be a bad /dangerous /unskilled driver without breaking the speed limits and some drivers need better training. You are still less likely to kill or be killed in a low speed crash.