The Tories – for those of us old enough to remember 1st hand

>The reason people laugh at Osbourne is that he stopped using gideon to try not to look so posh. As have others of the tories changed their used name to avoid looking so posh although some have refused. there is no particular difference in how James or Gordon are seen.

=""He was a pupil at Westminster School and later studied at New College, Oxford, where he read Philosophy, Politics and Economics, and during which time he was elected as President of the Oxford Union. In later life, Benn attempted to remove public references to his private education from Who's Who; in the 1975 edition his entry stated "Education—still in progress". In the 1976 edition, almost all details of his biography were omitted save for his name, jobs as a Member of Parliament and as a Government Minister, and address; the publishers confirmed that Benn had sent back his draft entry with everything else struck through.[5] In the 1977 edition, Benn's entry disappeared entirely.[6] In October 1973 he announced on BBC Radio that he wished to be known as "Mr Tony Benn" and his book Speeches from 1974 is credited to 'Tony Benn'.

Yes, one Anthony Neil Wedgwood Benn , formerly 2nd Viscount Stansgate.

The point about norway is that they had a large share in the north sea oil. during the 80s they spent their north sea oil on infrastructure and invested it for the future. We had / have more of the oil. Our oil bonanza was spent on paying people to do nothing for political dogma rather than supporting industry.

Without the oil money to spend in the 80s and selling off the assets of the country there would have been no "thatcher revolution" This money was wasted. We have nothing to show for it. we don't own our own infrastructure any more and we don't make stuff. Keeping the value of the pound artificially high thru the 80s ruined our industry.

The thacherite years ruined our economy. The worst crime tho was the waste of the oil money

I remember being forced to drink milk out of little bottles with a straw in that had sat around in the sun all morning, this would have been mid to late 70s.

Still can't face milk without adding Nesquik.

+1. Tho' eventually I made sure i was milk monitor and ensured my share was redistributed to people that wanted seconds.

I can't believe that people think that somehow one party or another will be able to steer the UK in an opposite direction to the ebbs and flows of the global economy that we are now, like it or not, wholly part of. There is little economic autonomy now left to national governments – most of it relates to how best they will protect the most vulnerable members of society. And here the choice is stark – Labour will try and the Conservatives won't try. Sadly, people are increasingly blind to the social contract (let alone old fashioned shit like communities and mutual support) and are only concerned with self-preservation and their own immediate gratification.

On an unrelated note: is Flasheart genuinely posh? I always thought he was an 80s arriviste. Standards have truly slipped! 😉

Anthony Neil Wedgwood Benn , formerly 2nd Viscount Stansgate.

Is this supposed to be a counter argument?

I think the point is being made that the current bunch of Tories are attempting a bit of surface polish (or scuffing). Tony Benn on the other hand has always appeared to me (despite whatever else he may be) to be sincere in his beliefs.

It's a bit like comparing a post-op transexual with a bunch of drag queens.

Sadly, people are increasingly blind to the social contract (let alone old fashioned shit like communities and mutual support) and are only concerned with self-preservation and their own immediate gratification.

Yup 🙁

Another legacy of Thatcher.

>Is this supposed to be a counter argument?

TJ was asserting that Tories were changing their names so as not to appear "posh". Just pointing out that it cuts both ways, I agree completely that Tony Benn is sincere in his beliefs but that's nothing to do with the point I was making 🙂

Personally I"m not sure that there is any value in looking to the financial records of parties of 20 years ago as some indicator of future success.

The world has changed beyond recognition and so have the personalities making the decisions. +1 HeathenWoods for pointing out that globalisation makes everything different, but also the internet, dwindling resources, population growth AND changing aspirations. 20 years ago many people didn't even have a car and only expected the NHS to treat them for serious conditions. Now, people are up in arms about marginal increases in fuel prices and their access to multiple IVF cycles and esoteric cancer drugs.

If the economic successes and failures of yesterday meant anything then Beijing would still be full of people on bicycles, IBM would be the biggest company in the world, Detroit would still be a functioning city and Iceland would be a place where cod comes from.

Paraphrasing the words of James Brown "Come on, like a sex machine"… no no, sorry not that James Brown (anyone worked out why he uses Gordon yet?)… I meant to say "GET REAL"

And BTW, I'll be voting Lib Dem.

On the tag "is hora really that thick"? No. I went to University and I didn't leave with 15grand of debt+.

If I was 18 now though I wouldn't be able to afford to go.

Go figure. Idiot.

TJ was asserting that Tories were changing their names so as not to appear "posh". Just pointing out that it cuts both ways, I agree completely that Tony Benn is sincere in his beliefs but that's nothing to do with the point I was making

And TJ is right, and you miss the point. The Tories want to appear not to be posh. Tony Benn wanted to actually not be posh. Otherwise he'd have been Tony Benn of the Conservative party.

Sorry double post (deleted)

Sorry mistaken post (ammended)

If I was 18 now though I wouldn't be able to afford to go.

But I'm sure you would have been ralaxed about that, taking life as it comes? 🙂

Ah yes. Probably would have gone over to the Balkans…

I was named after a famous general which my father served under – and he wasn't British.

Eisenhower?

Sadly, people are increasingly blind to the social contract (let alone old fashioned shit like communities and mutual support) and are only concerned with self-preservation and their own immediate gratification.

Yup

Another legacy of Thatcher.

Really? Most of the people I meet with that sort of attitude are as far removed from Thatcherism as it is possible to get. Are you really saying that it was entirely her fault or simply that she created the environment for an inherently greedy population to pursue their non-altruistic goals unchecked?

Ah yes. Probably would have gone over to the Balkans…

It was pretty good actually mate.

I was raised in a very working class family, but you know what i can't stand the Labour party.

People moan about the Tory party and the fact that they look after their own, you don't think Labour do or did that? They hide behind the social fairness card and i don't believe a word of it. My wife and i work very hard, ask for nothing from the state other than a safe and clean place to live and all i seem to see is my tax revenues and others like me being given away to 'less fortunate' people than us, how is that fair?

I don't see any issue in making people stand on their own two feet, and i wonder which party will try to make that happen, certainly not labour.

TJ, to think that Labour would not have wasted billions of £ if they were in power in the Thatcher years is a joke. The unions would have run riot and got bigger and bigger and choked the economy, maybe less so than the wasted oil money, but at least we dont have hugely powerful unions throwing their weight around.

The reason people laugh at Osbourne is that he stopped using gideon to try not to look so posh. As have others of the tories changed their used name to avoid looking so posh although some have refused. there is no particular difference in how James or Gordon are seen.

Given he changed his name at 13, that shows a remarkable prescience.

80s arriviste, if Flash is the man I think he is he was still at school in the 80s and has suffered periods of unemployment despite being soemthing of a specialist in jobs, too posh to claim the dole though.

I just love Browns manifesto (describing what he'll do- which are pretty basic ideas)…

why haven't you already done this or doing this now?!

Annunziata Rees-Mogg:

Heh! I'd giver her both barrels….

I'm sorry; that was crass and insulting, and there was absolutely no need for it. It won't happen again. 😳

ask for nothing from the state other than a safe and clean place to live

But don't forget sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, and fresh-water.

I don't see any issue in making people stand on their own two feet

Not everyone is capable of this tho'. What do you want to do with them? Workhouses? Begging? Take away social security and which safety net do you want to use? Or do you just let people fall? Seriously, I'd like to know because, in my eternal optimism, I'd love to believe that there is no one in this country who'd just leave people to rot.

I also smile to myself who say they come from post WWII working class backgrounds and don't see how the welfare state (healthcare and education) might just have contributed to their upward mobility. But then I guess actual history doesn't matter if you're sitting pretty now and just want the biggest slice of the pie you can get.

all i seem to see is my tax revenues and others like me being given away to 'less fortunate' people than us

Try looking harder.

yabba yabba. Can anyone sell me a road bike?

Irrespective of political leanings – this thread confirms one thing:
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The 80's Tory Gov't was the most divisive in living memory.
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There's no middle ground on this thread – no posters saying "it wasn't too bad", or "could have been better". Some have positive memories and respect the legacy of "improved" (ie forced) industrial relations, but many have very negative and deeply bitter memories…
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Quite telling I think
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Someone above posted about bitter old men – get over it and on with you lives… As someone who "came of age" in the mid 80s I strongly refute that assertion. When it comes to Thatcher's Govt I am still an angry young man.
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And relevence for the election – I hope that the electorate will be able to discern the true values of each party and choose accordingly.
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If they choose Red, they know what to expect – more of the same with added austerity.
If they choose Blue – do they know what values they are signing up to?
If they choose Orange – hopefully there will be the chance to reform the whole shoddy system…

Someone above posted about bitter old men – get over it and on with you lives

it was the same person who said

yabba yabba. Can anyone sell me a road bike?

That double quote-post doesnt show an example of a contrast though.

On the tag "is hora really that thick"? No. I went to University and I didn't leave with 15grand of debt+.

Lucky you.

You do have a tendency to post very ignorant, blinkered opinions on subjects you clearly know bugger all about, though, and subsequently make yourself look a plonker. As you've done here. Yet again.

What did you study at University? I'll wager it wasn't politics, history, sociology, etc…

"That double quote-post doesnt show an example of a contrast though."
It does, however, show that without doubt, you are the end of a bell.

It wasn't so much what you said, as when you said it.

Not everyone is capable of this tho'

why not? I'm not talking about the unfornuate few who CAN'T work, and of course they need to be protected, i'm talking about the thousands who can work and choose not to and live a reasonable life at the expense of others, how is that fair? I never mentioned taking away social security either, but i do feel the balance has tipped in the favour of certain types/groups of people feeling all to comfortable on social security and not looking for or taking work.

I also smile to myself who say they come from post WWII working class backgrounds and don't see how the welfare state (healthcare and education) might just have contributed to their upward mobility. But then I guess actual history doesn't matter if you're sitting pretty now and just want the biggest slice of the pie you can get.

How presumptious of you! My education was poor to say the least, left school with very little, had a stint at a local college and had to work hard to get to the point in life where i am now, and by no means is it plain sailing.

I don't think even the staunchest Tory here would object to spending on education and health but people do object to this sort of waste[/url] and people do object to tax evasion on a massive scale which costs the country far more than the social security fraud the media love expose. Labour are the masters of the fiscal niche that means them and their rich mates pay naff all tax. They could stop it but won't.

I'm old enough to remember what life in the 80s was like and it seems to vary from others. I remember this country being in a complete and total state after a supposedly enlightened Labour government. Unions were rampant and showing little regard for anything other than flexing their muscle and holding businesses to ransom. We needed to change and to move on. If Thatch (or is that Fatch?) as I believe she is affectionately known and the Tories hadn't come in I dread to think what state we would be in today as a nation. Do I believe they did everything right? Of course not. Did they make mistakes? Certainly. However, governments don't make people greedy or selfish (hello victim thinking or a refusal to accept that you have a personal responsibility for your life). That's what some people are like. So much hatred and vitriol from people against Thatcher and her govenment of the time seems to me to be rather disturbing as well as being quite pointless. Sure, I was not part of a mining community, and don't know what it was like to live in those communities, but I like to think there is a more balanced and realistic view of the times than we see covered here.

I don't understand- two of my comments taken out of context -both of which are asking people to head towards the light-hearted route.

Bikingcatastrophe, a well put balanced argument 🙂

this sort of waste

I'd like to see the real figures behind that sensationalist claptrap.

Par example:

£3m Wasted on Legal Aid to Criminal Politicians. Three Labour politicians have recently been accused of stealing £60,000. That’s not good. But what’s even less good is the fact that they aren’t hiring their own lawyers but instead are getting legal aid. It is expected that the total cost to taxpayers for their ongoing legal fees could be as much as £3mn.

I had a mini-rant on here a couple of weeks ago, about this, then realised I was being reactionary and naive. Those politicians are simply getting what every British Citizen has a legal right to. As for the '£3m wasted'; how do they get that figure? Just goes to show; this is little more than provocative knee-jerk bollocks.

"Sure, I was not part of a mining community, and don't know what it was like to live in those communities, but I like to think there is a more balanced and realistic view of the times than we see covered here."
It brought the best and the worst out in people. It made some people politically aware. It made some people struggle, at times literally, for their lives. Some mornings I didnt want to get out of bed, I didnt know if I'd end the day arrested or in hospital. Some days I'd look at my kids going without and think 'should I carry on with this?', then feel shame and guilt at just the thought of scabbing. It made communities closer, and then tore them apart for ever. I hated, and still hate, Thatcher, her government at the time, and what they did to my community.

so how much is the legal aid costing, do you know?

I don't understand- two of my comments taken out of context -both of which are asking people to head towards the light-hearted route.

You don't get it, do you? You're way, way out of your depth, yet you feel compelled to comment in spite of your clear ignorance on this subject. Then, when you've been exposed as a numpty, you then attempt to steer attention away by throwing in something frivolous and irreverent. Good tactic, I use it myself quite often. But then you go getting upset about someone calling you 'thick' (it was me, I won't hide behind the tag). 'Just a bit of light hearted fun', Hora… 😉

Don't take this the wrong way; I'm sure you're a very nice person, and probably a right laugh to be with. I've never seen any real malice or nastiness in what you post. But you do make yourself look a prat at times, let's be honest mate!

Personally, I steer clear of 'debates' like this, as I don't have the depth of knowledge on the matter as someone like Ernie, who is clearly very highly intelligent, informed and educated on subjects like this. I might throw in the odd provocative remark, but don't get sucked into a situation where I'll be torn to shreds by the hyenas…

EDIT: I've removed the tag. I'm sorry if it upset you.

but I like to think there is a more balanced and realistic view of the times than we see covered here.

How could there be a more balanced view than on a forum where every individual gets to contribute as much or as little as they want?