The mass of men live lives of quiet desperation ?

Ravingdave : ‘The fact that she goes out with friends goes to shows, goes for dinner, goes wild swimming’ implies that when she says you can do what you want she isn’t kidding, and that the reason you are feeling bad is an internal guilt feeling you have, and you don’t need to necessarily blame her.
Have you seen anyone professional about this? It’s a very common scenario, and fixing your perception of what’s required here might not be very difficult with assistance. But moaning on the internet isn’t going to change it for you.

Jeez. I’m not sure my ‘virtual hug’ or taking it back really has any effect on anybody.
Amazing this is the point picked up on when a poster has suggested a woman should stay home more and men need time away from the family because they are hunter gatherers.
The hug part was actually meant to be light hearted.
This thread just seems to have descended into a women are to blame for men’s unhappiness type of thread.
I thought the use of the word men in the title was purely to do with the quote from whoever it was who first said it but it would seem not.

Apologies if I’ve offended you The pilot .. please take the hug back !. Likewise to anyone else ..I would remove the line but seemingly can’t . It’s simply that I have observed human beings for nearly 60yrs now and come to the conclusion that both men and women have the potential to manipulate each other and often do . What I have noticed is that in my own experience women tend to be more skilled in this naturally! . I would suggest that the female sex developed that particular skill out of necessity ..to be able to control / persuade the unruly and physically more powerful and aggressive males who dominated most other areas of life except childcare . It’s not meant to be an insult and may well be incorrect . Perhaps I have come to that way of thinking as a result of several relationships where I noticed how skilful my girlfriends’ ( incl my now wife) were in getting their own way ..often by clever or stealthy means . Sulking is a classic example and yes both sexes do that. Men and women are equal but are also quite different generally speaking and I am happy that is the case!
My opinion is purely subjective of course but it makes sense that people with different strengths and weaknesses develop different skills to compensate .
I really don’t want to argue about this ..my intention is never to offend .. in fact the opposite . I actually prefer the company of women myself and have plenty of complaints about how many men behave ..including my self . At the end of the day we are all fallible human beings and my comment was clumsy ,perhaps incorrect and I shall try and avoid such territory in future as I need friends not arguments !
Finally ..just to add that my suggestion that she should stay at home and he go out was nothing to do with the evolution theory ..I suggested it as one or the other had to look after the kids (unless they both went out independently at the same time and hired a babysitter) and as it seemed she was getting more than her fair share of freedom she should perhaps give her husband a bit of free time by doing that.
I got the impression it was unfair and she was uncaring about that fact or his feelings . Again ..maybe I got it all wrong .
I’m not of the woke generation of mindset in fact sometimes get offended by people being offended by so many things ! I care about others ,always try to be fair ,kind and help when I can .

Mmm I agree we should not argue. Sorry for pouring fuel on.

@ravingdave you should just arrange a trip out. Get her to agree a date then do it. Don’t feel guilty, you have nothing to feel guilty about.

Madame likes here job, I haven’t worked for 20 years. If I feel like doing something I do it. she’s happy to see me go and happy to see me back. So this week her salary has paid for me to spend a day in Bordeaux, a day X-C skiing… . She goes horse riding with my help when she needs it, and always has a maintained MTB and waxed skis ready to go when she wishes. If anything needs doing, I do it. Life’s good. A partner to share it with makes it better. We’re both just back from swimming but swam in different lanes, you don’t have to hold hands all the time.

It’s ok @kaiser and nice of you to post back and you can have your hug back 😉
It’s just when you see woman and stay and home in a sentence, it causes a reaction!
But yeah, in this case, maybe it is appropriate. We only have one side of the story of course.

As for women being more naturally skilled at being manipulative, I really can’t go along with that. Maybe it’s the type of women you go for? (not meant to be offensive). Or maybe it’s conditioning from living in a patriarchal society. I dunno.

I really think men and women should think much longer and harder about getting married and having kids. It doesn’t seem to suit so many people but obviously there’s no going back once they are here. Having said that, I’m single and childless and pretty miserable myself!

Madame likes here job, I haven’t worked for 20 years. If I feel like doing something I do it. she’s happy to see me go and happy to see me back. So this week her salary has paid for me to spend a day in Bordeaux, a day X-C skiing

I’m so glad you have so much freedom to enjoy yourself Ed, that’s cheered me right up! 😆

Could well be the type of women I went for .. without even knowing it. We behave and think all sorts of things and presume
it’s what we ourselves choose… when the controller is nowhere to be seen .
I was with my wife for 19 yrs before we married…mainly to help her feel more secure (as I was worried our fairly good relationship might deteriorate as a result.. optimism eh !)
I do find it unreal that so many people are prepared to spend huge sums of money and promise to care for each other until death ..often in front of hundreds and within a year or 2 be preparing for divorce. Why make that promise when statistically you’ve got a 1 in 3 chance (or close)of hating each other within 24months.
Fallible people repeating mistakes again and again down the generations.
To be fair though ..some make it work well!
As for having children .. don’t get me started .. I’m still trying to find out how it’s done … Perhaps that’s why I’m feeling manipulated when my wife keeps saying are you coming up to bed !

You’ve got to laugh ..I suddenly wondered if I’d just written anything offensive again…. really! Hope not !

I have a strange sense of humour ..forgive me .

Presumably everyone knows Philip Larkin’s poem ?

I will post it up later just in case anyone hasn’t seen it as imho it’s just so true…but I am depressed or so I’m told!

the reason you are feeling bad is an internal guilt feeling you have, and you don’t need to necessarily blame her.
Have you seen anyone professional about this? It’s a very common scenario, and fixing your perception of what’s required here might not be very difficult with assistance

I can relate to that, especially when I was working full time and having less time with the wife and kids to start with.

Feel I need to say that when I said I knew men who had similar issues with their wives, it’s because none of my female friends have confided in me, but I’m sure the problem isn’t gender specific

I think that’s the most depressing part of it all, we make the same mistakes over and again. And pain is passed down through the generations.
I constantly went for the wrong kind of person. A series of dysfunctional relationships where it was always one pulling one way, one the other. I wonder how it might have been if I’d made better decisions. But I think when you’ve had such a sh*tty example from your early years, it’s hard to make good decisions or even know you’re not making good decisions.
Love the Philip Larkin poem. I came across it in in sixth form. Yep, that’s it, I thought.
I re-read your post now @kaiser and i see you didn’t even mention the word victim. Sorry! I jump straight in sometimes, it is the rage in me.

On a good note, me and doggo had a lovely walk today. We even managed to avoid the rain!

I’m in Costa with a flat white that’s not actually any better than the ones I make at home and it was nearly three quid. I do it to get out of the house, which I need to. I don’t get much human interaction that’s not via WebEx or Slack these days. But really it’s not the coffee, it’s the chance to look out of these big windows at the trees (and currently the intense hail), and to look at the people who are in here. My view of the trees and hail at the moment is partially obscured by a table of rather large youngsters wearing Cardiff Blues Rugby training kit, and I’m wondering if I should recognise any of them. They are playing cards, their deck has skulls and crossbones on the back. There’s another table behind them with two young women with a latte and a pot of tea, and laptops and notebooks, all closed. They seem to have come to do some work but have now given up and are chatting away pleasantly.

The other reason I come here (besides the cakes, which I do rather like, but I cannot have due to being too fat; I wish I were a rugby player then my weight would be a solid asset and I could eat til I’m full) is that I can walk here down the path through the woods. I can watch the spring springing, and I can climb down to the stream and watch it for a while.

Why am I typing all this out? Well, it’s mindful to think of all these things, and also to create sentences cheaply but efficiently knocked out like someone making trinkets to sell at a stall; but mainly it’s because I’m not interested in the work I’m obliged to be doing (due to being paid for it on trust) and my mind will do anything but that. Which leads to great stress, because I will be doing the work tonight when I should be sleeping or interacting with my family.

I know the feeling all to well .. procrastination. I thought I’d finally nailed it recently after being given ADHD medication and feeling great , more focused and ready to tackle anything. Disappointingly though despite the dosage being increased to the maximum , I now feel very little benefit. The brain chemistry boost was profound at first but 2 months in and the old ways have returned. The honeymoon period is over and everything is a tremendous challenge.
Re the mindfulness .. I’ve been writing notes to remind myself to notice things more .. like most peoe do apparently, rather than being present physically but lost in thought elsewhere and on permanent autopilot.
When I do get a period of focus though it’s such a relief from the internal dialogue I’m always aware of and inner peace seems closer.Remembering to be mindful is the real challenge though ..despite 30 yrs of on /off meditation practice and numerous other related practices.
I know it’s brain chemistry related as a really hard workout will always quite down the stream of thought but within a short period of time the river returns to distract me from the present moment.
Alcohol had the same effect .. gagging the chatterer for a while allowing me to see things as they really were rather than through distorted filters accompanied by thought.
The Buddha told us we see things not as THEY are but as WE are ..and he was right ime. Probably sounds a lot of woo woo to many people who’ve never needed or wanted to see what is really going on..you lucky buggers..hyperawareness is no fun !

The mods removed the Philip Larkin Poem btw presumably as , despite it being a much loved and famous piece, it contains a word that somebody somewhere might find offensive.
I always found it strange that people find certain words offensive simply because someone told them so probably at a young age.A bit like the unadulterated child who is told they are a certain religion and then spends the rest of their life defending it. I know that with swear words the reason people are often offended is for deeper reasons that I’m sure people already know and/or don’t really want me to elaborate on either ( my theory anyhow).

I am glad to see the thread did not descend into a man v woman thing. That was not my intent at all. My wife is an amazing woman a great thoughtful mum a hard worker, she just has a way of making me feel guilty about the things I like. Example:

Me: I’m going for a ride on Sunday morning
Her: but daughter has a party
Me: well you take her and the 2 boys
Her: I cannot do that as I want to get ready to see my parents later. Oh just go.

Now I feel guilty that my daughter either won’t get to go, will go with a stressed parent. So I suck it up and don’t go and swallow the issue. That is just the latest one, but it happens over and over again.

On the whole I have a huge amount to be thankful for. 3 gorgeous well behaved kids, a stable job, a career path set out. I need to focus on positives I think.

Thanks for that replied (both on here and in messages) I am terrible and confrontation and avoid at all costs. This will simmer away until I either accept my ‘lot’ in life or I have it out again…

That sounds like man v woman and in-laws.

When we were having lunch after swimming I asked Madame if she fancied a walk or a bike after work. “Bike” she replied. So at 5h there were two MTBs ready to go and we pottered off.

Focus on positives and work on positives. Work on things that are inclusive that all the family get something out of and things that you do as a couple. If you invest in those I suspect you’ll find your “you” time is less of an issue.

I’ve been very impressed with the YouTube channel by Einzelganger. As usual he had many videos on subjects loosely connected to this thread. Just listened to a discussion re the controversial subject of antinatalism from a compassionate viewpoint and must say it seems to have a certain validity ..just goes against the grain .
Listen if interested

Hi op I hope you are having a good time l may Eid wild garlic is out and I saw Two swallows so summer is here!
Went to shop and saw happy families outside the Mosque playing and laughing after their prayers. It made me feel lucky to have good neighbours.
Anyway I hope this book helps but feel free to ignore:
Awake ned brain by Lisa Miller.
Enfin a dr that gets it!
A wee cean/kin d bri an is that monti python enuff for the stw class of 22?

Best wishes op I rode hartland which is nice and even saw a lundy!?!

Sorry I am stupid but the thread reminds me of o level physics and the vmd Tri angle! I am as dense as a white boy!!!
I remember only because our female teacher had her daughter and her daughter s boyfriend in the class.
I still feel sorry for her!!!

Bandwidth well used

A broad band
How do you cook a hedgehog?
Askin Of?
A prick Lee question!

Awakened brain by Lisa Miller.

Actually that does sound rather interesting, I’m tempted.

Bandwidth well used

As opposed to your post?