The mass of men live lives of quiet desperation ?

I can identify with a lot of what you say op.
Ultimately I’m left feeling empty by life.

It could be worse, you could have moments of hope.

Made me laugh!

But them I am on SSRIs which definitely make the world a nicer place (for me anyway)…

@tjagain i think you’ve been treated unfairly by a couple of posters here. I read your contribution as the framing of a fairly simple and largely accessible approach to contentment. There will always be folk who experience barriers to nature and the outdoors but that doesn’t detract from the potential for a whole range of people.

Right or wrong.
Make a decision.
The road of life is paved with flat squirrels who couldn’t make a decision.

Can’t help with anything deep but ameliorate by keep going for the flow: plunging into cold seawater, riding over rough terrain, standing in a field, passionate (whatever), walking steeply, push yourself. Stop still and your demons will have a field day and you’ll be on here again.

Some more great contributions and shame about the bickering . As the OP .. I was asked 2 questions .. I am 58 and started thinking about this stuff decades ago .. didn’t know it was existential angst until recently .
I did so much when younger as a hedonist and world traveller I feel I kind of did many of the good things in life too much and too quickly and this was enabled by avoiding the rat race and having time and bit of money. I’m now stuck with regular anhedonia ,zero direction ,no security , poor mental health etc and as was mentioned earlier by another contributor .. I feel really stressed having no control.Some may say that the price I paid for the chains that I refused and as a result now have to do my time ( so as to speak ) .I thought the other day .. if I became homeless with my neuroses due to no rent money ..I could probably survive but really not sure I’d want to .
Liked the squirrels getting flattened analogy .

Those are wise words BillMC .. I may write that down .. thanks and so true.
I take cold showers everyday already and there is benefit. Also feel much better after my hilly rides which were regular until recently …what a coincidence eh . Yes doing that tough stuff gives your mind a rest rather than chewing over existence incessantly and coming on here to spread rumours that life may not be quite the dream it was promised ! Apologies if it has brought anyone down but talking is good ..or it is at least for me and I have no Ody who’d want to listen to that content or even give it a second thought ….I’m depressed right !

Interesting thread, and given my life ‘story’ here’s my thoughts…

In short in the last 2 years I’ve gone from professional career in IT with all the trimmings, to driving a lorry. And I am much happier in the latter. I ponder this a great deal.

I had a 20 year career in IT, and a 20 year marriage covering same period. In last 5 years I’ve lost both, by other peoples definition I lost ‘everything’. But in reality I regained my life.

The truth is I was desperately unhappy, the quiet desperation that I think Thoreau is talking about. At its worst I was hospitalised for severe depression. One morning I was riding on my bike to the train station to get the usual commuter to London, I realised I’d forgotten my security pass, it was raining, and it triggered a massive breakdown which took 5 years to recover from fully. A few years after that I was offered redundancy and I took it without hesitation and exited my IT career. About same time I left my wife. I had literally written out in a journal during recovery from my breakdown that I needed to burn everything down, simplify, re-start, if I was to salvage some happiness from the reamining years of my life.

Key to this was changing my relationship with stuff. I don’t need a new audi on the drive – nobody does. I don’t need to spend £50 on a kettle to boil water, £5k on a kitchen, £3k on bike, £500 on a device to scroll through shit on the internet. You do not need any of that.

I often here phrases like “well I have ‘everything’ I don’t understand why I am stil unhappy”. My simple answer to that is the ‘everything’ has been defined by others, and not you.

Today I deliver concrete and I love it. I work with people who I can call friends, I’ve never laughed so much in work, several of them ride bikes and push me on. I take my dog with me most days and he loves it. It takes me 5 mins to drive to work, or I can bike via the trails for as long as I need or want to. We have showers at work. I’m trusted, and valued, and left to get on with it. I am paid very well and actually have as much disposable income now as I did in my IT career. I have a partner who geuinely cares and is emotionally independent and capable, and very hard working (a teacher). We’ve worked all hours in last 2 years to build our own home.

Bottom line is I’ve never worked harder in my life, and I’ve never been happier.
I’m no longer judged at work for my choice of company car. I no longer kill time in an email factory, or fill a seat in another pointless meeting (the unsaid truth being we’re all there to pass time pretending to work). COrporate life is soulless, gutless, an empty existence – all of it.

I love work, I love getting home feeling like I’ve worked. I believe that’s what we’re supposed to be doing – work, striving, getting rough hands creating something of worth, and improving ours or other peoples lives. Nothing you can ‘buy’ will every replace that. No flourescent lit air conditionditioned office can replace that.

A long time ago society took your labour and replaced with tokens that you can use to ‘buy’ the basics to survive. That expanded to pointless shit you don’t need.
I belive true happiness comes from getting as close as you can to breaking that cycle.

Towards the end of my IT career I used to stand, detached, and look at the withered bodies and grey faces passing time, running down the clock, showing faces, pretending. Just enough to get through to the next month, justify the salary enough, to service the utter crap they were consuming – netflix, phone contracts, company cars, massive mortgages – the list goes on.

I live opposite someone still in that life – he probably pities me, but he’s a fool. I pity him trapped in his little rat race consumed by his obsession to one up the man next door.

Today I poured footings for an extension that someone was building on their house. A great conversation was had, bacon butties, coffee, and a totally unexpected £60 tip. I made a huge difference to this small families day today, they were so grateful – I was just doing my job.
I was buzzing by end of the day. Tomorrow it all happens again.

Just my thoughts and experiences.
I truly wish you all the best, I enjoy and value your posts OP.

*raises hand slowly*

Yup.

Over the past few months I have slowly come to realise things which have been put into words far better by others. I’m probably not OK and I should probably do something about it (other than mull it over a rum or three).

I think I will come back in a bit. Thankyou Kaiser for sharing.

The road of life is paved with flat squirrels who couldn’t make a decision.

That needs to go on a t-shirt!

Barkm – that’s a really fascinating story. Did you intend to end up driving a cement lorry or was it a series of events that hot you to that point

Thank you CSB  someone understood the simple point I was making.

Nice story Barkm ..glad things got better for you and happy you “enjoy” my threads despite many recently being about the darker side of life (which many know little about until such things slowly become clearer or a reality or they think deeply ) Perhaps believing the fairy tales told by parents or priests can provide comfort but I personally have refined the negativity bias so I see the worst rather than best . It’s not nice . I only said today to someone I wish I could market my skill at seeing what is wrong with things or what may happen . I am also an expert at catastrophising ..a common trait in ruminative depression and not fun . It also probably makes you not a nice person to be around ..I know that anyhow so isolate not just for myself but for others benefit although to be honest I rarely find people to be interested in anything more than small talk about family ,their latest acquisition or holiday so I benefit by avoiding them too!
My overthinking probably came from having a very colourful imagination . At school people would request the “Bill xxxxxx(my surname) show” as I could entertain them endlessly with stories/jokes,outrageous ideas ..the list goes on ..that bubbled up from within with no effort . When things got darker though the same process produced a distressing perspective together with cynicism, skepticism and a search for answers. I became sick of superficiality , small talk , being let down , misled etc and gradually got generally sick of people and society . It wasn’t that I was any better either as I didn’t particularly like myself ..I could see through my ability to turn a blind eye , ignore things etc which I knew weren’t right . I was not strong enough to change and live better so had to accept I was ..like most people ..a **** up fallible human being . Whether I’m **** up because I think about reality too much rather than choose nice stories is debatable .
With much experience in overthinking I wouldn’t recommend it ..it will probably make you ill eventually ,although one benefit is that I have often solved problems that have previously been given up on due to extended processing !
Meditation has helped ..in fact today a long mantra session quietened down the old grey matter and gave me a little rest . i have been doing such things for 30yrs to find the elusive “peace of mind “…my life’s ambition but unlikely to be achieved .
Good talking with you all ..I wish you well and find these conversations far more rewarding than numerous sessions with a therapist charging £70 an hour which takes me a whole day to earn .
All the best
Bill

Kaiser I can relate to your experiences although I present myself slightly differently. But:

I only said today to someone I wish I could market my skill at seeing what is wrong with things or what may happen

This is a vital skill in my line of work as an IT architect. People (including myself) come up with ideas that sound great, and I have to think of every possible thing that could go wrong, every reason why it’s the wrong approach, and mitigate that or change course.

A few years ago the company I work for rewrote some software, and at least one bad decision was made which had knock-on effects and resulted in large amounts of effort to re-write it again over several years, far more effort dealing with customers who found faults with it; and we lost a lot of good will and probably business too. If only we’d had someone the team who could’ve pointed out what was wrong!

Thanks op perhaps there are ok people here.I increasingly have had my doubts.
Anyway St Patrick’s day tomorrow so Paddy uisca for me and Polish mush hopefully!

Anseaneen you’re most welcome.. have a drink or 50 for me!

No 50 they will beat me again!

(Polis farce here.)

Thanks for sharing Barkm.

Na problem absolute zero.

In short, I’d managed to accumulate enough ‘stuff’ to fill a 4 bed house and garage and came out mortgage free. I was made redundant at 53 in 2018 and decided enough was enough working with people I had little in common with. Suffered a stress-related illness in 2002 and had decided that ‘chasing success’ was not a healthy pursuit. A move to Scotland in 2020 and a simpler life – smaller house so less need for stuff. Biggest decision of the day usually involves the weather forecast and where to take the dog. My depression and anxiety at the time was heightened by the uncertainty of my situation – simply going with the flow really helps. Love the flattened squirrel analogy.

I ride my bike alone and enjoy the peace and solitude ..away from everyone and everything.

Cling to that. It’s positive.

Thanks for starting this thread Kaiser. I’m sure it’s helpful for many of us.

I’m a fair bit younger than you. There’s history of suicide and mental health issues in every area of my family, as i’m sure there is in most families. I consider myself lucky to have experienced certain things at a young age – my sister’s repeated attempts to take her life as a young teen for one.

I was always considered to be the glue of the family, easygoing, never stressed, doing well at school and sport. Nobody knew how preoccupied i was, always otherthinking every situation, rerunning every conversation from the previous day. Feeling weighed down by life. I was the stereotypical person that presents as happy enough on the outside but was actually deeply sad inside.

The odd thing was that my Mum, Step-Dad and sister were all Samaritans, but i never spoke to them.

One night when my Mum was away I reached a decision point, it would be less painful to end things. I didn’t have the guts to go through with it. From that point on I went through cycles of depression for the next few years, through two Uni’s (a new bunch of friends that wouldn’t have known), a long-term relationship with a highly intelligent agoraphobic (her problems gave me a different focus to my own and someone that needed me), all the time with a mild drug addiction bouts of anhedonia and absolute fear of rejection.

Eventually I randomly met my future wife in a near-deserted youth hostel when we were both travelling alone. She loved the same things as me and changed the trajectory of my life, and while things aren’t always perfect, I think that was the catalyst for me to recognise the cycles. As i’m getting older i’m actually getting better and better. If i dip i don’t panic, i know it’s momentary.

For me at least there was hope and I know now that there always will be. I made a pact with my wife to not live a boring life, so we never know what’s around the corner.

Another lyric from the same Bob Marley song (among others) that I always think about:
“Every man thinketh his
Burden is the heaviest (heaviest)
Ya still mean it: Who feels it knows it, Lord”

Key to this was changing my relationship with stuff. I don’t need a new audi on the drive – nobody does. I don’t need to spend £50 on a kettle to boil water, £5k on a kitchen, £3k on bike, £500 on a device to scroll through shit on the internet. You do not need any of that.

absolutely spot on.
actually i think this is the point @tjagain had been pointing out earlier but getting criticised for? 🤷‍♂️

@tjagain i think you’ve been treated unfairly by a couple of posters here. I read your contribution as the framing of a fairly simple and largely accessible approach to contentment. There will always be folk who experience barriers to nature and the outdoors but that doesn’t detract from the potential for a whole range of people.

well said @csb. i also enjoy tj’s input in threads and would welcome him back to the thread, his posts often resonate with me.

great thread, really thought-provoking.

Thanks op
TO misquote Jimmy Cliff
You can get it if you really want
But you Cean Tra Tra Tra.
Apologies.

actually i think this is the point  @tjagain had been pointing out earlier but getting criticised for?

Ok, seeing as that’s aimed at me, allow me to respond.

I have no problem with TJ saying that he enjoys Scotland’s countryside and wild camping. It sounds idyllic, who wouldn’t enjoy those things? We all would of course. But then in addition to that perfectly normal sentence TJ went on to add

– a very cheap pastime

That phrase changes the whole notion of the sentence before it. It carries with it assumptions about a huge number of things, your class, your education, your circumstance, even your colour. The problem with it is that it assumes that because the wilds of Scotland are cheap and convenient to him (an educated, wealthy, white male retiree), it must be that those things are therefore cheap and accessible to everyone else, and just a moments thought reveals to anyone who’s paid attention to levels of deprivation in this country that it’s a nonsense. By all means criticise western omni-capitalism, and reject it if you think that’s the way to a happier place, but understand that most of folks posting on here are doing so from a standard of living that a good number of folks are striving to even come close to. I’ve been very very poor, and I can tell you from experience, being even just very poor is a whole bunch better for your mental health.

Me “gently” suggesting to TJ that he watch a video about that very thing on this very site posted just a few days before this discussion will tell you everything you need to know about why I think it’s right to point it out.

I won’t respond on this thread again, if TJ wants to contribute, that’s entirely up to him.

Avoid comparisons, they’ll make you discontent, make the most of what you have.

I think my life’s great by my own standards, if I didn’t I’d change it.

Acheivable objectives, people I’m happy with and sometimes I’m happy enough with my own company for a while.

Today for example, and even then there’s you.

You’re doing fine TJ, but people are making that comparison mistake rather than taking onboard some of your philosophy.

Accept where you are and make the most of it or do somthing about it and live with the good an bad that brings.

Wild camping for those of us in the SE is a high risk pastime and getting to it can prove “not cheap”. Similarly our opportunities for solitude are limited at weekends due to the large numbers accessing the local countryside and the awareness of what is available close by since lockdown.
Making it work here requires a very early or late start.

I suspect that those in Moss Side and Handsworth will have a similar perspectives on getting out into the country before we take their income into account.

I wild camped and bouldered on sandstone crags near Tunbridge Wells having hitch hiked there from the Midlands.

Nickc Why you are so fixated on me that you need to follow me around the forum and bully me? Multiple examples of this and everyone can see it

You fixate on one phrase to the point you missed the point I was making which was all about learning to be content and to take pleasure in simple things. sunsets and sunrises, birdsong, a walk in the park

I know I have played my part in this in the past playing a role like nickc here, something i am deeply ashamed off especially as I did not realise what I was doing until forcibly pointed out. I have apologized for my behaviour and stopped using pejorative words. Its still not good enough for you.

But you have your way. I will not be posting again as I cannot cope with the constant bullying from you and others

Yo need to have a good think about why yo behave like this

edit – I left the thread because I did not want this to become a fight about me but you continued it and thus further derailed the thread?

By all means criticise western omni-capitalism, and reject it if you think that’s the way to a happier place, but understand that most of folks posting on here are doing so from a standard of living that a good number of folks are striving to even come close to

There’s a lot of this on here. There’s even loads of programmes about it on telly. “I was a stressed out banker and now I own 100 acres in Lapland where I hang out with my herd of reindeer”. It must be nice to get off to such a flying start in life that you can simply decide to pack it all in half way through.

I wild camped and bouldered on sandstone crags near Tunbridge Wells having hitch hiked there from the Midlands

And did you start from Handsworth or a similarly deprived part of the Midlands? When one is focussed on financial survival buggering off for a jolly in the county is low on the list of priorities. Try exercising some empathy and humility from your ivory tower. (Speaking as one privileged, older, middle-class white male to another).

Dear me. Most of kids in the south Birmingham secondary modern I went to had bikes as good as if not better than mine. I was the only one who used it to explore and sleep under bridges when it rained.

You’ve chosen the wrong person to slag off as coming from a privileged middle class background. My father worked in a factory in Tyseley. Happily he had a workmate in a cycling club who on hearing about my solo adventures suggested I join his cycling club. The workmate knocked on our door one night and invited me along on the next club run. That changed the course of my life, along with a couple of good French teachers.

Plenty of wild camping options within falling-out-of-bed-distance of Handsworth, admittedly a bit noisy. And a whole load more within an hours bike ride along the canals

Sorry for assisting the thread derailment

At 26 I was fed up with my water scientist job, motorsport, Welsh weather, my girlfriend… so I cashed in my pension to pay off the credit card and got a job on a campsite in France cleaning caravans and entertaining kids.

That worked for me, it might not for you. I was quite happy cleaning other people’s toilets.

The alternative is nihilism, which ends in the obliteration of the self when nothing matters

I like to think I’ve become something of an expert at nihilism. My mental trick is not to see myself as a pointless irrelevance in the enormity of the universe, but a curious observer who marvels at the complexity of it all. It sort of works, but it does result in a little too much detachment.

Or the other conclusion is hedonism.

I’m also very good at this. In fact if you use the right substances it can help with the above 😏

Nice post Reeksy ..love the Bob Marley quote also .

Do keep posting TJ ..I enjoy many of your contributions despite you ruffling the occasional feather (not mine btw) That’ll always be the case as opinions are like arseholes ..everyone has one and many are full of xxxx.

I once smoked a spliff with Desmond Dekker but not Jimmy Cliff sadly

I feel it was worthwhile starting this thread ..please “gather ye all fellow seekers/oddballs/neurotics ” keep your feelings and stories coming ..it’s refreshing to hear you’re not alone.

Let’s try and have less conflict if possible because we all have more in common than what divides us (and being right isn’t worth the effort imho .. all sides often have valid points )
As the Buddha said .. anger is like picking up a hot coal and throwing it at someone else… You always get burnt.

Agree and I apologise for stirring the pot. I find that sometimes we don’t need advice we just need fellowship.

***
Not attacking anyone or complaining, the following is just an observation about how we differ
***

I mean, I like biking, but when I’m depressed the problem is that I don’t enjoy biking. A lot of people post saying ‘oh just go out on your bike’. For me, this just makes things worse, but on the other hand a lot of people appreciate it. So advice is a difficult thing. You don’t know if people need it until you’ve tried to give it and either been thanked or shot down.

I personally don’t like anything when at my lowest ..particularly experiencing being alive and feeling so shite all round but ..if I can somehow muster the will and energy ,a bike ride ..preferably with a few lung busters , it will improve how I feel and sometimes reset me although temporarily.
I nearly always am glad I went out after the exercise as the internal storm calms for a while .
Following the seeming interest in this thread I would like to cordially invite other fellow ” oddballs, neurotics eccentrics , cast outs , mavericks ,drop outs ,cranks, bicycle tramps etc to meet up more often on here to discuss the reality of our lives rather than listen to the nonsense that we are fed by people who wish only to control or benefit from us.
Everyone not in that category is also welcome but personal conflict is to be avoided !
I like people who share their vulnerabilities ..it is actually a strength to be proud of and shows you are a human rather than a product of Instagram and the like.

Ultimately I’m left feeling empty by life.

This is how I’ve been feeling, increasingly so, for the last few years. I’ve endeavoured to live a good life, do what’s right and be a decent friend, dad and husband, but have been left feeling somewhat empty and flat. I’m in no way religious but find thoughts turning to what may come after this life, if anything, and how it might reflect how one has lived. To possibly give this life purpose and an aim.

It’s sadly reassuring to read that other people share a similar emptiness, and stops me questioning if it’s purely down to me.

Very relatable subject matter, thanks for posting kaiser.

OP thats a very brave and honest write up, and i think we’d all be lieing if we said that life is amazing all the time.

I was similar to yourself, early to mid twenties, life and soul of the party, drunk every weekend and got out through the week whenever i could, i could literally go out on my own and bump into mates anywhere i went.

As i got older i realised i was running away from life, i lost my mum to cancer at 20 and hadnt dealt with it and was dealing with it by ignoring life.

Fast forward 18 years and i have few friends, dont socialise a lot and dont really see that many people outside of my family.
However the friends i have got are amazing so i dont need loads of them and im a bit of a loner.

The phrase happy with your lot in life springs to mind but its not even that, i dont think anyone has a “lot”

I still enjoy the odd night out but i dont need to do it every week or every day anymore, i dont need a lot of people i barely know, i need a few people i know very well.

Mental health is difficult – ive been through the lot – anxiety, depression, functioning alcoholic, but the other thing ive realised is that life is pretty mundane most of the time, with some low times and some good times but thats all normal.

Anyway thats my inner ramblings on the subject that together with a ticket will get you a ride on a bus. 🙂