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So I spent most of last week up in the Lakes - somewhere I've not been in FAR too long. Some big rides, epic weather, magical views, and some great trails.
BUT... A lot of the bridleways have undergone some pretty serious renovation work which seems to have been done with no thought for trail users other than walkers. Long, steep, flights of steps, with (and this is the killer) really vicious water bars. Absolute wheel trappers, and given the steepness of the terrain, any rider dropping their front wheel on, will be needing a hospital very shortly afterwards.
Now people tell me I'm a pretty good rider, and yes I did eventually manage to clear Dollywagon Pike (the worst example I came down), but I did have to stop and have a good look at some of the water bars for alternative lines, whilst others were distinctly "lauch, clench and hope" efforts. The former simply defeats the point of building a weatherproof trail, the latter arguably a little stupid when I'm riding in the big hills on my own (but a 7" travel bike helps).
If I'm struggling on a big bike, a lot of other riders aren't going to stand a hope in hell. Now whilst I'm completely anti "trail sanitising", surely there's a duty of care for the people doing the work to consider all potential legal trail users and not build something that's actively dangerous? The steps I don't mind - they're just a little bit dull after a while, but surely there's a better drainage option than building wheelcatchers every 50m?
The quieter trails I rode were fabulous. Blacksail down to Wasdale was lovely - bit of everything, Grizedale -> Patterdale - nice, and a lot easier than I remeberit from 10 years ago; whilst dropping down from the top of Honister Pass down to Gatesgarth down Fleetwith was simply awesome - steep, loose, tight, technical, exposed, down right scary in places. Fantastic.
Anyway. No doubt I'm going to get a flaming/MTFU for daring to complain about trails being "too hard", but it's actually not that I'm objecting too. It's the principle of "if you need to build something, then building something that doesn't consider all potential users" that I have an issue with.
Dollywaggon needed significant work as there was a danger of the whole slope collapsing, however the main track is unrideable for most riders and someone said a ranger told him to ride on the grass (despite TJ's claims of environmental wrecking)
Any photos of said problems? Must be pretty damn hefty if you can't cope with it with 7" of travel! Christ, you could ride over a fridge with 7".
How far down do the steps and waterbars go on Dollywagon? When I did it I think it was the section down to the tarn, then from there it was still nice rocky goodness - have they 'improved' more of it?
I rode some of the top bit, but had a couple of over the bars moments - quite fancy another pop though, as long as the bottom bit is still good.
I suspect there is only a relatively small amount of bikers that would be using this route so they probably don't really see the need to cater for them - still annoying though.
Must be pretty damn hefty if you can't cope with it with 7" of travel!
It's pretty difficult to pop your front wheel up when you are right off the back of the bike and going round a tight corner. If you are going slowly the travel isn't really going to help you that much.
We had some of those waterbars built up here when there was an anti-mtb guy in charge of forestry - sounds like he may have moved to your area 🙂
I spent a few days walking round our course with a 4lb hammer and a chisel (bolster). I put a slight bevel (1/2") on the width of the waterbars and also did a bigger bevel so that there was a ramp wide enough for tyres in one spot. This doesn't change the waterbar but removes a lot of the risk of a snakebite. The wee ramp was for chickens like myself who can't bunnyhop 🙂
Dollywaggon:
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(Harvey will usually ride anything)
One for TJ, check the erosion:
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I can understand the need for an armoured trail. I can even understand the steps (some of the time) as they'll be safer when icy, but its those damn water bars...
coffeeking - they're about 18"- 2' wide and 12" deep, and you're approaching them coming down a steep flight of rock steps. A few of them have a lip on the uphill side too. In principle you can "just" manual them, but the consequences of failing to make it are pretty horrible.
There is nothing in the regs that says the trail has to be suitable for bikes.
It just has to be maintained to allow its continued use. Given that it's pretty rare to see bikes on Helvellyn (at least, compared to the number of walkers that are up there) you can argue that they're simply catering to the majority.
SFB is right, something needed to be done with that trail and it's been done with maximum sustainability/longevity in mind - unfortunately, that plan doesn't include making it nice to ride.
[i](Harvey will usually ride anything)[/i]
He's wearing lycra, if was in baggies he'd have cleaned it fo sho.
How far down do the steps and waterbars go on Dollywagon?
❓
I remember hearing rumours that they were extending it.
I remember hearing rumours that they were extending it.
there's only a short section near the tarn not already done!
How far down do the steps and waterbars go on Dollywagon?
Just down to the tarn at the mo. The rest of the trail down to Patterdale is pretty much as I remembered it from 9 years ago.
There is nothing in the regs that says the trail has to be suitable for bikes
Surely there is, as it's a bridleway, and as such needs to be suitable for horse and bike access? A large amount of the work done in the Peak (santisation at it's worst - singletrack -> gravel motorway) seems to have been done on the basis that it "has to be safe for horses"...
seems to have been done on the basis that it "has to be safe for horses"...
though in fairness anyone taking anything other than the most limber of fell ponies up there would be guilty of animal cruelty! I don't know how you'd get it down Lower Man...
[url= http://www.bogtrotters.org/rides/2009/26apr/DSC_0278_.jp g" target="_blank">http://www.bogtrotters.org/rides/2009/26apr/DSC_0278_.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
dollywaggon, mentally difficult waterbars, one completely unrideable I reckon*, big step down right into waterbar about 12" high on the far side proper wheel stopper. No decent run in/out to pick up speed to launch over it either.
*has anyone ridden it all? (not sfbs route 🙂 )
*has anyone ridden it all?
Sort of. As I said above, there were a few places where I had to stop, look, work out a different line, avoiding said water bar, push back up a few feet and have a second crack at it.
So yes, I've ridden all the way down, but no, not in one go, feet up, and no, I've not ridden "the trail" and only "the trail".
[i]Surely there is, as it's a bridleway, and as such needs to be suitable for horse and bike access? A large amount of the work done in the Peak (santisation at it's worst - singletrack -> gravel motorway) seems to have been done on the basis that it "has to be safe for horses"... [/i]
Yes but trail classification is arbitrary at best and a complete total nightmare. As SFB says, no-one in their right mind would be taking a horse up there so why is it even a BW?
Loads of trails have been re-classified from BOATs and RUPPs, no real criteria and the law specifically states that bikes don't need to be considered! 😯
I've seen FP's that are basically roads yet bikes aren't allowed on it. They are however allowed on the 6" of muddy trail signposted as a BW just to one side of it. Bonkers.
Afrade to say, bridleway just means that you are "permitted" to take a bike/horse there. No requirement that you actually can!
robinbetts - Member
Afrade to say, bridleway just means that you are "permitted" to take a bike/horse there. No requirement that you actually can!
Which is a good thing! Think of all the Bridleways that would have to be sanitised so your next door neighbour, his fat wife and the 3 kids can all use it.
Just down to the tarn at the mo. The rest of the trail down to Patterdale is pretty much as I remembered it from 9 years ago.
Ta.
there's only a short section near the tarn not already done!
hmmm I don't remember it being [i]that[/i] short
hmmm I don't remember it being that short
starting from the BW junction by the tarn, no more than 250m of track 🙁 Basically the pitching starts as soon as the track swings right onto the climb
It's not a good example of pitched path building - boo. It's harsh enough descending on foot! Good on you for trying to ride it.
simon - I'll bite - how do you think paths turn into a wide eroded mess? - people riding/ walking at the side of them Seen / shown to happen many times over
One of the things you should consider is "what would happen if everyone did what I do" The answer is you will soon have an eroded line alongside the armoured path. On steep fragile slopes like that bikes cut lines which gather water and rip the soil away.
Its a basic component of mountaincraft / etiquette to ride / walk on the most eroded / armoured bits to contain erosion.
Of course you will now come in with loads of bogus justification for your poor practices.
What yo do would not be acceptable in terms of "reasonable" access in scotland
simonfbarnes - Member..........someone said a ranger told him to ride on the grass
Last time this was discussed you claimed [b]you had been told directly[/b] by a ranger to do this.
Now its a friend of a friend.
To be honest I don't really have a problem with with the pitching. Dollwagon was a cr@ppy manmade scree which was expanding very quickly before they put the pitching in. Now the grass is growing back and the fellside is becoming more stable. The pitching is a rideable if your used to that sort of thing and if your not keen there's plenty of chicken run options to the side. Unfortuately the volume of traffic nowadays means these pitched paths are necessary to protect the fells.
"what would happen if everyone did what I do"
a) I wouldn't blame them the rocky steps are a nightmare
b) observation would suggest "nothing much", it's very tough grass and the slope is fully stabilised now.
Last time this was discussed you claimed you had been told directly by a ranger to do this.
sorry, no, I quoted the person who told us that in the thread. I don't need a ranger to tell me what to do, in fact I don't even believe in rangers as I think they're made up like gods.
[i]One of the things you should consider is "what would happen if everyone did what I do" The answer is you will soon have an eroded line alongside the armoured path. On steep fragile slopes like that bikes cut lines which gather water and rip the soil away.[/i]
I'd hazard a guess (having been up Helvellyn several times on both bike and foot) that there are <200 bikers a year using it whereas there are thousands of walkers. At busy times, the path is too narrow to cope with them all so where do they go - that's right, over to the sides.
The slope is a lot more stable now than it used to be. The first time I did it the whole thing was just a massive scree slope, it's grassed over and shored up now.
Of course you will now come in with loads of bogus justification for your poor practices.
perhaps you could save me the trouble and write it for me ?
What yo do would not be acceptable in terms of "reasonable" access in scotland
luckily I won't be going there :o)
Tell us TJ, you seem very grumpy, are you not gettin enough lurving ??
What anc said. It was essentially steep loose scree beforehand, personally I reckon it is more of a challenge and probably a better ride now. There is one HUGE waterbar that seems a bit excessive, and I am a long way from riding it all but I don't think it is too bad. IMO the original erosion came from years and years of thousands of walkers going up and even if 200 or so riders a year go down the grass, I doubt you would notice any change. That said last time I was there walkers where talking the shortcut down the grass.
Dollywagon ain't a great example of the National Park Staircase, but the builders didn't have much to work with, except a loose scree slope. The pitching down from Sty Head utilises a lot more natural features, slabs and the like, and personally I think it is an excellent bit of trails.
Hows that for 2 cents
in fact I don't even believe in rangers as I think they're made up like gods.
in the interests of honesty I'd like to clarify this - there may well actually be rangers and gods, however their level of intervention in real world situations is similarly absent, and their true nature may be different to that imagined.
The pitching down from Sty Head utilises a lot more natural features, slabs and the like, and personally I think it is an excellent bit of trails.
Now that I do agree with, although I didn't have the cleanest run as it dumped it down for most of my descent and all the walkers in the area were desperate to get of the hill, hoods up and oblivious to both my polite "Hi there/lovely day for it" and the banshee scream of my sopping wet brakes. The slab sections were a lot of fun.
Must admit, I was suprised to literally not see another bike out. The walkers were obviously a little surprised too - they all seemed quite shocked that someone might want to ride a bike on the high fells. Invariably friendly though!
JonEd did you do the gloriously unsanitised descent from Long Mire to Seathwaite? **** me it were good yesterday.
crackingbit of trail, already done that this year with walna scar, might try to fit it in again before winter.the gloriously unsanitised descent from Long Mire to Seathwaite?
Agreed about sty head, that's how to do pitching properly. The downiest downhill I have ever ridden, absolute cracker. Pity it's such a ***** to get to the top.
"what would happen if everyone did what I do"
Fatuous argument. Everyone does not do the same thing and never have done. You've got to stop this suburban communist thinking of yours TJ. It just takes you further from reality.
It was only a TJ drive-by this evening 🙁
In response to TJ's suggestion that I had changed my story, here is the original post I quoted in http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/hell-vellyn-last-sunday-pics
splatz - Member
Ineteresting discussion but just to set this off again.....After riding the zig zags about 18 months ago I rang the National Park Officer to suggest that in future if replacing bridleways with rock stairs then the water channels should really be culverts. This would make them safer to ride - it's the water channels rather than the steps that scare the S%*t out of me. It would still be a real challenge but otherwise rideable if it was just steps and culverts.
The LDNPA officer responsible advised me to ride down the grass and that the steps were put there to reduce the trudge erosion of the walkers.
The man thought I was a fool to say that it was pointless spending so much on reducing erosion control only to advise mtbikers to ride down the grass. And wouldn't it be better to do future work with mtbikers in mind?
So if the LDNPA advise riding down the grass then the attacks on sfb seem misdirected - and for once he is just doing as he's told.
Oh dear he won't like that much!!
Posted 1 year ago # Report-Post (27 Apr 2009 )
so, not me gov :o)
We await TJ's response with baited breath. Could he actually have been wrong for the first time ever?
If I'm struggling on a big bike, a lot of other riders aren't going to stand a hope in hell.
You would think so but it's amazing what a hardtail does for the confidence....
You would think so but it's amazing what a hardtail does for the confidence....
Have you ridden the route in question?
You would think so but it's amazing what a hardtail does for the confidence....
I *love* riding hardtails, and some of the bits I rode over the 4 days would have been more fun on my BFe, but that particular descent would have been particularly brutal on a hardtail.
the gloriously unsanitised descent from Long Mire to Seathwaite
Nope... do tell? Which Seathwaite is it? Got a grid ref?
🙂
Think he means the more southern Seathwaite over the other side from Coniston. You can go Coniston-Torver-Stephenson Ground-Seathwaite-Coniston via Walna Scar. Cracking ride.
Nope... do tell? Which Seathwaite is it? Got a grid ref?
SD 222 943
[url= http://www.bogtrotters.org/maptest.php?jumpto=322230,495080,8,50,400,150,300,0 ]http://www.bogtrotters.org/maptest.php?jumpto=322230,495080,8,50,400,150,300,0[/url]
That's what I assumed Fizzer meant too, [url= http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?x=322325&y=494790&z=120&sv=322325,494790&st=4&ar=y&mapp=map.srf&searchp=ids.srf&dn=662&ax=322325&ay=494790&lm=0 ]here[/url] rockytastic
Cool, thanks. Will add that to the list of things to do.
I've been reliably informed that it's rubbish and I couldn't really have enjoyed it (or been scared) because it's just a wide track with some rocks on it
[url= http://www.bogtrotters.org/rides/2008/10feb/_DSC0251.jp g" target="_blank">http://www.bogtrotters.org/rides/2008/10feb/_DSC0251.jp g"/> [/img] click pic for bigger[/url]
We await TJ's response with baited breath
1) bated
2) TJ is too busy dissing helmet compulsion to spare time for the environment 🙁
tbh I'd do Hellvellyn the other way, push up Dollywagon and then down the other side and onto the miners path to Patterdale.
Why on earth would you want to push (or rather carry mostly) up Dollywagon?
Why on earth would you want to push (or rather carry mostly) up Dollywagon?
[b]DUUUH[/b], to ride down Lower Man :o)
Aye that's exactly where I was at weekend, leading a Boggies ride down there. There is also some wicked trail in the Lickle Valley as a prologue to the Seathwaite descent.
Rode the Dollywagon descent yesterday. It was awesome, despite being on an utterly inappropriate bike (456 with rigid forks, while Revs get repaired). The section down to Grizedale Tarn is very "man-made" and perhaps not that sympathetic of bikers... the water drains were an annoyance, although everything was just about ridable after much pushing back and checking lines, and falling and trying again.
It's shame that a tiny bit more thought wasn't put into catering for bikers, because it had the potential to be even better. I had never ridden there before, so no idea what it used to be like though. Section from the tarn back to the road is also great fun, less steep, faster, but occasionally trials techy too - pretty much my perfect kind of trail.
Can't wait to go back and ride everything a bit quicker on something with a bit of squish!
This was my first Lakes ride for 10+ years, (other than Whinlatter), can anyone recommend some similar descents?
This was my first Lakes ride for 10+ years, (other than Whinlatter), can anyone recommend some similar descents?
If your after rock then Esk Hause to Styhead then seathwaite is a absolute cracker and my personal fave. But also....Walna scar to Coniston then later on the same ride Stainton ground to the other Seathwaite(Duddon). Blacksail into Wasdale. Burnmoor into Wasdale. Back of Fleetwith into Buttermere. Scarth Gap into Buttermere. Bowdale going north west. Sticks pass heading east then theres a cheeky detour under Green side round Glencoyne valley for some techy singletrack with top views. Harter fell to Nan bield col then either descent, the one into Haweswater being the more techy. Garburn into kentmere. Skiddaw and down Ullock. Whiteless from wandope and down the front. Both bit cheeky. Parkermoor to high nibthwaite. The Borrowdale Bash descents watendlath to Rothwaite and castle crag plus some other cheeky extra's. Rossett gill or Greenup edge if you feeling brave 
List is endless but these should keep you busy for now 😀