The contact-tracing app, accuracy?

Maybe I need a tinfoil hat but there is no way on earth I would use the UK governments covid app and I have serious reservations about using any app.

Wow 3 weeks without the a word but now a little sky story.

For many people involved with the app, the mystery is not why the UK developed a centralised option, but why it took so long to switch away from it.

Unlike almost any country in the world, the NHSX app wouldn’t send out alerts based on a positive test, but on reports of symptoms made by users.

Part of the reason was a desire for epidemiological data. But just as important, according to three NHSX advisers, was the fact that the English testing system couldn’t deliver results or data fast enough to make the app work effectively.

Now being reported that the track and trace system didn’t carry out the legally compulsory data impact assessment and hence is essentially unlawful.

While I generally subscribe to the position that when there’s an option between a conspiracy or a simple cock-up…….on a matter such as this it’s pretty inconceivable to me that the people in charge weren’t aware. It seems that the devolved nations managed it. And now the Gov (Williamson in this case) is defending it as having to be set up at speed and ‘you’re not advocating we get rid of it are you?’

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-government-admits-its-test-and-trace-programme-is-unlawful-12032136

Total incompetence or untrustworthy. What a menu of choices.

It may not be lawful but at least it works

So how’s our “world-beating” test and trace system coming along? Well, it’s uncovered a new Covid outbreak — in one of its own call centres (Motherwell, Lanarkshire). Plus it could all be illegal — ministers failed to carry out privacy assessment, as required by GDPR laws.

— Andrew Neil (@afneil) July 20, 2020

It’s finally out.

For those worried about installing it, I’d hope the original app fiasco would encourage you to believe that this version doesn’t have issues. The app is a bit like vaccinating your children: it only works if everyone installs it. So you need to install it for others’ sake.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=uk.nhs.covid19.production

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/id1520427663

The app is a bit like vaccinating your children: it only works if everyone installs it. So you need to install it for others’ sake.

Its nothing like vaccinating your children then. Vaccinating your children provides them with a direct benefit, and with sufficient numbers provides a degree of protection to those who aren’t/can’t vaccinate.

Interestingly when Scotland launched its app a few weeks ago they said even 15-20% uptake would be enough to have some benefit.

ministers failed to carry out privacy assessment, as required by GDPR laws.

I mean its almost like the bloke in charge is known to not care about details… aka boris

I can’t make my mind up on this. I feel as a good citizen I should install it.

So I installed it. First thing it does is turn on location on my Android phone. Battery issues? I assume it’s not GPS just BT location?

Like a good freedom loving citizen, I won’t be installing it…

I can’t make my mind up on this. I feel as a good citizen I should install it.

This is me.
But right now I’m not sure I will.
I’m going to give it a week or 2 to see if there are any horror stories before making a final decision

Is this useful without access to testing? A question, not an indictment.

Can it be used to monitor  local infection rates and indicate trends, or is that out of scope?

I’ve uninstalled I think I’ll give it a week or two let them iron out the kinks.

I installed the Scottish Version a couple of weeks ago – no noticeable effect on battery life (kept Bluetooth on all the time anyway) and unsurprisingly as I work from home and only really go out to walk the dog or go to remote places, it hasn’t had the occasion to ping me.

The fact it is so easy to disable the app (not that I have!) by turning the bluetooth off may reduce it’s effectiveness. I can foresee a situation where by folk will think “I have this thing I want to do next week, but want to go to the pub tonight. I’ll be best turning the app off tonight to prevent it telling me to isolate and potentially miss doing that thing I want to do”

Is this useful without access to testing? A question, not an indictment.

Can it be used to monitor local infection rates and indicate trends, or is that out of scope?

It would be pretty useless if there was zero testing, but that’s not the situation. Over 200k tests yesterday. Turnaround time for test results is also important.

It gives a risk level for the area you are in. I’m currently in a ‘medium’ risk area (or adjacent to one).

The amount of data we leave on the web is huge, yet people think this app will allow the government to spy even more…

I’m not hugely worried by it as I don’t go anywhere….

QQ for those who are sceptical of the app. Say for a second the data / your location isnt anonymised and the gov’ know where you are what evil can they do with knowing you went to the local coffee shop or pub?

So I installed it. First thing it does is turn on location on my Android phone. Battery issues? I assume it’s not GPS just BT location?

Bluetooth Low Energy requires location permissions on Android, because it can be used to identify someone’s location with great precision. Anything that needs access to Bluetooth services will need to request this permission.

I can think of bigger things to be worried about. The sort of person who thinks the Government is going to be tracking them with a Covid-19 app is unlikely to self-isolate if required, wear a mask, or have a vaccine.

*** it’s taken them six months to get this app out in its current basic form. If they want to track your location there are better ways that already exist.

Say for a second the data / your location isnt anonymised and the gov’ know where you are what evil can they do with knowing you went to the local coffee shop or pub?

Amongst other things they can direct a social media blitz shouting “vote Leave” at you at a time when they know you are befuddled by drink and likely to make a poor decision.

I’m not worried about the BT location information per se. As others on here have commented I’m sure Google have loads on me everytime I use navigation on maps (yes I have disabled that little known setting where it logs all your journeys). I was worried about the battery life really but BT is always on so I guess it don’t matter.

Lad and I gave downloaded it. Be interested to see how many of his fellow college students have.

Even with my mental health wobbles, paranoia about this app hasn’t even occurred to me.

Has the accuracy been confirmed yet?

For example, lets say I go to the pub twice.
One night I am sat inside approx 1 metre from someone, sat face-to-face.
The next night outside, approx 2 metres from someone and we are back to back.
The risk of transmission is much higher in the first example compared to the second.

Whilst I know it do’t be able to work out ho we’re sat, will it know if we’re inside or out? And will it know the difference between 1 metre and 2?

Is this useful without access to testing? A question, not an indictment

Yes. It may also be that it would help them prioritise testing, either in terms of who or where effort is directed towards, but at the most basic level it says “you are higher risk of having covid, so don’t mingle”.

Can it be used to monitor local infection rates and indicate trends, or is that out of scope?

It won’t tell them infection rates, but it might give some useful clues on “exposure rates”, ie. how many people each user is exposed to, and if that is changing dramatically.

The Scottish one seemed to present me with a summary of how many potential exposures I had has in the past week (its a shame that isn’t a nice dashboard since I think it might encourage people to avoid exposure!). In an ideal world it would not only tell me how many potential exposures but have some sort of score about how many potentials they have. If the only people I see are cautious elderly relatives who rarely interact with others my risk is radically different from seeing the same number of people but where those people are on and off public transport, pub, and other gatherings…

Whilst I know it do’t be able to work out ho we’re sat, will it know if we’re inside or out? And will it know the difference between 1 metre and 2?

No it will have no idea if you are indoors or outdoors. Its not clear how robust any of the systems are at estimating distance. There are two many variables. Phone model, orientation, potentially reflective materials, people in the way, inside a bag, etc. Its not intended to be a magic tool – its a possible way of capturing people who might have been in your infective zone for quite a long time (15 mins).

One night I am sat inside approx 1 metre from someone, sat face-to-face.
The next night outside, approx 2 metres from someone and we are back to back.
The risk of transmission is much higher in the first example compared to the second.

This is true. But in either scenario, you should be isolating to stop yourself passing it on. If anything… if the app was able to accurately tell you which way you were facing, and if you were just 1m+ or over 2m apart, then that could be a bad thing as people may just discount encounters that their ‘common sense’ told them were low risk… the 2m rule isn’t magic, it’s just lowering the risk of transmission, not removing it. If you spent a decent amount of time sat near someone with the virus, you could be a carrier now. Be safe, don’t take it work (or another pub).

The fact it is so easy to disable the app (not that I have!) by turning the bluetooth off may reduce it’s effectiveness. I can foresee a situation where by folk will think “I have this thing I want to do next week, but want to go to the pub tonight. I’ll be best turning the app off tonight to prevent it telling me to isolate and potentially miss doing that thing I want to do”

This, very much this.

I’ve downloaded it.

I actually trust our government slightly more than I do Mark Zuckerberg, which is really saying something.

I’m gonna DL it, despite some misgivings.

I’ll be best turning the app off tonight to prevent it telling me to isolate

But the same goes for giving your details to the pub/restaurant. They’ll be people leaving false details to avoid being contacted. No system that isn’t like something from 1984 will stop the selfish from spreading the virus if they want to avoid or work around the help given to them to avoid doing so.

The amount of data we leave on the web is huge, yet people think this app will allow the government to spy even more…

This.

I’ve downloaded it, I’m not sure how accurate or helpful it’ll be but they’ll only be able to make the app better, more accurate and more useful if people use it. If it drains my battery a little faster then so be it, I’m pretty sure I’m never that far from a charger. For those worried about the government tracking your location, there’s much easier ways to do that within the mobile phone networks than having an NHS app on your phone.

I have serious reservations about using any app.

…and yet you trust Mark Zuckerberg. Weird.

Downloaded, if it helps a tiny bit, then good.

Downloaded it too, again if it helps a tiny bit I’m in.

Interesting discussion at work, the top bosses not in favour of it at all (understatement) – as people might need to isolate if they’re been exposed, and that’s inconvient to the greedy so-and-sos!! The same bosses do not want anyone who CAN work from home, to do so! This thing really shines a light on people

Interestingly when Scotland launched its app a few weeks ago they said even 15-20% uptake would be enough to have some benefit.

So hopefully enough of us will be able to see past personal fears about how data might be used and/or being told an uncomfortable truth (ie, they have to self-isolate) and download it.

I did it first thing this morning and I hope the vast majority of all the grown-up and sensible users on here will do the same and try to do one tiny thing that might just help mitigate the eventual final outcome of the pandemic.

I have downloaded it as well.

Interesing that people think Bluetooth or BLE can detect your location.

With GPS your phone can detect where it is located (by triangulation of the signals it gets from several satellite’s that are always in the same position). You phone OS can then share that location with an App or upload it into the internet somewhere.

Bluetooth can also detect signals from other bluetooth devices and your phone can understand the signal strength (so likely distance). To use bluetooth for location awareness, you need an application that knows where each bluetooth beacon (or sender of the signal is), and then again your phone can triangulate your position – This is how indoor way finding works, and no matter what people claim anything sub 2m is very difficult.

The contact tracing apps don’t worry about triangulation, they just store the bluetooth ID’s of other phones you have been near, and based on signal strength and time it calculate’s when you have been near someone long enough for a potential transmission to occur. This is then stored for 2 weeks in case the other person tests positive, and it that case you are notified. So if you get notified it will be because of your proximity to someone who has subsequently tested positive, not where you were.

The UK app also has a check-in feature, that just allows you to skip the giving your name and contact details when you arrive at a venue.

And for the paranoid who won’t download the App because “someone” might know where you are and where you have been, the fact you have your phone with you means “someone” already knows this data – (think the mobile network, any public WiFi company you have signed up to, etc etc)

Interesing that people think Bluetooth or BLE can detect your location.

Yet you’ve literally just spent several paragraphs explaining how you (or someone else) can determine a phone’s position via Bluetooth…

I’ve downloaded it. Quite exciting. I’m imagining it as a bit like the scanners the marines use in Aliens. Would be cool if it made the same noise.😀

<Yet you’ve literally just spent several paragraphs explaining how you (or someone else) can determine a phone’s position via Bluetooth…>

No, I have just spent several paragraph saying it can’t as the reference point (other people’s phones) are not in a know position

The road agencies use Bluetooth to calculate estimated driving times displayed on those dynamic notification boards seen on major trunk roads too.

The protect.scot app now has over 1.1 million installs. Even allowing for some uninstalls and folk switching BT off, that’s got to be at least 25% of the mobile phones in Scotland, so above the efficacy threshold.

No, I have just spent several paragraph saying it can’t as the reference point (other people’s phones) are not in a know position

The whole point of BLE beacons is to enable location tracking indoors. If your phone sees one of those, then it knows that other devices in range are in the same proximity.

I doubt it’s doing this, but that’s what I’d do if I wanted to implant chips in the general population- I mean, track their exact position.

Doesn’t seem to be gobbling battery on my phone, but it’s a Huawei so there’s a long pecking order for tracking apps and I suspect the Covid-19 one is behind the CCP / Google / Facebook etc… 😉