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  • The awful, shocking, terrible, horrible realisation…
  • Premier Icon hels
    Subscriber

    But back to the serious subject at hand, I am very worried about the rise of the far right. History tells us to expect this when economic conditions are bad, but I have never lived through it. Maybe I read too many scary books about the Holocaust when I was a kid, but it looks to me like the EDL/SDL are doing the dirty work for the racist policies of UKIP and the SNP. What next, smashing up shops owned my the Muslimists ??

    Shibboleth
    Member

    As an interesting aside, I live in a former northern mill town, by a river, which may or may not be the one referred to in the Original Post.

    There are areas of this town that are now 100% populated by Asian families. One of these largest areas bordered a rather well-to-do middle class white Christian area – you know, huge Victorian villas, copper beech-lined avenues, that sort of thing.

    In recent years, Asian families started buying up these houses so their kids could go to the better schools in the leafy part of town. Now, the vast majority of that area is populated by Asian Muslims, and those schools which were once so sought after, are now exclusively Asian and English is no longer the first language.

    And here’s the funny thing. Very few of the houses pay council tax. Some of the biggest and highest-yielding properties in the area are exempt from council tax, because the owners claim to have a communal prayer room.

    So, the area is going to ruin because the local authority don’t have money to spend on improvements. So the remaining white Christian families are all trying to move away from the area. Maybe they’re racist, maybe they just don’t feel a part of the cultural spirit of the community in which they once felt they belonged. Maybe they want their kids to go to a school where they don’t need translators to understand the teacher, or where they’ll be taught French or Spanish, rather than Gujarati.

    Now there’s a glut of properties on the market, and, due to the reasons listed above, only a small percentage of the overall population that actually want to live in that area. Therefore, the houses aren’t worth anything like what they were 20 years ago, in spite of the fact that the average prices of housing in the wider area continues to rise in line with the averages elsewhere in the region.

    Another way of putting it would be to say that this area is experiencing a drop in property values because of the Muslims, who are taking over. Which, whilst no less accurate, sounds far more inflammatory to a self-righteous middle-class liberal who wants to show off how enlightened he is.

    I’ll leave that with you, I’m off for some lunch… 😉

    Junkyard
    Member

    and those schools which were once so sought after, are now exclusively Asian and English is no longer the first language.

    And here’s the funny thing. Very few of the houses pay council tax.
    Obvious troll is obvious again 🙄
    Does it upset you that you can never be Littlejohn and you are left to do it here instead in the hope of a reaction with your fanciful made up tales designed to get a reaction?

    grum
    Member

    And here’s the funny thing. Very few of the houses pay council tax. Some of the biggest and highest-yielding properties in the area are exempt from council tax, because the owners claim to have a communal prayer room.

    Curious to know how you know this?

    Another way of putting it would be to say that this area is experiencing a drop in property values because of the Muslims, who are taking over.

    Of course if you’re not too bothered about living around lots of Muslims that’s quite a good thing, cos you can buy a nice house for cheaper, (assuming it’s accurate). Swings and roundabouts.

    Rockape63
    Member

    I love it that someone who doesn’t like Johnny Foreigner taking over their town/area is a ‘Bigot’.

    Why do you think that some people find mass immigration unacceptable?

    If you’ve grown up in surroundings that you are comfortable in….and they change, why should people not find that disconcerting?

    Why is the ‘enlightened’ view the only acceptable one? Who made you God??

    grum
    Member

    Who are you talking to? The imaginary lefties that control everything?

    chewkw
    Member

    Sometimes people do not know how to express themselves properly so they rely on their instinct. It does not mean that they are wrong or bigot but merely their way of analyzing information around them.

    Based on my experience a place can be completely populated within one or two generations. A bit like the 3rd world example but nevertheless it’s human migration and if they have high birth rate then things will change even faster. Then you have the inevitable friction …

    Having lived in several countries around the world, the one thing that marks the UK out IMO is the remarkable levels of tolerance and moderation that mark our culture. Step away from the headlines and look at how different races, religions, nationalities etc are able to get along and, to different degrees of success, integrate with each other. Of course, the UK is far from perfect and we have (growing?) numbers of people who feel disenfranchised especially with the weak state of the economy. They use various excuses to vent theirs frustrations including racist ones. But fortunately, they remain in the minority and the UK is the better for it.

    Rather than focusing on the fact that people may get less tolerant as they age, I would prefer to focus on the fact that the younger generation is far more tolerant that previous ones and that bodes well for the future here.

    The problem with sensationalist headlines is that they can obscure proper and APPROPRIATE discussion of genuine issues such as levels of immigration, integration and perceived or real pressures on services that come with this.

    munrobiker
    Member

    I suspect that statistically most of this country’s social problems are caused by poorly educated white people in the lower classes. I suspect there are far more of these born ever year than there are net migrants. It surprises me that people like rockape aren’t also calling for them all to be neutered since their births are currently “out of control” . Or does it not work like that because they are white Britons?

    My wife is what the bulk of modern day immigrants are like- from a middle class background and well educated with skills to bring to our nation. Immigration is not necessarily a bad thing. I think most of them are reasonably well off too- her visa was about 2 grand. And she will have had 5 of them before she can stay permanently. You don’t hear about them because they look the same as “us” and dress the same.

    It is very convenient for the right wing political parties to make immigration an issue by propagating fear of outsiders when the reality is a long way from this. People entering the country on a spouse visa and several other visas are not even entitled to benefits nor a vote.

    Lifer
    Member

    On the free speech/give ’em rope business:

    EDL Newcastle demo – ‘Send the black ***** home! (vid link)

    labsey
    Member

    It’s like atheist vs religious types arguing, you can’t use logic and verifiable facts to defeat nutters.

    This.

    Facebook does make it harder to the ignore the casual racists.

    http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/experts/article-1678510/Prayer-rooms-fact-or-urban-myth.html

    In case you can’t be arsed clicking on it, in a nutshell it says the rumour is all bo!!ox.

    Now don’t panic, I’m no liberal; 20 years in the police knocks that out of you.

    atlaz
    Member

    I love it that someone who doesn’t like Johnny Foreigner taking over their town/area is a ‘Bigot’.

    Are people “taking over” or just moving to the area? Nobody is saying people who aren’t overly keen on immigration is a bigot, but certainly a good sized proportion are. If you say that all muslims are bad for an area, you’re a bigot unfortunately. If you say that there is a problem with certain specific people that happen to be muslims, that’s a different matter.

    Why do you think that some people find mass immigration unacceptable?

    Two can play at that game. SOME people find it unacceptable because they have an opinion that is formed from half-baked ideas that have no basis in fact. The UK called out for immigration in the 2nd half of last century to fill jobs and ensure our services kept running. The UK didn’t collapse and I’d say we’re all a little bit better for coming from a multi-ethnic society. I live in a predominantly single-ethnicity country now and some attitudes are, quite frankly, shocking.

    If you’ve grown up in surroundings that you are comfortable in….and they change, why should people not find that disconcerting?

    You can use that argument for everything in modern life. Immigration is one of a million items in daily life that people experience culture shock from. My grandfather never quite got to grips with the idea of the internet but was quite happy with immigration (the eastern European farm workers in the area meant cheaper beer for him as they couldn’t afford most pub prices originally). On the other hand, his lack of comfort with the internet and what it meant never spilled over to violence and rioting (he was usually a bit too drunk for that sort of thing).

    Shibboleth
    Member

    In case you can’t be arsed clicking on it, in a nutshell it says the rumour is all bo!!ox.

    Well, I was told by an acquaintance who works for Lancashire County Council in taxation that many of these homes were being registered as premises for religious communities and as such qualified for exemption from Council Tax. I must have misheard him.

    Junkyard
    Member

    council tax is collected by the local councils and not the county council so i would not know about that …perhaps that is what they told you and you misheard?

    Premier Icon dukeduvet
    Subscriber

    The way forward this is

    Shibboleth
    Member

    …perhaps that is what they told you and you misheard?

    Perhaps. Perhaps I also misheard him tell me that nobody dare question it in case they’re accused of Islamaphobia… My hearing ain’t what it used to be 😉

    Lifer
    Member

    Oh you brave soul. You are a rock. An island.

    Junkyard
    Member

    You are a rock

    your hearing is not what it used to be either 😉

    Lifer
    Member

    Speech impediment, shirley?

    Premier Icon ocrider
    Subscriber

    From the prayer room link

    If people honestly believe neighbours are escaping their liabilities in this way, why not ask your local council for its list of local places of worship. If they are not on the list, they are not exempt.

    Therein lies your answer

    Shibboleth
    Member

    Actually ocrider, I think herein lies my answer…

    A discount for members of religious communities can be granted where a person has no income or capital of their own, is dependent on the community for material needs and where their work is prayer, contemplation, the relief of suffering or a combination of these.

    It follows that if a property is occupied by 2 adults and one of them qualifies as a member of a religious community a discount of 25% would be given. If both adults qualified as members of a religious community a 50% discount would be given.

    Then there’s public liability insurance…

    Is the abode now “business premises”?

    Are separate sex toilets needed?

    Has the property been risk assessed: ie have prayer mats been secured to the floor to reduce trip hazards? Will the mezzuin be calling the faithfull to prayer in a muted volume to remove the need for hearing protection? Will guiderails be provided so that women (and fleeing criminals) wearing burkas can find the way to the bar area after prayers?

    Red tape minefield, mate. Leave well alone.

    Lifer
    Member

    Where is quote from please?

    Shibboleth
    Member

    Doncaster Metropolitan Borough Council. In a reply to a Freedom Of Information request about this very issue.

    mt
    Member

    Are we having a sweep on how many more posts before the thread is closed?

    Shibboleth
    Member

    It’ll be an absolute disgrace if it is closed MT… Nobody has expressed a remotely racist – or even bigoted – view so far. It’s the very fact that there’s an atmosphere of fear when debating subjects like this that crimes like the grooming of young girls for sex by older Asian men has gone unchecked.

    There’s a huge difference between discriminating and being able to recognise and discuss problems. And there hasn’t been any discrimination on this thread.

    joeegg
    Member

    I have quite a few friends,and one family member,who all moved house due to a gradual influx of Asians in the area.
    The reasoning went that you sold your house first,normally to Asians,and this would then put off “white” buyers who saw Asians creeping into the area.Less buyers,lower house prices.Racist or economic decision ?
    One couple took a massive loss to leave an Asian dominated area due to racist abuse and even having stones thrown at them.
    I had a business for over 17 years that primarily dealt with Indians,some of which had come from Uganda.They were hard working and invested in this country but were racist.My wife complained to one Indian boss about his treatment of a worker who was from Pakistan.
    She was told that the Pakistanis really were no better than slaves,and the area that i came from,Bradford,has the worst class of immigrant.In fact they said too many immigrants had been allowed into the UK,but i believe they meant wrong type.
    Lets not beat ourselves up about having racists,bigots etc as it extends far wider than the EDL

    Premier Icon zippykona
    Subscriber

    What joegg says.
    The last time I checked the rest of the world wasn’t full of nations living harmoniously side by side.
    I remember being in a cab with a Jamaican colleague and when he found out that the driver was African and not Caribbean you could have made snow balls the atmosphere was that chilly.

    wrecker
    Member

    Indians,some of which had come from Uganda

    I’m no geographist, but I’m sure Uganda wasn’t in India last time I looked…….
    Have they moved it?

    joeegg
    Member

    Indians were kicked out of Uganda by Idi Amin.If you travel to Kenya you’ll find Indians control quite a bit of the economy,as they did in Uganda.

    wrecker
    Member

    Learn something new every day.

    Premier Icon ocrider
    Subscriber

    I had a quick Google and found the FOI request that you quoted, so a little perspective may be in order….

    There is no such exemption in Council Tax legislation that allows a reduction on these grounds and therefore the answer to your question is none. The only reduction that can be given on similar grounds is a discount for members of religious communities and not specifically for prayer rooms alone

    So noone gets a £0 pound council tax rate, agreed?

    A discount for members of a religious community…

    I can confirm that there are currently six properties in Doncaster that qualify for a 50% reduction on these grounds

    That number is lower than my pinko-lefty estimation. I had it at probably a dozen for the whole town and that was not counting other denominations.

    On that note, I’m outta here. Got to play footy with some evil north African muslamic jihadi dudes. Top bunch of lads they are 🙂

    GEDA
    Member

    Was the uk a nation of immigrants before the fifties? Of course it has has small scale immigration on and off but harking back to the saxons, romans, vikings and normans is maybe taking it a bit far. I would call those immigrants quite well intergrated. The thing is that we need to admit there are issues intergrating a huge number of people into a country, it takes resources and a will to do it. You also need a vision of what a country is, does the notion of a nation state really even exist now? I would say to me the british values i aspire to would be equality between all, scientific rather than religious thinking, mocking authority including religion but also religious tollerance.

    I am an immigrant, it is a funny experience. Sometimes you feel intergrated and sometimes you feel like everybody wants to subtly egnore you.

    nick1962
    Member

    unklehomered – Member

    “I’d love to see a mosque being built in Mecca”

    And this ladies and gentlemen, and the other pearlers in that video, are why I am a keen fan of free speech…
    Haven’t wasted my time listening to those EDL louts on the video but if he did say that then he is amazingly right.

    GEDA
    Member

    Actual many in the muslim world are up in arms as the Suadi’s have knocked many of Mecca’s religious sites down as they did not fit with their interpretation of islam and they wanted to build a mega hotel.

    Junkyard
    Member

    Nobody has expressed a remotely racist – or even bigoted – view so far.

    Yes you have kept yourself to inflammatory and inaccurate ones like this post..I commend your self restraint

    It’s the very fact that there’s an atmosphere of fear when debating subjects like this that crimes like the grooming of young girls for sex by older Asian men has gone unchecked.

    yes that is almost definitely the cause of it …if we just debated it a bit more it would cease. Out of interest does this work with all crimes, all sex crimes or just so called Asian sex crimes ?

    went that you sold your house first,normally to Asians,and this would then put off “white” buyers who saw Asians creeping into the area.Less buyers,lower house prices.Racist or economic decision ?

    Well those white folk sure do sound racist to me if they wnt live next door to some Asian.
    I would assume you got less white buyers but more Asian buyers as they wanted to live there so swings and roundabouts.
    Whilst we are doing unevidenced anecdotes locally the “Asian quarter” is no more expensive than the area opposite despite. It does have less crime, fewer drug dealers and nicer gardens though and i know where I would rather live tbh.

    One couple took a massive loss to leave an Asian dominated area due to racist abuse and even having stones thrown at them.

    Unlikely IME but it fuels the meme. My mate was one of a few white folk left in an area that became Asian and he loved it. He is still friends with both his neighbours who came to his civil partnership last year. His house went up massively in value as Asians wanted to move to the area so he made a mint from this. He neither experienced racism or homophobia – except from some white working class “chavs” who still lived there.

    I hear this house prices line trotted out but it is just not true to say the affect house prices [ though it socially more acceptable to pretend it is economics rather than saying you would not live with them as neighbours as that sounds a bit racist]. Again if house prices drop it is because racist white folk wont live there which is hardly their fault.

    Sometimes you feel intergrated and sometimes you feel like everybody wants to subtly egnore you.

    Whatever 😉

    Premier Icon piemonster
    Subscriber

    Indians were kicked out of Uganda by Idi Amin.If you travel to Kenya you’ll find Indians control quite a bit of the economy,as they did in Uganda.

    Anyone heard much about Fiji lately?

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    Again if house prices drop it is because racist white folk wont live there which is hardly their fault.

    This may be true, but other people’s racism is probably of little comfort if you’re trying to sell your house and can’t.

    GEDA
    Member

    Is it not the point that people need to get along with each other and we have to work out how. If a large proportion of the population are feeling uncomfortable with where they feel their country is going do you solve it by calling them rasist or bigots?

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