Until the 12th these books from Cambridge Press are free to read

https://www.cambridge.org/core/what-we-publish/journals/protests-policing-and-race#

I think ninfan has Asperger’s syndrome but maybe doesn’t realise it.

@molgrips – be careful chucking around comments like that. I’m AS but very empathetic and open minded, so I don’t particularly like being bracketed with behaviour like that when it’s a broad spectrum. It could be that ninfan’s twuntery and wilful ignorance is a result of being on the spectrum, or it’s just from being someone with little to no empathy and no desire to accept alternative points of view.

I’ve no interest in engaging with you further, until you have read the information I’ve provided.

I’ve read it, And in my opinion it doesn’t demonstrate the problems you claim are prevalent.

I’m not going to answer your questions as they have no relevance to the discussion

It’s entirely relevant that a metric used by you and others to demonstrate The existence of institutional racism could also be misused to demonstrate sexism, but isn’t, because nobody thinks for one second that the police stopping mainly males is discriminatory.

In fact it reeks of double standards by self important ‘community spokespeople’ with a chip on their shoulder and an axe to grind.

It’s also directly relevant that those same people calling for us to ‘defund the police’ would be the first to complain that the police were not investigating and preventing crimes committed against Black people.

(You may recall that that was one of the criticisms of the Macpherson report you relied on earlier)

The sense that you don’t Really want to discuss those things because they don’t fit your agenda is palpable

… t’s just from being someone with little to no empathy and no desire to accept alternative points of view.

This, I think.

Until the 12th these books from Cambridge Press are free to read

Oo, that’s good – thank you! 🙂

little to no empathy and no desire to accept alternative points of view.

Im perfectly happy to accept different points of view

I’m just not prepared to accept Bullshit accusations of racism that aren’t supported by the data or facts.

See, for example, the Utterly false claims made about the police treatment of Ms Williams above.

I’ve no interest in engaging with you further, until you have read the information I’ve provided.

+1 I’ve no interest of conversing with someone who so overtly protecting themselves from from becoming not racist by not willing to learn.  What an abhorrent trait.

not willing to learn

show me some data & facts supporting your point then.

You’re using your own argument against yourself. Focusing on one incident and extrapolating that out to form an argument for the issue as a whole. That’s how you’re not accepting other peoples points of view as they’re looking at it from a macro position, not micro. One incident does not prove the hypothesis, but thousands of micro-interactions over time do, not all of them make the news or are recorded.

Focusing on one incident

They are the ones posting them here as ‘proof’ of racism.

“extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”

They are the ones posting them here as ‘proof’ of racism.

And you then regurgitate your opinion on them ad infintum, regardless of how the discussion is evolving

extraordinary claims

And therein lies the point, they aren’t – they are everyday normality for some people, the majority of whom are Black or BAME.

And you’ll refute that or ask for more evidence because you are not willing to put in the effort to discover this simple element of truth for yourself.

Ninfan, you’ve read both The MacPherson Report (29 pages of a detailed legal jargon) and my open letter?
To form an opinion which dismisses them I presume you have cross referenced them. I’d be interested to hear your opinion. Did you find the chapter of SPSO legislation I referred to in my letter and can you comment on its impact on the investigation of public agencies?
What about legal aid? And why is it not available for human rights or public law cases?
If being a white woman qualifies me to offer an opinion on sexism within the force then I shall offer one. I’m not going to look up statistics for the amount of women in the force but I think we can accept that it’s considerably less than men. Why do so few women join?
Is it because it’s a predominantly male institution?
Does that in turn then mean that its difficult for women to progress?
I’m aware that Cressida Dick is now Commissioner so that shows progress for women.
Was that not the answer you were fishing for?
Ok, so a predominantly white male force stops all males more than females. Why is that? I could throw data at you which demonstrates that men are inherently more violent and criminal but that would not give you a true picture, would it? No, because there are other issues at play. We can’t use the socioeconomical argument as female single parents are worse off than single white males.

*Edit Sorry for the abrupt ending, I don’t wish to derail the thread and discuss sexism however if you wish to start another thread I’ll do my homework so that I can give an appropriate answer.

PS, I’m also neurodiverse (diagnosed autism) with Savant syndrome

I don’t usually engage with these threads as I start to despair about humanity. I’m out, see you all in a thread about farts

I could throw data at you which demonstrates that men are inherently more violent and criminal but that would not give you a true picture, would it? No, because there are other issues at play.

Regardless of the issues at play, it would make stopping proportionately more men than women entirely sensible & proportionate – therefore not, in my opinion, (or, I would contend, the opinion of the majority of people) discriminatory.

Anyone reminded of the muppet that used to derail gun ownership threads by talking about using one’s car as a lethal weapon? Can’t quite remember who it was.

I know you mean well but this is waffle:

Systemic and institutional racism are insidious and unless you are the victim of it, it is very difficult to see, yet it affects every aspect of life.

Biased Anecdotical evidence + gatekeeping.

It’s not an area which has been studied in detail, I’d say that was because of racism and we don’t want to recognise the damage we’re doing.

Circular argument?

Perhaps you don’t want see it because you would then have to recognise your own privilege, and that will further expose your own fragility.

Ad hominem and circular argument all in one.

There’s been no study of the police to determine the extent of racism in the force and how it is applied to their daily duties. Yet, we can see through a vast amount of individual cases that it does exist and that it is recognised by government agencies and independent institutions.

This reads as an assessment of discrete events indicate the existence of a trend(institutional racism), however parameters to quantify this have not been established. On a side note there are studies somewhat related to this(US), and how what cops see everyday may override any bias training (even if the police is non-white).

One incident does not prove the hypothesis, but thousands of micro-interactions over time do, not all of them make the news or are recorded.

That’s not how it works. Correlation does not equal causation.

Can’t quite remember who it was.

Proved right wasn’t I? Ban guns, terrorists use cars instead.

Still, how does that Attempt at an ad hominem attack bear relevance to alleged police racism darcy? Or are you just devoid of any decent argument to put forth in favour of the allegation it exists?

Thing is as a copper you’re on a hiding to nothing.

If the description says black, 5’9, 30-40, male. That’s who you’ve got to look for. Not worth your time looking for 4’ ginger dwarf is it?

Damned if you do, damned if you don’t..

Baboonz, you’ve cherry picked random quotes from various people and placed them out of context whilst dismissing opinion and hard evidence such as the MacPherson Report and articles.

Ninfan, whilst white males are stopped more than white females, it’s more likely because the police have a witness or concrete evidence that they have committed a crime. Such as a description of hair colour, build and clothing. Black males are more likely to be stopped, because of racial profiling and white people find it hard to describe discerning features. Are you suggesting that a predominantly male institution is discriminatory towards males?
As I’ve asked before, if you wish to discuss sexism please start another thread as it’s not relevant to a discussion on racism.
To paraphrase Scott Woods “Racism is more than just hate, it’s apathy, disinterest, ignorance, power and privilege.” It can also be applied to other forms of discrimination such as sexism.

I’m out, see you all in a thread about farts

🤣

Mrlebowski, how about build? Heavy or athletic?
Hair? Short, weave, natural or dreadlocks?
Nose? Broad or narrow?
Piercings?
Tattoos?
Gait?
I had the police at my door once, as there’d been a break in in a neighbouring town, the police had my partners address as he had to register weekly with the police as part of immigration control. They were there purely because he is black and that was the only description they had. If the description they had was of a white male would they then go around every white male in the county?

That’s not how it works. Correlation does not equal causation.

Tagging back in to cover this very selective point from baboonz. I wasn’t on about causation, I was actually reffering to correlation and ninfans reluctance to accept it. If you accept that there is a correlation you can then start looking at the root cause of the problem and then put steps in place to address it.
Feel free to start chucking those highly amusing graphs from Reddit about correlations as i’m sure they’re coming soon

This one might be a bit to complicated for some of the current posters on this thread but here you go.

When he was about 15 my brother in law was coming home from school with a group of friends who were kicking an old saucepan up the street using it as a surrogate football. One of the other kids kicked the saucepan and it hit a car. Unsurprisingly the owner came out of his house to reprimand the kids.

The owner then complained to the school. He could identify the kids collectively because they were wearing school blazers, though not individually other than that one of the kids was black.

There was only one black kid of that age group in the school. So my BIL gets called into the headmasters office and punished for the actions of another kid because he was the only one present who was identifiable. His mum went down to the school to try and explain to how screwed up this was but the school could see nothing wrong.

The use of skin colour as a description is interesting; in a majority white country, is it a problem to use skin colour when trying to identify someone?

Would you use it to describe a missing child?

The cycling whilst black and walking home from school whilst black examples are just conundrums, examples of how a situation can become more complex simply because of colour and that society often fails to recognise these complexities.

Mrlebowski, how about build? Heavy or athletic?
Hair? Short, weave, natural or dreadlocks?
Nose? Broad or narrow?
Piercings?
Tattoos?
Gait?

I take it that you’re implying that the more detail available the better, which is obviously the case..

But what if said detail is lacking & the description given is essentially just generic?

The owner then complained to the school. He could identify the kids collectively because they were wearing school blazers, though not individually other than that one of the kids was black.

This is the problem – when the description is so basic & so lacking in detail, how do you proceed with identifying the correct person?

I’m open to all & any suggestions as someone who is potentially joining the police I want to avoid antagonising the innocent. Inskter, your input particularly would be interesting as it seems your experiences with the police have been far less than ideal..

mrlebowski.

You do know that the description doesn’t always exist right? That there is no investigation in progress? That there has been no reported crime? That there is no smell of weed?

Stuff does get made up you know.

EDIT.

I’ll get back to you when I’ve had a think mrleboski, I can see your input is genuine and I respect that.

mrlebowski.

You do know that the description doesn’t always exist right? That there is no investigation in progress? That there has been no reported crime? That there is no smell of weed?

Stuff does get made up you know.

Then that is wrong, that’s just fundamentally wrong. I’d be appalled if a fellow officer acted in this manner. Sadly, I know it happens. I am very much aware of the issues the Met, for example, have with racism. See Stephen Lawrence..

However, if we wish to change & improve upon that then we must have a frank & honest dialogue. That, I would think, would involve pain on both sides..

Essentially, my desire is to help not hinder.

There was only one black kid of that age group in the school. So my BIL gets called into the headmasters office and punished for the actions of another kid because he was the only one present who was identifiable

To be clear, your friend didn’t offer any details on the people he was with? It seems that the adults in that case knew there was a group involved so did the others get completely away with it?

I was picked out on occasion because i was tall, especially for my age. Example was throwing handfuls of stones over a wall at scouts, me & mates on one side, unknown lads on the other and we couldn’t see the opposition. It was all good crack until someone got hit in the eye and went to the scout master. Guess who got pulled up even though we were all throwing stones over the wall. The scout master said, i was identified as ‘the tall one’, the others were then dragged in as i was quite happy to implicate them.

But, crucially – was I vertically profiled? Was that a fair thing to do? Should we stop using ethnicity as an identifier?

In the original example I think the issue is more how the investigation and justice was carried out

mrleboski,

When I see those videos of encounters with the police go wrong I see myself in the police officers.

I grew up in the countryside during the 80’s, in a 99.9 white market town. After school I moved to inner city Manchester. The contrasts were profound and as expected it took me some time to adapt as there was much to learn and plenty of things to deal with that I hadn’t encountered where I’d grown up.

One of my good friends from sixth form also left the sleepy town to go to the big city, he joined the Met Police. After a few weeks training he was plonked into an inner city area, into an environment where there had been riots only a few years previously. So I contrast my gradual inroduction to a different and comlex environment with my friend and the abrupt nature of his introduction to the city and how difficult and steep the learning curve must have been for him.

What I’m trying to draw attention to is the fact that we have always had a situation where those recruited to police the inner city for the most part have come from the suburbs and the countryside. Do they have the requisite experience and skills set to do their job properly? Is it a question of training and education, (yes) or more broadly is it about how recruitment patterns can lead to a sense of occupation by some citizens as they are being policed by people who neither represent or understand the community they are supposed to serve.

Loughan,

I’m tall too, I was the one who got sent to the off licence because I looked the oldest. I even got suspended from school once where the deputy head even admitted he took a dislike to me because I was tall!

I guess it’s ultimately about the difference between being profiled because you are a tall and being profiled because you are black. I think there is a difference.

But as you point out, the facts of the example I gave are incontrovertible, there isn’t an alternative set of facts to work with. There are however alternatives in the way in which an investigation is carried out and how justice can be ultimately delivered.

cycling you say……..

Black dad and son, 13, tackled and handcuffed by police on charity bike ride

Should we stop using ethnicity as an identifier?

I was about to put my hand up and say ‘wait, but ‘ethnicity’ doesn’t necessarily mean skin-colour ie you can have someone with a genetic heritage that is dark-skinned, yet be more ‘ethnically’ (culturally) English than they are African etc, etc.

But then my hand goes down because it seems that there are varied definitions of ‘ethnicity’. This is the first one I googled:

Ethnicity:

1Relating to a population subgroup (within a larger or dominant national or cultural group) with a common national or cultural tradition.
‘ethnic and cultural rights and traditions’

But I know that my parents generation use ‘ethnics’ as a collective noun for ‘blacks’ in an attempt to be what they see as ‘politically correct’.

Confusing.

Anyway, the UK government seem to think it means ‘race‘ (roughly divided by white, asian, black, arab – but it’s not so simple, wait) and group people into 18 ‘ethnic groups’ listed as

The recommended ethnic groups are:

White
English / Welsh / Scottish / Northern Irish / British
Irish
Gypsy or Irish Traveller
Any other White background

Mixed / Multiple ethnic groups
White and Black Caribbean
White and Black African
White and Asian
Any other Mixed / Multiple ethnic background

Asian / Asian British
Indian
Pakistani
Bangladeshi
Chinese
Any other Asian background

Black / African / Caribbean / Black British
African
Caribbean
Any other Black / African / Caribbean background

Other ethnic group
Arab
Any other ethnic group

So there is no ‘official’ ethnic group for (say) black English, but there is Black British.

The government says

It is recognised that these ethnic groups do not represent how all people identify. People are encouraged to write in their ethnicity using their own words if they don’t identify with any groups in the list.

So profiling someone because of their ‘ethnicity’ is as of writing really just profiling someone for their skin colour/racial DNA?

So in answer to

Should we stop using ethnicity as an identifier?

I’d suggest that in such a diverse society we should maybe be asking whether skin-colour/DNA is the prime identifier of ‘ethnicity’, or is it still a ‘handy shortcut’ ?

If that makes sense?

What I’m trying to draw attention to is the fact that we have always had a situation where those recruited to police the inner city for the most part have come from the suburbs and the countryside. Do they have the requisite experience and skills set to do their job properly? Is it a question of training and education, (yes) or more broadly is it about how recruitment patterns can lead to a sense of occupation by some citizens as they are being policed by people who neither represent or understand the community they are supposed to serve.

Good point well made.

I know, my background would make it difficult to understand the problems facing a youth growing up in Hackney. Difficult, but hopefully not impossible..

mrleboski,

Not impossible indeed. Keeping an open mind and asking yourself the right questions is the best place to start. My mate found it difficult but he had a good moral compass and was prepared to discuss things with his liberal friends. We drifted apart but I met him a few years later at a wedding and could see that he was the same good guy I’d known at school.

For context there was another guy at that wedding from the school year below us. He’d gone to university before joining the police and he’d been fast tracked to detective in his mid 20’s. He was the most overtly racist person I have ever met in my life. Offering up a stream of racist jokes and innuendo, mostly with violent punchlines. I’d got chatting to him because he was a keen mountain biker. I have genuinely wondered wether he lurks on here under a pseudonym, as he would fit both the demographic and general location bias of singletrack world from it’s early days.

That was back in the 90’s so hes either no longer a policeman or is in the higher ranks having made a career of it. Based on those twp extremes I find it difficult to stereotype the police because the best two examples I have are the complete opposite of each other.

For another bit of context, I’m sure most of us saw the footage of the female nurse being threatened with having her car window smashed in and ending up handcuffed whilst her car was searched.

She apparently fitted the description of a person that the police had been provided with regarding an apparent crime. I don’t believe any of what the police say in that video but let’s for a moment suppose the police were telling the truth. We all judge people based on type. In this instance the policeman was judging the woman based on her fitting a provided description. That description started with the words “black woman”, we dont know if the description outlined any other characteristics about her.

Looking at it from the policeman point of view (as we are because it is bodycam footage under scrutiny) he approaches the car because he believes that it contains someone who fitted the description. When the woman turns to look at him through the window we see what she looks like. When I saw her on the video it took me about half a second to stereotype her by her mannerisms and the way she dressed and talked. I thought the woman looks like she’s the go to church and pay your council tax on time type and had I been that policeman I would have had the Obi Wan voice in my head saying “she’s not the one you’re looking for” and would have adjusted my behaviour accordingly.

The policeman in question only saw a type that fitted the “description” but perhaps didn’t have the skills or experience to deal with the situation. That’s my rather generous interpretation of the police actions anyway.

inkster
Member

She apparently fitted the description of a person that the police had been provided with regarding an apparent crime

I think you should always start from the position of absolute skepticism with this one, since it’s got such a fine tradition of abuse. But especially when that’s not the reason that they gave for the stop- they say it’s because “you’re not supposed to have front tinted windows, which is actually an offence”. This isn’t true, either- you can legally have front tinted windows within limits, and it turns out, there was nothing wrong with hers.

They also don’t seem to give an appropriate reason for detaining her for the purposes of a search- that needs reasonable grounds.

TBH I don’t think she reacted totally reasonably but she’s the civilian and they’re the police, only one of them has an actual responsibility of exactly how to act and from the video I don’t think they’ve done that.

The last few pages of this thread are unreal. Pinkbike have addressed their problem with racism and representation are STW going to step up, or keep silent?