Say I push you off a cliff and you bounce down, breaking an arm, lots of bruising and such but have a heart attack and die due to an underlying condition. Are you saying its the underlying condition that was the cause or me pushing you off 😕

Why even have a trial?

Because even the scummiest shitbag deserves a fair trial.

So you believe that toxicology and evidence of his heart disease should have been a priori excluded because it was so obviously a case of strangulation? Why even have a trial?

Because the majority of the medical experts believe that the toxicology and heart disease were NOT the cause of death, I’m going with their opinion.

Happy to reconsider if your expert qualifications suggest they are wrong.

Say I push you off a cliff and you bounce down, breaking an arm, lots of bruising and such but have a heart attack and die due to an underlying condition. Are you saying its the underlying condition that was the cause or me pushing you off

From Wikipedia

The eggshell rule (also thin skull rule or talem qualem rule)[1] is a well-established legal doctrine in common law, used in some tort law systems,[2] with a similar doctrine applicable to criminal law. The rule states that, in a tort case, the unexpected frailty of the injured person is not a valid defense to the seriousness of any injury caused to them.

What I still struggle with with is that if that teenager had tried to intervene rather than just standing at the side filming then Chauvin would probably have got off with it because the defence would be that he was being distracted by the crowd.  Defence even tried that in the summing up but it didn’t even slightly stick.  The idea that you can’t intervene because someone will get off with it and you can’t actually succeed against 4 police is horrible.

Because the majority of the medical experts believe that the toxicology and heart disease were NOT the cause of death, I’m going with their opinion.

My argument was with the notion that it was obvious murder just from the video. This just isn’t true because a thorough medical examination was needed to rule out other causes of death or contributory factors.

So you’re backtracking on your earlier crass comments…🤔

Can I come round and kneel on your neck for a few minutes?

I’m not backtracking on anything. Things aren’t always a simple as they look is my point.

My argument was with the notion that it was obvious murder just from the video.

No, that’s a new argument now. I expect there’s be another few new ones if we go on. It looks like murder, smells like murder and quacks like a murder. But we’re civilised, so we give the **** a trial to give him a chance to mount a defence. He took that chance. He failed.

Clever use of the word ‘Crowd’ Looked like 1/2 dozen people.

Crowd yes, but 50 people would be considered as a crowd. A misdirection if ever i saw one.

It looks like murder, smells like murder and quacks like a murder.

Tell me how exactly you could deduce with certainty that it wasn’t a medical episode such as an overdose just from looking at a video?

Tell me how exactly you could deduce with certainty that it wasn’t a medical episode such as an overdose just from looking at a video?

In the court setting such as this was from the medical testimony.

Your argument and point arent holding water. You cant say ‘from the video’ without including the toxicology reports too.
Obviously from the video alone nobody could say and we’d be forced to agree with your point, but its not just the vid is it, its a jury getting the full facts.

Your argument and point arent holding water. You cant say ‘from the video’ without including the toxicology reports too.

Hence why I was arguing with someone higher up in the thread that the video itself wasn’t enough.

Sigh…what’s the point?

Tell me how exactly you could deduce with certainty that it wasn’t a medical episode such as an overdose just from looking at a video?

My basic first aid at work training makes me think that watching someone having their neck knelt on for 9 minutes, complaining they are struggling to breathe, struggling to breathe and then losing consciousness, I’m not likely to be dealing with a drug overdose.

ODing while being simultaneously choked to death by a police officer would be really unfortunate tbh.

Tell me how exactly you could deduce with certainty that it wasn’t a medical episode such as an overdose just from looking at a video?

Have you ever seen anyone who’s taken too much opiate? They’re drowsy / sleeping to the point of being unconscious – certainly not resisting arrest. So yes I would say even from the video evidence alone it’s absolutely clear that his death was not caused by an opiate overdose. We additionally have a post-mortem exam, toxicology and medical experts that said it wasn’t that.

You’re flip-flopping. At first you were concerned about intent, apparently in agreement that Chauvin killed him, but did so accidentally. When that argument was roundly rebuffed, you’re now suggesting that he didn’t, in fact, die of suffocation, he died of an overdose? Get a grip.

Sigh…what’s the point?

You tell me, why do you do it?

Edit: nevermind!

You’re flip-flopping. At first you were concerned about intent, apparently in agreement that Chauvin killed him, but did so accidentally. When that argument was roundly rebuffed, you’re now suggesting that he didn’t, in fact, die of suffocation, he died of an overdose? Get a grip.

You’re the one who keeps bringing up intent. I dropped it after my mistake was noted regarding the intent to kill.

Subsequently, I’m nearly pointing out that the video itself isn’t some slam dunk in response to some earlier poster who asserted that it was. I only entertained the possibility of another cause of death especially with it being reported that Floyd said he couldn’t breath before being placed in the ground.

“I only entertained the possibility of another cause of death especially with it being reported that Floyd said he couldn’t breath before being placed in the ground.”

So you are suggesting that the best way to handle someone who is saying that they can’t breathe is to kneel on their neck for 9 minutes?

I guess if you saw someone drowning you’d throw them a concrete lifebuoy ring?

i scoff cake – that is such nonsense – the video shows two things clearly – an illegal restraint known to cause asphyxiation and a man suffocating

Twenty two and a half years for chauvin.
Good.

Good news that, be better I’d he serves it all.

Where do they put incarcerated officers in the US, hard to imagine its straight in with the general population? A quick Google suggests theres not many examples.

That’s a good question; there can’t be many ex police officers in the general prison population.
Chauvin has three things against him – police officer, responsible for manslaughter of black man, how Floyd died.
How long before trump or any of his apologists start making noise about this?

Guantanamo Bay? Could be a new lease of life for the place, bad apple cop detention centre. It might not be big enough mind…

Good. And just a quick reminder that without the video there’d have never been a trial and the original false police statement would never have been found to be a pack of lies:

“Medical Incident During Police Interaction

He was ordered to step from his car. After he got out, he physically resisted officers. Officers were able to get the suspect into handcuffs and noted he appeared to be suffering medical distress. Officers called for an ambulance. He was transported to Hennepin County Medical Center by ambulance where he died a short time later.”

responsible for manslaughter of black man

Second degree murder isn’t classed as manslaughter under UK law is it? It’s intentional murder but not premeditated. Premeditated murder being the worse type of murder.

Not trying to be pedantic but I don’t want the seriousness of the crime to be understated. Manslaughter in the UK is applied in cases of unintentional killing, the US court ruled that this was intentional.

As I understand it.

Chuvin’s sentence was based on the charge of second degree murder which is defined in the US as ‘unintentional murder’.
As I understand it, a murder charge in UK court is based on the crime being premeditated.
That’s why I referred to manslaughter; for accuracy, he was convicted of murder.

I didn’t think that murder had to be premeditated in the UK. Just intentional. But I’m happy to be corrected.

The definition of murder in the UK is where you cause someone’s death and in doing so you intended to kill them or you intended to do them serious harm.
If you kill someone without that intent it’s likely to be manslaughter.
Unless you’re in a car of course.

Anyway, US system is different.

I just read the full sentencing report. I hadn’t appreciated that Chauvin had continued to kneel on Floyd’s neck for over two and a half minutes after a colleague told him he couldn’t find any sign of a pulse. Incomprehensible. His sentence was extended by about half as much again as the usual maximum for second degree murder for two reasons – 1) the abuse of a position of trust and 2) the exceptional cruelty to which be subjected his victim.

I hadn’t appreciated that Chauvin had continued to kneel on Floyd’s neck for over two and a half minutes after a colleague told him he couldn’t find any sign of a pulse. Incomprehensible.

That was an important part of the prosecution case.

For once, the murder/manslaughter of a black person in the US has resulted in something approaching justice but, in the absence of meaningful and prompt police reform, it will have limited relevance – regrettably.

curto80
Free Member

I hadn’t appreciated that Chauvin had continued to kneel on Floyd’s neck for over two and a half minutes after a colleague told him he couldn’t find any sign of a pulse.

I think that nails it home, but, for me it was just learning that his colleague called an ambulance on account of he’d been choked mostly to death, but Chauvin kept on choking him to death, and then they let him carry on with the choking to death while they waited for the ambulance to come and try and save his life from the choking to death. “We did everything possible to save him except for stopping the murder”

Listening to him tonight just reinforces my perception that the UK and US justice systems are **** up beyond belief.

20 odd years of incarceration will achieve nothing.
Rehabilitation, acknowledment of his guilt and educating others would be of far greater benefit to both society and to Mr Chauvin himself.

…acknowledment of his guilt and educating others would be of far greater benefit to both society and to Mr Chauvin himself.

If only.

It’s an intrinsic, fundamental part of the social justice systems of several European and Scandinavian countries.

It’s happening right now in many the more enlightened areas of the UK forensic justice system.

It costs an awful lot of money.
It works.

All it takes is a change in attitude – not easy, but Holland for example has shown us that accepting the facts, however unpleasant they may initially appear leads to a fundamentally better society.

It also relies on an open minded society who don’t just see prison as the answer for everything.
They don’t realise it doesn’t work and are not interested in listening that it doesn’t work.

The UK and US are not like Scandinavian/other countries…

Yep. Unfortunately our politicians know they can always get a cheer by being Tough On Crime, even though they’re basically saying We Will Cause More Crime.

Did anyone see that documentary where Anne Widicombe visited the prison in Norway which is the most progressive in Europe? Even that sanctimonious cretin could see that it was better than what we’ve got here.

But as others have mentioned, the conversation would never get started in this country, it would be strangled at birth by our reactionary media.

The UK and US are not like Scandinavian/other countries…

Not sure about the extent in each, but certainly in America, and I don’t know if it’s a hangover from evangelical Christianity and the notion of vengeance, it seems prison is for retribution and vengeance. The “three strikes and you’re out” approach always comes across as vengeful “let them rot in there”. People (principally of colour of course) end up spending long terms in prison for a few relatively minor offences. I don’t get it. Anyone got comparative recidivism stats for different countries?

People ending up dead while in the ‘care’ of the police seems to be something that is increasing, or at least it seems that way.
To know for sure you’d have to look at how many deaths in police custody were there in 1920’s,30’s,40’s,50’s, 60’s and so on up until today in 2021. I cant remember hearing many reports in the 80’s or 90’s but today they seem to be more prevalent.
Conviction of an officer or officers in the UK is a rare thing it seems.