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  • The George Floyd Protests/Riots/Madness
  • Drac
    Full Member

    Pinkbike have addressed their problem with racism and representation are STW going to step up, or keep silent?

    Unlike yourself others have reported their concerns and it has been addressed. If you have issues with any posts or users please report them, moaning about it not being pinkbike means we don’t see them.

    mehr
    Free Member

    Do you want me to name who I’ve reported?

    Whilst your here and engaged let’s talk about editorial representation

    Looks like a trump rally

    Drac
    Full Member

    We’ll review any sent. We may not always agree with the reporter.

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    deadlydarcy
    Free Member

    STW have been happy* to have racist and xenophobic material published on their forum in the past. I’ve had plenty of it from two posters I can think of and some casual stuff from a few others. Sorry, it’s not your users’ job to police shit like that – I don’t mind helping out if I see somebody being bullied on a tattoo thread or if there are spam posts, but racism and bigotry? You need to be sorting that shit out yourselves pro-actively rather than this lazy arsed laissez faire “you gotta report it guys otherwise we don’t see it” attitude. It’s your forum. You sort it out. It’s why I haven’t specifically reported racist content in goodness knows how long – if you don’t try hard enough to get rid of it, then I’d rather it was left there for all, including casual visitors, to see. Waiting for users to report is not “trying hard enough.” It is not enough anymore to just not be racist/bigoted/xenophobic, you should be anti- those things.

    I’d expect any thread like this to have at least some kind of perfunctory monitoring – and not necessarily by the volunteer mods – with whom I have sympathy when a hot topic gets all the usual keyboard warriors (me, not so much these days, but in the past, yes, guilty!) with their hot takes. I realise you’re unlikely to get a sudden splurge of bigotry on the “what’s the last thing you made” thread so it’s fair enough when you roll out the old “we can’t be all over every thread” excuse, but you ought to be on top of stuff like this.

    *When I say “happy”, I don’t mean actually happy. I mean, they haven’t really been that bothered. Because it’s still there.

    I say all this as someone who’s actually been banned for racism. Two days, appealed down to one for mitigating circumstances. 😀

    Drac
    Full Member

    DD the mod team is tiny, I work 12 hour shifts and have a social life there’s 1000s a posts on here a day. I can’t possibly read every post which is why we have a reporting system.

    mehr
    Free Member

    but racism and bigotry? You need to be sorting that shit out yourselves pro-actively rather than this lazy arsed laissez faire “you gotta report it guys otherwise we don’t see it” attitude. It’s your forum. You sort it out. It’s why I haven’t specifically reported racist content in goodness knows how long – if you don’t try hard enough to get rid of it, then I’d rather it was left there for all, including casual visitors, to see. Waiting for users to report is not “trying hard enough.” It is not enough anymore to just not be racist/bigoted/xenophobic, you should be anti- those things.

    I’d expect any thread like this to have at least some kind of perfunctory monitoring

    Amazing and exactly right. As you say if they’re not willing to address it let it sit there for all to see, you never know it might make it to sponsors one day

    And Drac I do have sympathy but some of the stuff on here should never be allowed

    Drac
    Full Member

    We do address it I’ve banned several uses over the years for such behaviour, sometimes we spot them but we do rely on members reporting them.

    Kryton57
    Full Member

    Fwiw its why i stopped posting earlier, I was at risk of getting emotionally involved to a point i might have deserved a ban myself, but it was far better to let certain people expose themselves.

    deadlydarcy
    Free Member

    Drac, to add, (and to Cougar wherever he is), I have sympathy. I don’t expect you and Cougar and the other anon guys to be all over these threads. As one of the most popular off topic discussion sites I know, I’d expect someone with a bit of diversity awareness training to monitor a thread like this. You and Cougar are [mostly] reactive monitors. It’s not fair to expect you to have the awareness to spot the tropes and pinhead dancing of the usual suspects. You’re volunteers FFS. (I did make this clear in my last post.)

    Drac
    Full Member

    Cheers DD we do try but we do have lives if our own too, sometimes threads like these live faster than we can keep up. I’ve spent far too long on here in the past trying to monitor threads. The recent offender reappeared due to an error, we dealt with them as quick as we could. In my case it was picking up an email from a very concerned member when I fired up my emails during my meal break. Please report concerns so we can review them.

    faerie
    Free Member

    Umm, awkward.
    I’ll not go over my past on the forum but I’ve been extremely heartened by the efforts made so far by the STW team to address the various issues regarding all forms of bigotry on the platform.
    Whilst the forum has been a lot more pleasant recently, I agree that more can be done as providing a platform for discrimination doesn’t reflect well on the mag or on cycling. Placing the onus on individuals to report has its flaws, I know that I struggle with it as I’m unsure if I’m being a “snowflake” or “extreme” and what the popular opinion is.

    faerie
    Free Member

    Kryton57

    its why i stopped posting earlier, I was at risk of getting emotionally involved to a point i might have deserved a ban myself, but it was far better to let certain people expose themselves.

    +1

    Drac
    Full Member

    Placing the onus on individuals to report has its flaws,

    We’re not just asking to help as once again we can’t possibly read every post.

    thegreatape
    Free Member

    I’m unsure if I’m being a “snowflake” or “extreme” and what the popular opinion is.

    Bollocks to popular opinion, if you think something’s not right report it. Better for it to be looked at than nobody ever knowing there was an issue. It’s clear from the last few pages alone that your opinion and experience on this matter should be heard.

    faerie
    Free Member

    Drac it wasn’t a criticism, I understand that the mods have other commitments too.

    Thegreatape it means a lot to me to hear that, thank you

    inkster
    Free Member

    Really appreciate your input on here faerie, it’s encouraged me to say a few things I’ve been reluctant to mention before. Times are different now, on almost any issue you can divide society into thirds. Those who get it, those who don’t and those that are unsure or disinterested .

    We’ve arrived at a moment where the unsure or disinterested are beginning to ask questions and are open to learning. The don’t get it crowd isn’t getting any bigger, they’re just getting angrier and nastier.

    I wouldn’t worry about being called a snowflake anymore, that moniker now sits more comfortably with those defending statues from pigeons than those calling for equality.

    Trying to ignore the trolls, trying to “be more Beau” (copyright somafunk) but if I see things getting abusive I’ll report and have done once before.

    Kryton57
    Full Member

    Inkster you could have been in my living room with that post.  Me and Mrs K had that exact conversation last night.   Its not necessarily BML Focused any more – not to detract from that message, BML elevated globall racial inequality – it’s shifted to an exposure and identity of inequality.   As you say, some will listen and learn and others with deny or think it’s not their problem.

    I go back to the School that tried to end Rascism documentary – I really think the “RE” should be replaced or have added “Cultural identity” (there may be better words) as an educational topic and perhaps even the racial equivalent of a the Speed awareness course could be introduced for adults.

    At the risk of quoting someone I don’t want to, people, cultures and locations are different and for that reason we cannot treat everyone the same but we should and must have the same laws, opportunity and mindset applicable to everybody.  Those should be applied during carefully measured situations, vis a vis as I said In yesterday’s issue a protective mother is a protective mother and should be treated as such, but we much recognise what it is that centuries of hate and assumption bring to her instincts when faced with a group of White police officers wielding batons quoting an assumptive weapons offence whilst physically manhandling her from a vehicle.

    It does not take a genius to see that she was scared shitless – what would a psychologist tell you happens to any human who is very scared – nor does it take a genius to see she was likely more mentally fragile due to past experience of racial profiling – this was her husbands 15th search.  Now that the Met has deemed “no action necessary” on the part of the offers involved, where do you think her trust levels are?

    Anyway, it’s education that’s important here, exposing the rascists as we would the fascists And trying to live in a society that’s comfortable for all whether that’s here on STW or on the streets where we live.

    tjagain
    Full Member
    tjagain
    Full Member

    AS a white middleaged man its of course very difficult for me to really understand the mindset of BAME youth but even I can see if the interactions you have with police are at best irritating and at worst scary then you will react in a different way than I would when stopped as all my interactions with police, even when I have been doing wrong have been pleasant.

    I have been stopped driving a car a few times and on my bike a few times. Never have I been ordered out of the car or put in handcuffs even on one occasion when I had really annoyed the cops ( misunderstanding of a gesture on the road)

    BillMC
    Full Member

    Despite the claim, there has been a good number of studies into racism and the police/canteen culture etc both directly and indirectly eg someone I know was contracted to study ‘training’ by the police but they made it clear the subtext was to focus on race.
    This is a complex issue with loads of agendas running, it would be a shame if it was just reduced to ‘calling people out’ and crying ‘trope!’ since ad hominems and insults are designed to gain virtue and to avoid the inconvenience of further discussion. When Hodge said ‘you’re a **** anti-semite’ she wasn’t inviting Corbyn to elucidate on his lifelong commitment to the dispossessed and victims of racism.

    amedias
    Free Member

    AS a white middleaged man its of course very difficult for me to really understand the mindset of BAME youth but even I can see if the interactions you have with police are at best irritating and at worst scary then you will react in a different way than I would when stopped as all my interactions with police

    Even more so when most people might only ever get stopped by the police once or twice in their lives, it’s difficult for me to imagine how it must feel to be repeatedly stopped, subject to suspicion and snide remarks, possibly even a lengthy search in public view, and then ‘allowed’ to go despite having done nothing more than be the wrong colour* looking different** in the wrong place.

    I do find it difficult to imagine how I’d react, I imagine I’d be pretty prickly after a few instances, and I’d probably start being a lot less co-operative and pleasant too. I’d also probably have some pent up animosity for future interactions too, and if this kind of thing happened to my peers, friends, and family as well then is it at all surprising the distrust and anger that’s apparent?

    When I see a police car or police officer I don’t take any more notice of them than a post(wo)man or delivery van, do you think someone with the above experience would be so blase? Or might they be worried about ‘yet another stop’ or some other unwelcome interaction? I think my behaviour would probably visibly change, I might get nervous, avoid eye contact, or change direction, some might say my behaviour might even start to look suspicious…what a tangled and self-perpetuating web that’d weave eh?

    Now throw in ‘that kind of thing’ in all walks of life, from education, to job prospects, to treatment in social situations, portrayal in the media etc. and I think if I were a member of any community that had to deal with that I’d be pretty pissed off.

    I’d like to think of myself as open, not prejudiced, and (hopefully) not racist, but I think I’m still reminding myself and learning everyday how to be better, and how to be better at recognising problems that are often invisible to people that don’t have to deal with them.

    *EDIT as I didn’t like the undertone of the phrase I used, ‘wrong colour’ FFS 🙁
    ** Still not happy with ‘different’ as in some places you might look just like everyone else that lives there.

    See this is the issue, it’s simply ‘looking a certain way’ that can cause this, and it’s not right that that’s even a thing in this day and age. We’re supposed to be civilised.

    pondo
    Full Member

    Hear hear!

    nickc
    Full Member

    Interesting snippet from a podcast I was listening to the other day. The host and his guest (a black rapper) were discussing the “getting stopped in your car; White man vs Black man” issue. The guest suggested that one of the checks you do as a black man – make sure I have no drugs on me, at all ever, no excuses, when in a car –  the white host having to agree that he’d never thought about it, and he’d not be overly concerned about having some dope in his pocket. The rapper essentially saying, as a black man, that’s a 12 hour shift at the cops.  It’s clearly anecdotal. But it speaks as to the thought processes, and why looking at statistics of arrests misses the point by a million miles. Those stats may be absolutely accurate, but the black man had clearly got a totally different approach to his interactions with the cops.

    That’s institutionalisation. You’ve taught different groups of folk to expect a different reaction to the same thing.

    deadlydarcy
    Free Member

    Interesting snippet from a podcast I was listening to the other day. The host and his guest (a black rapper) were discussing the “getting stopped in your car

    That wouldn’t be Robert Evans and Propaganda doing Behind The Police would it?

    nickc
    Full Member

    DD, Yes!! great series, don’t you think?

    deadlydarcy
    Free Member

    I started listening to his Behind The Bastards* podcast only a week or so before Behind The Police started as a mini. Bloody brilliant stuff! The last episode, 2½ hours long was gripping. Utterly staggering. Loved the bit about the Texas Rangers**. Would be funny if it didn’t involve such misery for the victims of their methods.

    I love Propaganda’s occasional “Y’all think we haven’t tried that already?” retort to the various “Why dont black people do this/that/the other?” 😀

    *Side note: the recent two episodes on various coups from the main podcast (mostly in African countries) was fascinating.

    ** NPR had a guy on recently doing a deeper dive into just the Texas Rangers. Haven’t listened yet, but based on who recommended it, I will do. Ah, just found it, it’s from the Fresh Air podcast. Search “The Brutal History of The Texas Rangers.” Actually, scrolling through, there’s lots more along these lines; police militarisation, etc.

    mrlebowski
    Free Member

    Based on those twp extremes I find it difficult to stereotype the police because the best two examples I have are the complete opposite of each other.

    From what I can gather you’ve had a tough time with racism in your life, yet you still retain an intelligent, mature & rational perspective. That can’t have been easy for you at times I imagine.

    Kudos to you.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    But, crucially – was I vertically profiled? Was that a fair thing to do? Should we stop using ethnicity as an identifier?

    Height is a sliding scale. Someone notably tall in a small group (your scout group) is probably easier to identify. But imagine, as an adult in wider society, if someone called the police and said ‘I saw a tall bloke committing a crime’ and the police arrested you and your kid purely because you were the first tall bloke they bumped into?

    The issue is that people are describing people as ‘a black guy’ and the police are acting on it as if it’s enough detail to work with. It’s not. It’s sometimes understandable (although not forgivable) for white people to give that description because white people will notice blackness first, but it’s not ok for the police to act purely on it.

    Something could be done. Why don’t the police have a book of sample face types in their car they can use to help people give better descriptions? The African continent has more genetic diversity than the rest of the world combined, so you could easily have pictures of generic faces from different parts (e.g. West vs East Africa which are really different if people bother to look) along with ethnic groups from the rest of the world. Would be pretty easy to do no?

    inkster
    Free Member

    mrlebowski,

    It’s not so much what I’ve experienced personally, more a case of what I’ve seen. So when a story hits the news I’m not shocked because I have either seen or know someone who has gone through the same. Having a cosmopolitan family and group of friends I actually feel quite priveledged, that combined with working in the arts sector means I’m so rarely exposed to racist and intolerant views. So on a personal level I feel insulated from reality whilst simultaneously being very conscious that im living in a parallel universe to some of my friends. Thats white priveledge I guess.

    At the end of the day we all nèed good policing and the more policing is in the public eye and under scrutiny the better it will be. We need to ask ourselves the question is it the job of the police to protect and serve the community or to enforce law and order.

    What we’ve seen on many of these videos shot under lockdown is a police force, often the TSG, roaming the empty streets looking to enforce law and order The general reduction of overall crime has led the police to concentrate their efforts in such a way that has revealed underlying systemic prejudices. This is why we’ve seen already grossly disproportionate figures for stop and search multiply exponentially as a usually overstretched police force can now go looking for targets.

    With regards canteen culture I’m not sure it exists in the same way as it once did back in the 80’s. My hunch is that things are more cliquey now. The racist elements are found more in pockets, connected by WhatsApp and Facebook groups and the like and centred within certain departments, perhaps like the TSG in the UK. Notice that the German Police has just disbanded its entire elite special forces group as it had been infiltrated top to toe with Neo Nazis.

    We often talk of good apples and bad apples. In order to sort the good from the bad you need a system to prevent the bad apples infecting the good and at the moment it doesn’t look like the UK police have those systems or enough oversight in place. The police chiefs failed to anticipate what the policing environment would be like under covid and has let their forces on the ground run a little wild. Currently the police are showing similar leadership skills to the Government.

    The poor police management we are witnessing at this time is not only failing the public it is failing its own officers. Its really easy to see that the good officers (the silent majority I would hope) must be as uncomfortable with what they are seeing as we are. I bet there’s a lot of them that want their voices heard too.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Fwiw its why i stopped posting earlier, I was at risk of getting emotionally involved to a point i might have deserved a ban myself,

    I think this is the aim of some posters – not just here but all over the internet.

    I certainly have been goaded into getting myself banned in the past

    Best to walk away – its difficult but I have learned but when faced with folk who do not want to listen or understand then make your point and walk away . I don’t always manage this 😉

    inkster
    Free Member

    TJ,

    We’ve all got to try to be a bit more Beau.

    Noticed that Robert Evans guy was re-tweeting Beau of the fifth column. Beau is the perfect example of not letting your emotions get in the way of something you are passionate about. Something we could all learn from when dealing with massively important topics.

    Kryton57
    Full Member

    https://news.sky.com/story/bianca-williams-met-police-refers-itself-to-watchdog-in-climbdown-after-athlete-complains-of-racial-profiling-12023276

    Some positive movement, Although it’d be interesting to see the profile of the IOPC board, with several people call it an unjustified level of policing, as we have discussed here.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    One in eight young black males in London stopped by police in May About 10,000 black males aged 15 to 25 stopped and searched, of whom 8,000 released with no further action

    https://www.theguardian.com/law/2020/jul/08/one-in-10-of-londons-young-black-males-stopped-by-police-in-may

    Does this sound proportionate to you?

    RustySpanner
    Full Member

    Although it’d be interesting to see the profile of the IOPC board,

    I’ve been having some interesting debates around the issue of positive discrimination recently.
    The ‘All Lives Matter’ crew don’t seem to able to see the importance of starting from a level playing field.
    The same arguments we had in the Labour Party re all female shortlists.

    It’s a hard road, because, in all honesty, some people just don’t, or are unwilling to engage in rational debate.

    However, I have seen some positives over the last few weeks.
    Lazy, rascist stereotyping within the NHS is being challenged at ground level. People are much more willing to speak up.
    It’s happening, it’s real and it is making a difference.

    Much work, many lifetimes, but we must not waste this opportunity.

    Love to all.

    faerie
    Free Member

    Absolutely Tj. Cressida Dick has made an apology to Williams for her distress, not for the way in which the police treated them though, which she said is justified. She still maintains that the Met and the wider police forces are not institutionally racist, despite evidence to the contrary.

    It’s good to hear that people are having conversations and challenging racism, that’s one of the most important things that we can do to work towards equality. We’ve made more progress in the past month than we have done in the past decade, because of those discussions. These conversations are what’s prompted the turnaround from universities and local authorities, although what they’ve offered is purely performance and doesn’t affect change.
    I had an interesting talk today with a guy who has called out Edinburgh City Council for racism in one of its schools, I’m now organising a campaign for a judicial review of SPSO legislation which prevents them investigating conduct, curriculum or discipline in in our agencies and institutions. Anyone know how to do that without £60k – £100k? Legal aid isn’t available for human rights or public law cases, so could I do it by representing myself against the government?

    outofbreath
    Free Member

    Full transcript of the whole incident:

    faerie
    Free Member

    Here’s a good wee video which explains why people of colour are stopped and searched more often

    lamp
    Free Member

    There’s a difference between drug users and drug dealers though.

    Where i used to live in London most of the heroin dealing was carried out by Pakistani and Turkish gangs, cocaine was largely black / Jamaican, Kosovan and Albanian gangs and weed was everyman and his dog!

    The area was well known for it (East). If your target criminal fits a description what are the police meant to do? It’s a difficult one to call for a copper. I wouldnt like to do their job at the moment, they’re damned if they do and damned if they dont.

    I was routinely stopped 20 years ago when i was (a lot!) younger and driving a (bell end alert! :)) Porsche….the police thought i’d either nicked it or i’d borrowed my dads car! I can see why i was pulled as car theft was a big thing in London by young people. I always got out of the car calmly and never had any trouble. I got teh odd producer, but that was it.

    My point being if you have target demographic like the coppers had in my borough, from a law enforement perspetive then anyone who fits that bill is a potential. Unfotunate, but true.

    inkster
    Free Member

    lamp,

    You say unfortunate but true when surely the question should be were the police right or wrong. You might well have been a “bell end” in your youth but the important questions are;

    Where you breaking the law when you were stopped? (Driving erratically etc.)

    Can’t the police run a number plate check to see if the car is reported stolen before they stopped you?

    Could it be that the police who stopped you were jealous of seeing a young person in a Porsche?

    If you are stopped for no good reason then it is not you who is breaking the law it is they.

    And whilst we constantly talk about policing in the inner city, its worth remeberong that under lockdown, he most disproportionate statistics for race bias during stop and search have been found in the rural Counties. I believe Cumbria was the worst with a 9/1 ratio.

    lamp
    Free Member

    I don’t know whether that’s true or not re Cumbria. Say it is, what’s the rationale behind it? Is it because dealers from other cities are moving into rural territories? Has there been an increase in crime with the main suspects fitting a certain description? I would guess Cumbria is predominantly white, so why would a person of colour be there during a lockdown? Or is just because of the colour? I’d be genuiely interested to know, i doubt you’d ever find out the full truth.

    I did have a few lead foot moments in it sometimes to be fair, but you can’t see in any detail as to who is driving a car through the rear windscreen though.

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