So my point is, our local private school is inclusive. They have a mild entrance exam, and then they add a decent amount of value along the way.
They show that as long as the kids are motivated (and by implication the parents), and class sizes are reasonable, then you can provide an excellent education.
The problem is it costs 15k a year per pupil.
I don’t know anything about state school budgets but I think its about 3 or 4 k a year they get per pupil?
This here is your problem.

How much state revenue is lost from private schools having charitable status, have we confirmed that figure higher up in the thread ?

No, I don’t think we have. As far as I can tell Private schools cost the state nothing because the tax lost by charitable status would equally be lost be abolishing. When ‘subsidy’ of private schools was questioned someone mumbled something about army families getting funded boarding schools and then the whole thing was forgotten.

On top of that I’m not even sure anyone has stated why a Private School can’t be a charity under normal charity rules? It seems to have been accepted as fact without any evidence.

What about kids educated at home? All the same arguments apply. Ditto home tutoring.

Anyway, the debate’s been held, the argument’s been won and Labour have quite rightly dropped this counter productive plan.

The problem is it costs 15k a year.
I don’t know anything about state school budgets but I think its about 3 or 4 k a year they get?
.

Indeed but if private schools were banned the incentive to spend more on education would suddenly increase, like I said if its described as the politics of envy to ban them, its the politics of over simplicity to expect it to be done in isolation.

This here is your problem.

The fact that you see it as my problem not societies is the actual problem, if it became your problem too, it might show the need to fix it!!

Indeed but if private schools were banned the incentive to spend more on education would suddenly increase, like I said if its described as the politics of envy to ban them, its the politics of over simplicity to expect it to be done in isolation.

Maybe someone mentioned this to the Labour top tier and after 30 seconds of considering reality they laughed and shelved the idea.

Maybe someone mentioned this to the Labour top tier and after 30 seconds of considering reality they laughed and shelved the idea.

Lucky it went that way. Otherwise they could have got on a roll and banned the RNLI, Air Ambulances & MacMillan Nurses in the interests of improving Sea Rescue/Emergency Medical Help/Terminal Cancer Care.

As t what point would the decision be made that the school is no longer a charity? If you say entrance is only allowed via donation then does that mean many sports clubs can’t be charities.

Otherwise they could have got on a roll and banned the RNLI, Air Ambulances & MacMillan Nurses in the interests of improving Sea Rescue/Emergency Medical Help/Terminal Cancer Care.

The mental gymnastics you perform to get to these conclusion are really quite something, well done!!

As t what point would the decision be made that the school is no longer a charity? If you say entrance is only allowed via donation then does that mean many sports clubs can’t be charities.

13 pages in and I finally googled and I can’t find any evidence that Private Schools aren’t perfectly legal charities and I can’t find any evidence of any significant subsidy.

The mental gymnastics you perform to get to these conclusion are really quite something, well done!!

It’s identical logic. (If you banned private provision of those things “the incentive [for the state] to spend more on [them] would suddenly increase”.)

Otherwise they could have got on a roll and banned the RNLI, Air Ambulances & MacMillan Nurses in the interests of improving Sea Rescue/Emergency Medical Help/Terminal Cancer Care.

The mental gymnastics you perform to get to these conclusion are really quite something, well done!!

Think if all of that money that could be diverted to public services.

Besides, I’m sure it was said tongue in cheek, unlike TJ’s hate filled rants.

The fact that you see it as my problem not societies is the actual problem, if it became your problem too, it might show the need to fix it!!

Not everyone sees it as societies problem at all. You state that it is as an undisputed fact. It isn’t thats only “your” opinion. You have the problem and others with a like opinion, not society as a whole.

Yeah, the successful grammar school near us gets huge parental donations because they don’t end up sending their kids private.

Not everyone sees it as societies problem at all.

The fact that some cant see the poor state of education as a problem for society really does show peoples true colours, surely better educated people might help us solve the productivity gap for example

The fact that some cant see the poor state of education as a problem for society really does show peoples true colours, surely better educated people might help us solve the productivity gap for example

I’m not sure anyone here has said that, they just dispute that closing private schools will achieve that aim.

I’m not sure anyone here has said that, they just dispute that closing private schools will achieve that aim.

And no one has said closing them in isolation would either!

And no one has said closing them in isolation would either!

Oh really?

I think just having more motivated kids would help drive up standards of the others tbh.

Yep really, thats just one aspect of things that could help. Its well evidenced that the opposite isctrue with grammar schools.

Quick back track. Nifty.

In my time teaching I can think of quite a few things that would improve the chances of my pupils that would be more effective than adding 0.75 more motivated pupils per class.

The fact that you see it as my problem not societies is the actual problem, if it became your problem too, it might show the need to fix it!!

sorry – estuary english – “there is YOUR problem” means “there is THE problem”. I wasn’t attempting to make one welsh origin skool teech responsible for the UK’s education. It is all of our problems. I just happen to to choosing to spend my own money on it instead of a new audi and a bigger house, or early retirement. I would much prefer the state schools round here were better then I could give up work tomorrow.

Quick back track. Nifty.

No you just didnt read the context of the post.

In my time teaching I can think of quite a few things that would improve the chances of my pupils that would be more effective than adding 0.75 more motivated pupils per class.

So can I doesnt stopnit being true though

In my time teaching I can think of quite a few things that would improve the chances of my pupils that would be more effective than adding 0.75 more motivated pupils per class.

Agree and it would be as high as 0.75 because after the ban anyone who boards would be schooled abroad, they wouldn’t transfer to state schools for the obvious reason. Presumably *some* of the day kids would also end up abroad although perhaps not many.

…and what about kids who are currently home schooled? Is home schooling not ‘private’? Why don’t the same arguments apply.

Why don’t the same arguments apply.

Cos they don’t have any money, so there is nothing to be jealous of.

ah ffs look at Finland. It’s not inevitable we have to have a system that institutionalises inequality

what about kids who are currently home schooled? Is home schooling not ‘private’? Why don’t the same arguments apply.

If they dont go to school the same arguements dont apply.

If they dont go to school the same arguements dont apply.

Explain?

I think just having more motivated kids would help drive up standards of the others tbh.

Surely, home schooled kids would be at least as good or better source of motivated kid’s for state schools since home schooling parents don’t just pay for their kids education they actually provide it for themselves.

Explain?

because the kids dont go to school, private or state.

Surely, home schooled kids would be at least as good or better source of motivated kid’s

Home schooled kids often have serious SEN that are not well served by traditional classroom settings.

like I said if its described as the politics of envy to ban them, its the politics of over simplicity to expect it to be done in isolation.

Logically yes, but people are working purely from what Labour have specifically, explicitly said they will do in this area. Which is, currently:
1. Abolish private schools.
2.
3.

Can you point out where labour said that, pretty sure they didnt. It was voted on at the conference but hasnt been made policy and I doubt its in the manifesto…is rhat out yet?

 I can think of quite a few things that would improve the chances of my pupils that would be more effective than adding 0.75 more motivated pupils per class.

Most schools wouldn’t even benefit from that number. The ex private school kids would go to those highly ranked state schools in prosperous leafy suburbs. The ones that like asking parents for voluntary/suggested donations. Before long you’d get schools competing for pupils from wealthy families because of the secondary funding they’d bring in. Privilege always finds a way.

Can you point out where labour said that, pretty sure they didnt. It was voted on at the conference but hasnt been made policy

I’m pretty sure they’ve ruled out doing it as of this week, but it *is* Labour policy because according to Labour rules/conventions anything agreed at the Labour conference is by definition Labour Policy.

because the kids dont go to school, private or state.

I think if you rely on (deliberately?) misunderstanding to dodge a point twice in a row you concede the point!

Home schooled kids often have serious SEN that are not well served by traditional classroom settings.

So it is ok for a parent to put their child in the best setting for that child, but only is the child has SEN! Plus I’m pretty sure that many of the *schools* that deal with more demanding SEN kids are private, and those *are* the kids you want in traditional classroom settings.

I think if you rely on (deliberately?) misunderstanding to dodge a point twice in a row you concede the point!

No banning schools for example would have no effect on home schooling as those kids dont go to school. I think its you who misunderstands.

So it is ok for a parent to put their child in the best setting for that child, but only is the child has SEN!

No it SHOULD be ok for any parent to put their kid into a good well funded school, not just a small minority of more affluent parents.

Plus I’m pretty sure that many of the *schools* that deal with more demanding SEN kids are private, and those *are* the kids you want in traditional classroom settings.

Not even sure where to start with this tbh. To summarise though, no, you are profoundly incorrect on both points.

So my point is, our local private school is inclusive.

it costs 15k a year per pupil.

That’s an interesting definition of inclusive.

No lesser rampaging socialist than Warren Buffett is onboard with banning private schools. Although he does require that the kids are then assigned to a state school by random lottery, thus ensuring that the parents with the money, political capital and other means use it to improve those schools.

Pretty sure Buffet is not going to be envious of anyone hereabouts either.

Finland banned private schools over 40 years ago. Now people from around the world are studying that system to improve their own. It’s not perfect by any means but it’s better than most.

To make that work here though, we’d have to get over our ridiculous 17th century holdover attitude about social classes.

I think if you rely on (deliberately?) misunderstanding to dodge a point twice in a row you concede the point!

No

Well, I tried. 5plusn8 understood.

Plus I’m pretty sure that many of the *schools* that deal with more demanding SEN kids are private, and those *are* the kids you want in traditional classroom settings.

you are profoundly incorrect on both points.

My partner is a state school teacher and I am pretty sure that their most demanding SEN kids end up in Private schools. Googling “private sen schools” suggests I’m right and there are many such schools. And sorry you’re right, I wrote “traditional classroom settings” I should have written “state schools”. Sorry, my mistake.

That’s an interesting definition of inclusive.

Selective quoting as you know very well I was talking about private schools that admit based on ability, (the ability to pay is a given). Why do people do this, it just marks you down as someone who can be trusted to play properly and all your posts will just be ignored.

Although he does require that the kids are then assigned to a state school by random lottery, thus ensuring that the parents with the money, political capital and other means use it to improve those schools.

Bit awkward if you live in Scotland and are randomly assigned a school on the Isle of Wight. Or is he advocating assigning a school in the local area by lottery in which case wouldn’t all the wealthy people arrange themselves an address in an area with good local schools?

But even if you were randomly assigned to a local school within (say) 20 miles it would be a little annoying if you randomly got a school 15 miles away when there was a school 500m away.

…and, of course, that only deals with the Day kids. The boarders will simply be educated abroad so those kids will be lost to the system on day one. Which aids the Labour policy of chasing the hated wealthy people away from the Uk but when you consider that ~1pc of people pay ~30pc of uk tax the cost of getting rid of these undesirables will be very high for the rest of us.

…and, of course, that only deals with the Day kids. The boarders will simply be educated abroad so those kids will be lost to the system on day one.

This will definitely be the case. Already been mulled over by the parents at the independent school that my child attends. No chance we would be putting our kids into the state sector. Having had an older child go through the local state system, the difference is mind blowing and we could never contemplate returning. Expect to see independent schools relocating to nearby countries and a rise in exclusivity.

Expect to see independent schools relocating to nearby countrie

Finland?

Ok so lower funding of state school places has been identified as an issue. Not sure how private schools will effect that.

1. Banning private schools would not increase the will to properly fund state schools. The money would need to diverted from elsewhere, a 3 fold increase (based on comments above) would be needed, not going to happen.
2. Removing (otherwise legitmate) charitable status from private schools would generate very little extra income for state schools and probably be outweighed by some marginal private schools closing and extra pupils returning to the state sector.
3. Private school pupils don’t get the states contribution, so they are actually helping to increase the funding per head in state schools compared to if they took up their state school place.

Problems with our state system stem from a demoralised work force, ridiculous tinkering with the management structures like the academy system where schools are now part privatised with the academy trust skimming off serious amounts of money leaving schools even more cash strapped. Political interference, for instance all the schools in Burnley being replaced after an afternoon of mild inter racial disturbances whilst the Victorian schools in nearby Rossendale continue to crumble. Still hasn’t improved inter racial mixing and one of these new comprehensive closed down last year and now stands empty, total waste.

TJ and AA come across as very bitter for some reason, advocating a race to tge bottom which is ironic as that’s an accusation usually levelled at the right by the left.

Basically this whole private school argument started when Boris was made PM (during the Labour confrence IIRC) and the spiteful Momentum crowd thought their perfect ‘revenge’ was to basically close down Eton. Nothing more than that. Obviously the collateral damage of all other private schools would be worth it.

Now it looks like its just taking charitable status away. Do you think for one moment Eton would even notice that – it’d just be 20% slapped on fees and that would just be a rounding error to the parents. Obviously, the legal challenges would take many years/£millions beforehand. I reckon you could start a child in the first year seniors this year and not be affected.

If you close all the private schools people are just going to spend the extra on their mortgage and get closer to the best state schools. I wouldn’t even be surprised if Eton build a load of £5m house around it and that was their ‘catchment’ area.

What do you define as priviledge? Comfortable enough to afford a reasonable house beside a reasonable school? Enough money to afford a PC and internet so you can research the best options for schools? Like it or not we’re on a website where we can debate is it worth buying a third bike just for gravel, or what campervan is best for trips to the Alps.
Unless you’ve sent your kids to the sink estate school in the hope they’ll bring the averages up then we’re all likely to have used some sort of priviledge.

I went to the local comp, got free school meals throughout and wore 2nd hand/hand-me-down shoes (in many colours and forms) for the entirity. Didn’t go away on any trips that needed paying for so I should be nailed on for getting rid, but I just don’t think it would improve anything.

Focus on funding state education to a level that they can start to hold their own and private schools might wither on the vine.

If starting from scratch I wouldn’t allow private nor religious schools but we are where we are.

I don’t think private schools should have charitable status but the most important thing is improving standards in state schools. (with more funding and smaller class sizes etc)

The Private school shut out of public life (politics, media etc) is worrying and needs addressing.