certainly the genetics argument OP referred to indicates that private education confers advantages above the ability of those who go to them, compared to those who dont

The paper you posted earlier appears to undermine that notion.

The kid who lives opposite us goes to our local big private school. He genuinely thinks this makes him better and cleverer than the rest of the kids. In his mind, his higher status in society is already well established at the age of ten.

I went to boarding school for 3 years – last year of GCSE and A levels, before that I was moving around schools every year due to stepfather in military

From my experience my peers were no more intelligent than any other class I spent my time with. I don’t buy the genetics thing at all, the reason I think people do better at private school (based on my experience)

Far smaller class sizes / more 121 time
Staff that genuinely seem to care about the pupil more
Less misbehaving kids
Much better sporting facilities and promotion of sport
Some good experience of leading in 6th form
Leaving with a decent network – peers parents able to give you a hand with work experience

If I could send my kids to private school I would. Fees are pretty massive, I’d have to pick my favourite.

As for it not being fair on those in state school (where mine are/will go) its tough, not a fair world, you could use the argument for any ‘additional service’ – healthcare etc… I knew of some families that were sinking virtually all disposable income into their kids fees, living in modest homes / old cars / no holidays.

Thing is parents who want the best education for their kids will always find a way to game the system.

In my case – the secondary school I should have gone to was atrocious, so my parents sent me to the private (non boarding) school in the centre of town. We weren’t well off and my mother ended up working all hours to pay for most of it and my grandparents chucked in the rest. Academically absolutely worth it, although these days I miss not having done any “practical” subjects.

Another way as mentioned above will be that parents will just move house to make sure they’re in the right postcode for the right school, which will just push up houseprices in those areas and lower them near the “bad” ones, leading to stratification again, just via a different route. The house we live in now is near a good primary school, but the good secondary school is a few miles up the road. The people we bought it from did the move (to actually what seems to be a smaller house) just to change catchment area at the right point in their kids education career.

It’s a lot of fuss over a quite understandable policy for a left leaning Labour party to adopt, They’ll not provide funding for Toffs to go to Toff school… So what, it’s hardly a ground-breaking idea.

It’s a bit of easy class-warfare, they’ve still got to get into power and implement it

It won’t remove the advantage, it will if anything narrow it to a much smaller set of wealthy parents that can afford it, meaning the ‘pool’ of advantage at the ‘top’ of education will shrink rather than opening opportunity to the proles…

And where do they sit on academy schools now? Are they to be fully nationalised?

Most importantly would the funding taken from Eton and co’ be diverted directly to State run schools?

For me as a parent of kids currently going to state school(s), and the offspring of two quite lefty teachers who taught in state comprehensives for ~45 odd years, it’s still not a vote winner. It’s a stab at having a dog-whistle left leaning policy, when the Lib-dems are starting to look like a danger to Labour in an up-coming election…

Thing is parents who want the best education for their kids will always find a way to game the system.

Yes. But ALL schools should be good. In your example, your local secondary school should not have been so bad.

My partner is a teacher, and says there’s a lot of teacher assisted cheating going on in private schools.

People pay a lot of money to get their kids educated and expect results, even if their child is utterly lazy and refuses to do anything.

Education needs to be equal. This is the absolute bottom line. You can have your nice cars and holidays, your au-pairs, your freedom to have inspiring educational holidays. But every kid has the right to good schooling, this is fundamental.

You can never make education equal, unless you make it illegal to purchase after school education and any additional learning facilities at home. It should more be about diverting money that the state would use to unnecessarily subside rich kids’ education to state funded schools

I totally agree every child should have the right to a good education but unless you’re telling me more money is being spent by the state on private schooling than state schooling then I fail to see how abolishing private schools helps this, surely it makes it worse? Unless ofc you’re proposing killing off all the rich kids at the same time you close their schools…

My partner is a teacher, and says there’s a lot of teacher assisted cheating going on in private schools.

care to elaborate?

That said, given that once you correct for the selective nature of private schools state schools outperform them it’s about time that those who go to private schools were afforded the benefits of a state school education.

My kid’s state schools are incredibly good, far better than the local private school I have occasional contact with.

However, don’t worry Labour are on the case, they’re coming after state schools as well by abolishing OFSTED:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-49785130

That’s equality, spoil private schools and make state schools worse to compensate.

Prince Harry and the art teacher producing his coursework at Eton

Can someone point to something that details the ‘funding’ that private schools get? (and not regarding charitable status because that’s not money going to the schools)

Well, thanks to Kimbers I’ve now gone down a rabbit hole reading about the statistical robustness or lack of it in genome wide association studies.

Thanks a lot dude.

God damn it

they’re coming after state schools as well by abolishing OFSTED:

Or, more accurately, replacing it.
I do wonder what the venn diagram for those supporting private schools but also saying they believe in a meritocracy would be.

Aggghhhhh – the politics of Envy
How does closing down private schools improve the quality of state education? If we improved the quality of state education, then private schools would cease to exist.

Horseshit.

First of all the whole “envy” thing is bollocks. I come from money. There I said it. I was blessed to have been raised in a home where my dad was in the right business at the right time, and so I grew up with no want. So I don’t really “envy” private school stakeholders. The “envy” card always gets played by those who don’t want to wrestle with the actual issues.

Anyway, I am a strong advocate of improvement in educational provision across the board, but it’s a bit of a chicken-egg problem. Mainstream education doesn’t get the funding it needs, coupled with a lack of vision and aspiration for the sector that sees it languish and unable to substantially improve. Consequently private education retains its “superior” position. Then, as long as the “superior” private sector continues to turn out self-satisfied politicians, there will never be the will to substantially improve mainstream education.

The kid who lives opposite us goes to our local big private school. He genuinely thinks this makes him better and cleverer than the rest of the kids. In his mind, his higher status in society is already well established at the age of ten.

This. A girl I know who chose to leave her local private school says to anyone who will listen that the first words out of the mouth of her form tutor there were, “Welcome to the One Percent”.
Not, “Welcome, girls, to your new school. With great advantage comes great responsibility”, or anything like that, “Welcome to the effing One Percent”. It’s sickening.

My partner is a teacher, and says there’s a lot of teacher assisted cheating going on in private schools.

I worked half my teaching career in the state system and half in the private, teaching in a coursework heavy subject. I have seen nothing personally to suggest this is any more than rumour and supposition.

Mixed feelings on the charitable status thing. The title is frankly absurd. But do those out of the system actually know what it means in reality? I’d be intrigued to know the level of knowledge of what the benefit is in reality and what it ‘costs’ to get it. Personally I would advocate that it stayed for the benefits the local community get from the schools, the bursary education that would be lost and an acknowledgment that 610000 places in state schools are saved. But international students should have to pay VAT on their fees and the business rates discount should be dependant on the percentage of international students in the school.

The system is about to be put under pressure massively anyway and that’s before charitable status changes one way or another. Changes to the teacher pension scheme happening very soon mean the employer contribution for employers in the independent sector are about to go through the roof to the extent that most independent school will not be able to afford to offer it as a benefit for their teachers. Teachers in independent schools don’t get paid much more than those in the state sector and generally work much longer hours. Quite simply once schools fall out of the TPS working in an independent school will be looking like a poor deal and it will become a tough recruitment drive.

Oh, and how are we feeling about kids in state schools who have parents who pay for after school or holiday tuition? In the same camp ethically?

Or, more accurately, replacing it.

Spending a fortune on abolishing OFSTED and then spending a second fortune on reinstating it with a new name? Really?

raybanwomble

Member
Well, thanks to Kimbers I’ve now gone down a rabbit hole reading about the statistical robustness or lack of it in genome wide association studies.

Thanks a lot dude.

God damn it

all studies are underpowered

Interesting that the discussion tends to focus on private schools when some of the selective state schools (Grammar but these days not limited to Grammar) end up with per pupil funding that is much more that the bulk of state schools and clearly massively unfair.

The best line in a film I’ve heard in a while “if you don’t use every advantage you have and all the power you have to improve the life of your children, you’ve either never had any power or you’ve never had any children”

Like private health care, people will pay large amounts of money to ensure they get what they need, but those same people would scream blue murder if anyone suggested paying that same money into the state system (say in taxes) and then everyone could have what they need.

Like private health care, people will pay large amounts of money to ensure they get what they need, but those same people would scream blue murder if anyone suggested paying that same money into the state system (say in taxes) and then everyone could have what they need.

This is utter bollocks. I’d happily pay more tax, the problem is:
a) successive govts have misused the tax we pay and **** everything up.
b) lots of big companies and rich people pay no tax at all, if they paid theirs the money would not be an issue.

Whats the point in me paying more tax when it will make no difference?

This. A girl I know who chose to leave her local private school says to anyone who will listen that the first words out of the mouth of her form tutor there were, “Welcome to the One Percent”.
Not, “Welcome, girls, to your new school. With great advantage comes great responsibility”, or anything like that, “Welcome to the effing One Percent”. It’s sickening.

This reminds me of my old chemistry teacher (an old school lefty, it was Lanarkshire after all) who told us that we all had to work much harder and better as we were up against the “Fiona Ponsinby Smythe’s” of the world who all had far more privileges in this world.

Aggghhhhh – the politics of Envy

It’s nothing of the sort.

I’m happy for some people to have more. It’s essential, because as we saw in communist societies there needs to be an incentive one way or the other and money is currently our simplest option.

The key issue though is that there needs to be a baseline available to everyone, and that needs to be as good as possible. Not good given the funding, or good for the proles, but EVERYONE needs to start with the best education. As long as private schools exist, they will compete with state schools for kids of rich and successful people in high power jobs and this will drive segregation and limit people’s experience and sense of identity. Not only that but these kids would benefit hugely from going to school with the rest of the hoi polloi.

Once you correct for the selective nature of private schools they do not provide a better education.

But they are allowed to be selective, aren’t they? This is a big part of it. And they are selective by default because you need money to go there.

How does closing down private schools improve the quality of state education?

What do you think would happen to the local shitty comprehensive if the kid of a Tory landowner was forced to go there? It’d improve pretty damn quickly wouldn’t it? The issue is one of segregation, and that you can buy confidence and status for your kids.

David Cameron was mocked for saying ‘we’re all in this together’. Private education is one big reason why we’re not.

It’s not often I get annoyed by another poster on here but @DT78

However married to a teacher of 27yrs experience, the statement “Staff that genuinely seem to care about the pupil more” real – what a crock…. There are teachers who care and those that don’t but to assume that private teachers care more than state school teachers is ridiculous.

If it wasn’t for the Fiona Ponsonby-Smythe’s of the world then most of the kids that I went to school with would have nobody  worthwhile to burgle.

the hoi polloi.

Must…resist…

polygenic genome wide association scores of intellectual disability only show risk scores for IQ below 80. Otherwise there is little association between genetics and IQ. There are some large studies performed. For scary articles look up Stephen Hsu.

In fact, this thread is frankly full of some ignorance and prejudice. I work my arse off, I have borderline diabetes from sitting 12 hrs behind a desk, my stomach is playing up, my hair falling out, I spend every spare minute with the kids. I am meeting my requirements as a father to do the best financially and socially by my kids. Because I want to by the way.
And now I am immoral because the local schools suck, and I don’t want to send my very intelligent but very very socially awkward daughter there and send her to a much better school where its working out quite well.
The problem with ideologies (like socialism and capitalism ) is that there is no reality considered.
Some left wing social justice types are self obsessed and won’t look down the barrel at real peoples lives whilst pontificating about the latest cod theory. They piss me off nearly as much as the right.

This is utter bollocks. I’d happily pay more tax, the problem is:
a) successive govts have misused the tax we pay and **** everything up.
b) lots of big companies and rich people pay no tax at all, if they paid theirs the money would not be an issue.

Whats the point in me paying more tax when it will make no difference?

You are one of the few that would happily pay more tax, it seems.
I couldn’t agree more, if everyone paid their fair share of taxes that would be great. Doesn’t mean that people who pay for private health care or schooling would be willing to put it into the general pool thought.

You are assuming it will make no difference, but that is more about the government than anything else.
So on one hand you are willing to pay more tax but then you ask why you should pay more tax?

Otherwise there is little association between genetics and IQ.

Yeah that’s IQ though. You can’t get people to agree on what that is, whether it exists, and how to reliably test it if it does

There’s lots of studies that show a heritable component to school performance. Some show quite a lot – over 50%. Doesn’t mean what most people think it means though.

Actually many folk would pay more tax – in Scotland we voted almost 50% for a party on a manifesto of raising taxes

On private schools – if they didn’t exist then the middle class parents might agitate to improve local schools. Indeed with those middle class kids there they would improve anyway

End the charitable status, tax them as the businesses they are, make them conformn to the national curriculum and I have no major issue with them. I have a huge issue that a part of my taxes effectivly goes to subsidising Eaton. that is abhorrent .

Mind you – they might produce better school exam results but it is well known that for the same school exam results private school pupils do worse in further education and of course the schools like eton do damage people badly and are breeding grounds for nepotism and the reinforcement of privaledfge and the smaller private schools are often awful – not my opinion – that of education professionals I know

Really?

No. Do you want to try again preferably first actually bothering to get a clue about it rather than just making stuff up.
There are almost certainly pros and cons to the proposals but there really is no point just inventing shit.

Half the problem with the public school system is the old boy and girl network. A group of people who would rather deal with an idiot who is ‘one of us’ rather than someone who is far better qualified and suited to the job who isn’t.

I can’t imagine that Richard Branson would have got through the front door of the bank when he started out if he hadn’t been to Stowe. I’ve met plenty of people who quite seriously question how businesses fail, when their business borrowing is entirely through their family trust rather than a bank.

I used to get upset about this sort of thing but I’m just resigned to it now. The public school system is just a symptom, although why the schools have charitable status has always baffled me. Their charitable activities have always seemed to be the minimum possible to keep the charities commission off their back

You are one of the few that would happily pay more tax, it seems.
I couldn’t agree more, if everyone paid their fair share of taxes that would be great.

Absolutely. The fair rate is under half what I pay. Lets get cracking.

For me @molgrips touched on the most important reason to shut private schools. If the vast majority of people who end up in power had little to no contact with the “hoi polloi” during their formative years, no experience of the state education system, and there is no likelihood of their children having any experience of it either. Then there’s little chance they are going to be motivated to do anything about making it better, and even less chance of having any idea what they could do, even if they were.

Politicians and people with power and influence are just like everybody else, they only care about stuff that effects them, so if you want them to care about education, healthcare or anything else, you’d better make sure it effects them as much as everyone else. That’s why allowing people to buy themselves out of societies systems is such a bad idea, it’s a recipe for neglect.

Yes its about successive governments. How come in Norway and Finland they have very few private schools?
I will answer, its because they have not got governments packed with self serving scum who spend tax on projects that make them or their pals/families richer or build edifices to themselves.

I said, I would happily pay more tax -however I don’t want to because these twits will waste it, and there are the super rich who pay eff all…

Actually many folk would pay more tax – in Scotland we voted almost 50% for a party on a manifesto of raising taxes

At the risk of derailing the topic people voted for taxes to rise that they themselves wouldn’t generally be paying. I’d have a lot more sympathy with your position if the vote was for an increase to all taxation brackets. There would be a lot more money raised too.

I’d have a lot more sympathy with your position if the vote was for an increase to all taxation brackets.

I voted for it knowing full well that i’d pay a big chunk more and that that would also mean that i’d be subsidising others who would pay less. It just seemed fair.

I don’t think i’m unusual in that regard.

Must…resist…

No, Flashy, go ahead. I’ll just point out that when foreign words or phrases are brought into English they no longer follow the rules of their original language. There are numerous examples of foreign phrases becoming adopted and used as nouns. Out of interest, do you speak Greek or did you just read that on the internet like I did?

It’s a lot less than you’d think. Parental attitudes and support to education (rather than their intelligence) are better indicators of performance.

Just wondering if anyone else picked up on that distinction ?

mahhowlett, I disagree, because its based on the assumption that ALL private schools only have the rich and privileged. In fact MOST are populated with kids from all walks. Its a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Maybe ban Eton?
That’s my point about prejudice. Most private schools are not like Eton. That’s why you have never heard of them.