Tesla’s look dated ?

I just think they look like a Mondeo, nothing impressive, nothing inspiring, just a dull commuter / rep wagon

Those American names really do sum up American’s approach to cars.

I’ve always disliked Tesla styling – in fact I am sure I have said it on here before that they seem to struggle with designing a front end without a grille as a focal point. I love the interior design for it’s minimalism, but the exterior doesn’t look minimal, it just looks like a half-set flavour-free jelly.

For me, some of the nicest new designs (aside from the Hyundai which I love) are coming from Peugeot.

But saying that – they’re nowhere near as bad as the new BMWs.

The beaver teeth on the iX don’t look too bad in the flesh. I think its the position of the number plate that ruins it.
I have an iX3 on order, it reminds me of the 2 Ronnies when I look at the grill 🙂

looks can be a bit deceiving. a normal car is about 1.8m wide (golf is the example I went for). The polestar is 6cm wider (and only 1cm wider than a model 3)

Is it a Polestar 2? The width measurement of 1859 millimeters corresponds to the width of the Polestar 2- 2020 without exterior mirrors and the value of 1985 millimeters with mirrors unfolded. That compares to 2065mm for 2021 Ford Transit. That would feel like quite a big car on the road.

They were dated when they came out imo. However as some of the car jorno’s have been saying for years it’s difficult now to get a shape that is unique as increasingly the wind tunnel  dictates the design.

Personally I’d rather have a boring looking car that does 100 miles more on a full charge than a styled car.

Personally I’d rather have a boring looking car that does 100 miles more on a full charge than a styled car.

I can understand that sentiment but, out of interest, how do the Teslas stack up against competitors? Do they get any better range on a like-for-like basis? (Genuine question).

The Model S is going to look pretty dated when the Polestar Precept comes out. Guess they have time to do a facelift before then.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry-news-tech%2C-development-and-manufacturing/polestar-precept-be-developed-uk-base

However as some of the car jorno’s have been saying for years it’s difficult now to get a shape that is unique as increasingly the wind tunnel  dictates the design.

Unique doesn’t have to be a look from the 90s.

Do they get any better range on a like-for-like basis? (Genuine question).

Not so much these days especially when you bring the price in too.

Not so much these days especially when you bring the price in too.

I suppose it might become a bigger factor depending on how taxation and road pricing pans out.

If it’s taxed like petrol on each kw then range will go back to being less important than efficiency, so sleek designs and lighter cars like the smaller version of the 3 will win out.

Whereas the “just throw batteries and money at it” SUV’s like the Mustang, E-tron, etc will suffer.

There are a few decent looking American cars out at the moment (not sure where they were designed though): Corvette Stingray, Challenger Hellcat, Bronco, Venom F5 (not sure if that’s released yet)

Those aren’t normal everyday cars though.

Check out the Chevrolet Malibu:

https://www.chevrolet.com/cars/previous-year/malibu

If it’s taxed like petrol on each kw then range will go back to being less important than efficiency, so sleek designs and lighter cars like the smaller version of the 3 will win out.

Not sure what they’ll do. The reason for taxing cars by engine size is that bigger engines are less efficient. Not so with EVs. They might just tax based on efficiency directly.

The one way to save the small efficient EV is with rapid charging. If my car with its 38kWh battery could be charged at 350kW then it’d probably take significantly less time than a toilet break to go from 10-80% and barely more than stopping for petrol, and that would keep you going for another 2.5 hours on the road.

The reason for taxing cars by engine size is that bigger engines are less efficient.

Technically you are taxed on emissions. Bigger engines can often be more efficient for a given use.

I dont have an answer for how to do it, especially when there is a sizable transition period where there are many ICE cars still about, but not enough to suitably fill the coffers.

Best I can come up with is just taxing electricity, and keep the ICE rules as is until they die out.

Car, toaster or hot tub, pay a percentage on what you consume. Different rates for off peak, and related to solar and wind capability.

Typical ICE car costs about 10-15p per mile in fuel of which about 50% is tax. Seems a EV is 1-3p/mile on home charging.
If that went up to 7-8p per mile? Still viable.

Typical ICE car costs about 10-15p per mile in fuel of which about 50% is tax. Seems a EV is 1-3p/mile on home charging.
If that went up to 7-8p per mile? Still viable.

Once the price of cars comes down as the masses take them up, so the cost to run them will go up to balance it out. Makes me laugh when I hear some people get excited as its only costing them 2-3p a mile for the 10K they do a year, when its cost them £15-£20K more for the car than the ICE “version” of it.
Running it as a company car, i’ll save a fair bit on my BIK – but those benefits will decrease in the long term. Though it would be nice if they kept it low for cars bought now to encourage people to hang on to them a bit longer, rather than change them after 2-years

Hopefully mine will be fully charged by my solar/batteery set up, so free.

The one way to save the small efficient EV is with rapid charging. If my car with its 38kWh battery could be charged at 350kW then it’d probably take significantly less time than a toilet break to go from 10-80% and barely more than stopping for petrol, and that would keep you going for another 2.5 hours on the road.

Unfortunately it works the other way around. You’re limited to charging at multiples of the batteries capacity. So a great big 100kwh battery that does 400 miles could probably do 20kw/80 miles charge in minutes. A 20kwh battery in a city car on the other hand would need plugging in overnight to go from 0-100%. Because twofold: They can charge quickest across the middle of their capacity so 5x 40-60% charges is much quicker than 1x 0-100%. And if the charger can supply it then (approximately) it will eventually take the same time to go from 0-100% regardless of the actual capacity as big batteries are just multiple small ones in parallel.

I think this is why big EV’s will win over small ones. Their batteries get so much less abuse relatively so they last so much longer. A leaf might struggle to do 8 years of commutes that use 80% of its capacity, a Tesla sized car battery barely notices.

I’m not a great fan of ours, it certainly looks a bit odd from the front (M3P). I do like the minimalist interior though. Swapping between that & our other (soon to go) normal car feels like stepping back in time.

I forgive it though, as an a to b tool, it’s brilliant.

You’re limited to charging at multiples of the batteries capacity.

Yes but the maximum charge current as a multiple of C is one of the things that will change in the future.

Hopefully mine will be fully charged by my solar/batteery set up, so free.

Free apart from the capital investment of the solar/battery set-up…

edit – ignore i misread

Unfortunately it works the other way around. You’re limited to charging at multiples of the batteries capacity. So a great big 100kwh battery that does 400 miles could probably do 20kw/80 miles charge in minutes. A 20kwh battery in a city car on the other hand would need plugging in overnight to go from 0-100%. Because twofold: They can charge quickest across the middle of their capacity so 5x 40-60% charges is much quicker than 1x 0-100%. And if the charger can supply it then (approximately) it will eventually take the same time to go from 0-100% regardless of the actual capacity as big batteries are just multiple small ones in parallel.

I think this is why big EV’s will win over small ones. Their batteries get so much less abuse relatively so they last so much longer. A leaf might struggle to do 8 years of commutes that use 80% of its capacity, a Tesla sized car battery barely notices.

I have always wondered if a smaller EV could be designed with a removable battery that you went to a service centre and dropped out your discharged one to replace with a full one. A system would measure the charge remaining in the one handed in and that would discount the charge for the new one. Suddenly you no longer need to charge in the street if you don’t live in a leafy neighbourhood of cars parked on drives.

It’s clearly got massive flaws with compromises to functionality and handling if the battery pack(s) had to be positioned to be readily removable but the current situation is not without issues as it is – just a different compromise.

Obviously battery replacement would have to a mechanised rather than a manual handling task. And I’d imagine standardisation between makes and models would have to be a thing.

But then again, come the EV revolution I thought that cities would be full of electric twizzy style vehicles so what do I know. People are addicted/need lardy big vehicles it seems.

I have the S and love it, i have never thought it looks particularly dull, a bit corporate perhaps, but you don’t see that from the inside, plus it’s great to drive, so am completely sold on them.

The 3 however i thought they could have done much better on the design, its not inspiring, but it is the first generation, so lets see how it develops?!

@banana fair point about infotainment while charging.

convert

I have always wondered if a smaller EV could be designed with a removable battery that you went to a service centre and dropped out your discharge on to replace with a full one. A system would measure the charge remaining in the one handed in and that would discount the charge for the new one. Suddenly you no longer need to charge in the street if you don’t live in a leafy neighbourhood of car parked on drives.

It’s clearly got massive flaws with compromises to functionality and handling if the battery pack(s) had to be positioned to be readily removable but the current situation is not without issues as it is – just a different compromise.

Obviously battery replacement would have to a mechanised rather than a manual handling task. And I’d imagine standardisation between makes and models would have to be a thing.

But then again, come the EV revolution I thought that cities would be full of electric twizzy style vehicles so what do I know. People are addicted/need lardy big vehicles it seems.

There’s a system like this in China by a company called Nio

The Renault Fleunce was designed for a rapid battery swap, Convert. They never built the infrastructure in the dealerships though. The car was flop due to very poor range. I borrowed one, it was not a good car and the range useless for anything but a commute. The idea of changing battery 9 times to cross France was crazy.

The only way they can put 2-300 miles of range into a car is by making the battery casing part of the chassis. So then it’s clearly going to be difficult to swap it over. When you consider that you can recharge an Ioniq 5 in about 20 mins if the chargers are powerful enough then it’s not really a problem woeth addressing IMO.

The only way they can put 2-300 miles of range into a car is by making the battery casing part of the chassis.

Is that with historic, current or likely future battery technology?

I do wonder if the idea of swappable batteries is being overlooked for reasons of car buying market and technology limitations – rather than ‘real’ barriers.

The only way they can put 2-300 miles of range into a car is by making the battery casing part of the chassis.

The Zoé has a swapable battery and is in that range.

I’m suprised at how important people think the looks of a car are. The Tesla was/is th ebest selling car in Europe yet you people slag it off because you percieve it’s looks ans being dated. I find them quite timeless, go back to the sixties and you’ll find GTs with similar lines.

Do you buy a car to admire it from the outside or Drive. Some modern designs are horrible places to be, claustrophic, poor visibility, so poor they need cameras. From the inside looking out the Model 3 is one of the rare modern cars I’ve been impressed by. But then what would I know, the Fiat 131 is the car I’ve found easiest to place on the road. And in terms of styling I liked the 90s Pugs:

Even with crumpled whell arches.

I do wonder if the idea of swappable batteries is being overlooked for reasons of car buying market and technology limitations – rather than ‘real’ barriers.

I don’t. As Ed said, it was tried and failed miserably, meanwhile everything else moved on to the point where pretty much all issues have been solved and we just need charging infrastructure now.

I’m suprised at how important people this the looks of a car are.

It’s not that important really, but there are other options that look nicer and aren’t worse, so why not choose the better looking one?

I have always wondered if a smaller EV could be designed with a removable battery that you went to a service centre and dropped out your discharged one to replace with a full one. A system would measure the charge remaining in the one handed in and that would discount the charge for the new one. Suddenly you no longer need to charge in the street if you don’t live in a leafy neighbourhood of cars parked on drives.

But then you’ve got to deal with the spare batteries and build a mini kwickfit staffed by robots to change them.

Given the expansion of public charging points I think most people will end up with their cars fluctuating between 95% and 100% charged because that’s all they will use 90% of the time driving to work or the supermarket.

Even my car use (12k-15k miles a year but crammed into a 4 month block) the actual number of journeys where I’d need to charge mid-way is probably in single figures. Specifically I’ve got 2 months in Newcastle coming up. I’ve already asked I’m provided with an apartment with a parking space so I can leave the van there though and get the train. Because; the environment, and no one in their right mind really wants to drive 300 miles in one go, that’s what trains are for.

I’m suprised at how important people think the looks of a car are. The Tesla was/is th ebest selling car in Europe yet you people slag it off because you percieve it’s looks ans being dated.

It’s not hugely important, but given the price, build quality, unpleasant interior and now lack of advantage in range there are better options which are also better looking. It’s rapidly lose the market in Europe now there is a growing range from the mainstream manufacturers.

I think most people will end up with their cars fluctuating between 95% and 100% charged because that’s all they will use 90% of the time driving to work or the supermarket.

I hope people will learn that it’s better charging to less than 90% unless you’re about to do a long distance trip. Mode B regeneration doesn’t work (or doesn’t work as well) when the battery is full (or nearly full) so you lose one-pedal driving and waste energy producing brake dust.

It’s rapidly lose the market in Europe now there is a growing range from the mainstream manufacturers

Wasn’t the Model 3 the best selling car in Europe last month?

I’m suprised at how important people think the looks of a car are.

I’m surprised that you are surprised .
I would imagine it’s fairly high up the priority list of most people when choosing a car.

Wasn’t the Model 3 the best selling car in Europe last month?

Yes

As proof that tastes vary, this is the first post on another thread:

I bought an absolutely beautiful Volvo XC90 last week

It’s not hugely important, but given the price, build quality, unpleasant interior and now lack of advantage in range there are better options which are also better looking. It’s rapidly lose the market in Europe now there is a growing range from the mainstream manufacturers.

As ours is a work car, we don’t have confirmation bias, but to counter – what else is there to compare it to?

Everyone keeps talking about the New Ionic 5 as the Model 3 killer & it is utterly woeful inside by comparison.

I’m fortunate/unfortunate that bough to have driven a lot of different EV’s now & there is literally a handful of them I would consider over a Tesla. They are all double, triple or more times the price.

Competition is a good thing, so the more the merrier.

As ours is a work car, we don’t have confirmation bias, but to counter – what else is there to compare it to?

BMW i4, Merc EQE 350 and Seat Cupra.

I wish that manufacturers would make smaller cars. The Model 3 is the upper edge of acceptable to me. The polestar and the jag are just enormous. I live in a valley with narrow lanes and don’t understand why people buy big vehicles when you just end up reversing for miles to be able to squeeze past each other.

They do, and plenty of them, but if you want an EV version, you might get a range of 80 miles or so, which is fine for city driving, where there’s loads of charging available, but in rural areas, not so practical.
Plus, cars are getting bigger anyway to accommodate all of the safety features demanded by governments, so lots of extra airbags, side impact protection, etc.
My current car, a Fiesta-based EcoSport, is nearly ten inches wider than my old, 51-plate Octavia! 9.55”, in fact. The engine is about the size of an A4 sheet of paper, apparently, sans transmission and all other fittings, so the car is fairly short, but it’s all about crash protection. It’s possible to make a highly crash resistant car, like the Smart fourtwo, but difficult to scale up.
People keep on about big SUV’s, but I drove an Insignia for a month, and that’s bloody huge! Sure, it’s not tall, but honestly, it barely fit onto my car parking area out front, the rear overhung the path behind it, and poked out over the footpath outside the house! Mondeo’s are the same.
The new Lucid Air, developed by a Welshman previously involved with Lotus, is incredibly sleek, but in order to get the aerodynamics, it’s almost featureless, really. And bloody expensive! But that’s almost inevitable – needing to sell to people with money willing to take the plunge, while the facilities are developed to build cheaper cars to scale up production.
Top-end one does offer 512 mile range, something the Tesla Plaid S could deliver, but Musk reckons nobody wants or needs! Dick!

Lucid Air:

Teslas make Vectras look fresh. The SUV variant makes an X6 look passable.
Hideous cars!

Have you ever seen or driven an original Vectra? I have, extensively. Ghastly, horrible car, bland styling and slow, and truly one of the most uncomfortable cars it’s ever been my misfortune to have spend several hours in, hours of misery I can never get back. Loathsome things, and honesty, as we have at least half a dozen Teslas on site at any one time, I can say there is no comparison, the Tesla is infinitely better.
Would I buy one? No, there are aspects to the internal ergonomics I have a fundamental disagreement with.
I wouldn’t buy the Polestar either, no way I’ll trust a car car using Android and Google as it’s entire infotainment system. And they’re not so big, I’ve seen a couple about, they’re certainly no bigger than a Vectra or a V60.

Vectra:

Tesla S:

Lol! I didn’t say they were better…. just had fresher styling than Teslas. IMHO.