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On another note if Wout wants to maintain his superhero status he might be well advised to get out of that team.
Maybe there is no doping and he knows it or maybe he's doping too? I mean, a big lad like him, a proper roleur setting the pace in the mountains day after day, that can't be right either can it?
Speculation is stupid.
Great stage win for Felix Gall, but you know deep down AG2R will be thinking "still not French though"
Three weeks riding has really taken its toll on Pog. As for Vingo.......I think it is for his own good that he actually tied up bit at the end.
Think Vingegaard could be the most unpopular winner of a bike race since Vinokourov won the London Olypmic road race 😀.
How so? He's trained for one race all year and his sacrifice has (apparently, we'll see on Sunday) paid off. In interviews he seems like a pleasant bloke, so I'm not sure where the animosity is coming from.
Or a clear case of having a couple of bad days. That happens, it doesn’t mean the other guy is cheating. Especially not when one considers the long season and injury disrupted preparation Pogacar had.
Yeah, its not like hes just wiped the floor with the other 150 or so either. Puts is a stellar performance AFTER a stellar performance, whilst racing FullGas from the start to give us the fastest Tour to date 😀
Nah, hes not cheating, no suree Lance Vingegaard 😉
a proper roleur setting the pace in the mountains day after day, that can’t be right either can it?
Possibly not, but knowing his history and abilities I think Wout's had quite an underwhelming tour this year. Even as a domestique he's not been at last year's level. I think the key thing here is the relative performance of Vingegaard and everyone else. Is it likely that this year all the other top contenders are so far behind him when previously they weren't?
yet people are acting like he blitzed everybody.
He didn't need to blitz everybody today to raise suspicions, he did that yesterday. Today just underlined them.
Think it was the way he set off when pog popped. He was going at a right rate up that hill, he slowed down towards the end though so maybe it isn't all that obvious.
I thought Vingegaard was going to get close to catching Gall when Pogacar dropped. He didn't really have to ride cautiously and worry about being exploding and losing time as he was so far ahead of the broken Pog and everyone else. Kuss and then Kelderman were there to pace for him and yet he only reduced the gap to Gall by about a minute, it's pretty normal for GC guys to rip much bigger chunks of time out of the break on the final climb - although not sure how much work Gall had done previously in such a large break and with 2 team mates in there.
"I’m not sure where the animosity is coming from" - some of it perhaps from the fact that he's not Pogacar who is just much more charismatic and easier to love, and also that TJV are becoming the dominant team. Agree that Vingegaard does seem like a nice fellow.
If Roglic wins the Vuelta then TJV will have the clean sweep of grand tours. Pogacar needs to go and do super-dom duties for Ayuso by denying Roglic maximum bonuses on all the uphill finishes!
Or a clear case of having a couple of bad days
Did Pogacar have a bad day in the TT? If you took Jonas out of the equation it would have been hailed as incredible. Unbeatable. Maybe he did have a bad day, but everybody else must have been having a worse one. Putting over a minute into everybody else isn't ordinarily a bad day by anybody's standards.
Listening to The Move this morning, and they reckoned that the last time there was a split as large as the one Jonas produced, you'd need to go back to Jacques Anquetil in 1961. And Jonas did that against somebody who had already completely smashed the rest of the field.
It's quite extraordinary.
^^Yup,and poor Carlos trapped in a Yates sanwich 😉
Will be good to see what happens with that on the Belfort stage. 🙂
Puts is a stellar performance AFTER a stellar performance, whilst racing FullGas from the start
If that was what had happened then maybe you'd have a point but that isn’t what happened.
For a start it wasn't two stellar performances, it was one, today was down to Pogacar cracking. Also, Vingegaard hasn't raced full gas, with one or two exceptions he's been following wheels.
The competition this year is so poor it makes it seem more exceptional.
There were always only 2 contenders Pog and Vin; and Pog has been on a wing and a prayer to make it to the race after his early season injury. It's not hugely unexpected that he could keep the pace at the start of the tour but then fade away in week 3. Vin on the other hand has had an interrupted run in on his own terms.
Other than that it's a fairly underwhelming field which is partly shown up by the number of TJV and UAE support riders still at the top of the leaderboard.
Looking at the riders (other than Pog) and the time gaps to Vin then they're not really unexpected at effectively the end of the Tour against their previous results/current form.
On today's stage Gall and Vin "went" at about the same point, Vin closed about one minute on him, a relative unknown with 1 professional win to his name, it's hardly earth shattering. His speed was in comparison to the dying embers of a breakaway, the better of the riders in it were able to hold on (and beat him) when he caught them.
The competition this year is so poor it makes it seem more exceptional
Compared to?
One wonders if the tumble Pog had early on was a factor in his performance not being up to his usual standard.
Adam Yates for 2nd on the podium would be great.
The most telling thing about these comments is you can pretty much tell who's watched or listened to the tour as it happened and who's skimmed the highlights.
Adam Yates for 2nd on the podium would be great.
Would UAE let him overtake Pogacar?
Compared to?
Maybe 5-10 years ago when there were genuine contenders from multiple teams that needed to be managed/marked by (usually) Sky. 2016/18 you could make genuine cases for Quintana, Uran, Bardet, Valverde, Mas, Porte, Martin, Contador and Pinot as genuine contenders going into the races on top of whoever was the Sky 1/2.
Would UAE let him overtake Pogacar?
They may not have any choice in the matter. Do you let both riders slide off the podium or send A Yates up the road to defend his current spot/improve upon it?!
Better to have a UAE rider in second, even if it's not Pogacar, than to have no-one on the podium.
Still another hilly day in the Vosges to come... Tomorrow is flat though so hopefully a day where they can sit there and recover a bit.
Adam Yates for 2nd on the podium would be great.
Would UAE let him overtake Pogacar?
This is a great question!
this is a great question
There would be no point unless Pogacar cracked again on the last mountain stage.
They already told Yates to ignore Poj and try for the stage win today. If he's injured or fatigued, we may not see him tomorrow, or we'll see him riding for Yates,
Pog is still 3 min clear of second. He’s had one bad day. No way is he supporting Yates in the coming days
already excited about next years duel between the pair of them
I don't dislike Pog but I do dislike the way the media seem to want him to win everything just so they can get all excited about him winning everything. Hence, I was pretty pleased to watch the wheels fall off. (not literally)
Bit disappointed for Rodriguez though - obviously his performance has been a relative surprise but if he'd been full team leader from the start I reckon he'd have the final podium place sewn up.
He’s had one bad day.
Did you see yesterday?
Did you see yesterday?
the day he was 1m 13s up on the rest of the peloton (bar 1) on a 22km TT
Turns out that the moto that stalled on the climb which then held up Vingegaard was none other than Thomas Voeckler who was commentating for French TV!
He and the pilot have been barred from the race for a day.
Not sure why the pillion gets fined. It’s not his fault that the driver made an error
Very strange decision
I think comparisons to Tours before have their place, but...
Everyone knew this was between just two riders WAY before the Grand Depart
Everyone knew that Pogačar came into it at a disadvantage
Everything that has come to pass could have been, and sort of was, predicted
Just because you are disappointed that it wasn't closer, doesn't really mean it should have been.
And if they are doping on anywhere near the scale that US Postal was, under the testing conditions currently out there, then there is some proper trout tickling going on in them thar pharmaceutical fields...
Maybe 5-10 years ago when there were genuine contenders from multiple teams that needed to be managed/marked by (usually) Sky. 2016/18 you could make genuine cases for Quintana, Uran, Bardet, Valverde, Mas, Porte, Martin, Contador and Pinot as genuine contenders going into the races on top of whoever was the Sky 1/2.
Add Roglic (in a different team) and Evenapoel with Rodriguez, Yates and Yates and things would improve but I think Vingagoago plus a Pog without a busted arm would be head and shoulders above still. Mind you it would be good to see what Evenapoel would have done on that TT, I suspect Vingagoago would have battered him too.
Not sure why the pillion gets fined. It’s not his fault that the driver made an error
Because the pillion tells the pilot where he wants to be.
Pillion says "go here", he's then jointly responsible for the pilot being there.
Same with those press and TV bikes that impeded Pogacar - without the photographers saying "hold it here while I get this shot!" the bikes wouldn't have been there. Yes the pilot could/should have over-ruled but they're trying to negotiate crowds, steep climb, hairpin bends etc, they can't be looking in the mirrors constantly.
The most telling thing about these comments is you can pretty much tell who’s watched or listened to the tour as it happened and who’s skimmed the highlights.
Or hasn't watched any of it and has just looked at the time gaps!
Ah come on, the time gaps are stupid. But vingegard has been up there the entire race and also has been asking with pog the last one standing in gc several times on big stages. The tt was extraordinary and to follow it up with effectively a massive attack yesterday to try and win the stage is still astonishing.
Yeah pog cracked which at least shows he is human, vingegard is clearly so far above everyone else he might as well be on another planet (thank you equipe).
If he isn't doping then he truly is more than a one in a generation, lanterne rouge power ratings etc show something extraordinary/outstanding/inhuman (pick your poison)
Poj quoting today he’s suffering from a Gastric / energy issue. …”difficult to eat, sits in my stomach and doesn’t go to my legs…”
If he isn’t doping then he truly is more than a one in a generation,
You mean like Pogacar, the tour winner who can mix it up in the spring classics?
What amazes me most about this 'great performance = doping' thinking is how selective people are with it. By which I mean they focus in on one rider, Vingegaard in this case. If history has taught us one thing it's that its never a case of just one bad apple, if one is on it loads of them are.
If you want to have Vingegaard as a doper then you really need to accept that the whole barrel is still rotten. And this is why I choose to suspend judgement, because I want to watch and enjoy cycling.
I won't argue, i think pog and others are probably doing something too. Pogs 2020 win has to be among the most suspicious rides too
If you want to have Vingegaard as a doper then you really need to accept that the whole barrel is still rotten. And this is why I choose to suspend judgement, because I want to watch and enjoy cycling.
For me i watch and enjoy it with more of a cynical twist that i don't KNOW, but i suspect all of the big players are sailing somewhat close to the wind in terms of 'help'... It may be fully maximising the best of the best in terms of legal assistance, or it may be crossing that line with new technology, who knows.
One thing i do know is that they're superhuman in terms of effort, determination and pure will-power even if they are/not enhanced a bit... Not just the fastest, but the WHOLE of the riders, they're all just complete and utter beasts to do this day in day out, again, again.
For me i watch and enjoy it with more of a cynical twist that i don’t KNOW, but i suspect all of the big players are sailing somewhat close to the wind in terms of ‘help’… It may be fully maximising the best of the best in terms of legal assistance, or it may be crossing that line with new technology, who knows.
Yes, that's pretty much where I'm at. The other mental trick is not to invest too much in any one rider!
I'm not saying that anyone is wrong but comparing the time gaps you expect in a normal 22km time trial to one with a cat 2 climb in it isn't the way to win an argument
Putting+5 minutes into someone who has bonked and would be lucky to be putting out zone 2 power levels (even if those levels were super human by most standards) isn't a huge feat.
I'm pretty cynical about road cycling after believing in the likes of Millar, Landis, & Virenque but I'd still like to believe. Up till now Vingegard and Pogacar have been pretty well balanced and don't look any more remarkable than Yates walking away with the Giro (until he wasn't). Performance for anyone pushing themselves day after day is so finely balanced that something as minor as a slightly disturbed night's sleep is enough to make someone else look good. It might be doping but there are plenty of other explanations
Why not have Pog riding for Yates? If (a big if) Pog is suffering and not at his best and Yates is, it just makes sense.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing and there have been so many good riders abandoning this year, that it's easy to say who should or should not have been GC. Talking mainly about Ineos here.
The GC gaps are also a function of the best two riders having strong riders supporting them in their teams and once they have pulled at the front they drop off, so I'm not worried about that.
I think that either Tadej has a virus or he's paying the price for the interrupted preparation when he broke his hand.
The TT did feel like a little the bad old days but there doesn't feel like all of the other unbelievable efforts of team mates, randoms from other teams are happening like the lance/mig eras - and the riders having a bad day is the stuff that we didn't see so that is another indicator that the current riders aren't doing stupid sh1t, although they may well be flexing the rules as much as they can flex
Why not have Pog riding for Yates? If (a big if) Pog is suffering and not at his best and Yates is, it just makes sense
If he's that cooked he wouldn't be much use.
UAE will probably tailor their tactics on the last hilly day depending on how everyone feels and what the opposition do. Ideally they want to fill those 2 podium places and to do that, Pogacar and Yates just need to mark those close behind them in the GC. If Pogacar can't do that but Yates can then that puts Yates in second. GC wise there isn't a lot of point in Yates attacking but maybe they'll target the stage with him.
For me i watch and enjoy it with more of a cynical twist that i don’t KNOW, but i suspect all of the big players are sailing somewhat close to the wind in terms of ‘help’… It may be fully maximising the best of the best in terms of legal assistance, or it may be crossing that line with new technology, who knows.
Same as F1, Football, name a sport...
One thing i do know is that they’re superhuman in terms of effort, determination and pure will-power even if they are/not enhanced a bit… Not just the fastest, but the WHOLE of the riders, they’re all just complete and utter beasts to do this day in day out, again, again.
Yo need to remember Therese are top 200 or so cyclists in a world of billions of cyclists, a tiny percentage. Go and watch a few GCN YouTube video's to see just how effective event he slowest tour riders are against some pretty decent standards of "normal".
One thing i do know is that they’re superhuman in terms of effort, determination and pure will-power even if they are/not enhanced a bit… Not just the fastest, but the WHOLE of the riders, they’re all just complete and utter beasts to do this day in day out, again, again.
GCN put one of their (former) pro riders onto the Alpe d'Huez segment to see if he could make the time cut - the stage from 2022 won by Tom Pidcock. They ignored that time and instead went for the cut-off; the final rider up the Alpe, just inside the time cut was Fabio Jakobsen. So they took his time up that segment, 57 minutes and tried to beat it.
Didn't come close.
Bear in mind that Jakobsen is not a climber, he was 2 weeks into a Grand Tour, he'd done 120+km to even get to the foot of the Alpe that day (over several other cols) whereas the GCN pro (admittedly not WorldTour level but considerably better than most riders) simply went to the bottom of the Alpe, warmed up and then smashed it. He was nowhere near the time cut from even the non-climbiest person in the race.
It's like when people say "oh Cav can't climb". Against Pogacar, no he can't. Against any club cyclist, any random 2nd Cat off a training camp, he'd ****ing annihilate them. He'd be waiting at the top on his second coffee before the likes of us crawled pathetically up the hill.
Wout out
GCN put one of their (former) pro riders onto the Alpe d’Huez segment
Is Hank a former pro? I thought that was the enormo-tall fella, Hank's just a 'good club level' cyclist. Happy to be wrong though, and +1 to the rest of your post
He’d be waiting at the top on his second coffee before the likes of us crawled pathetically up the hill
Totally! With his rainbow stripes to make the point even more blatant.
So they took his time up that segment, 57 minutes and tried to beat it.
Doesn't seem right. I did it in 60 minutes and there were loads of people faster than me.
It's a shame that we're all looking at time gaps on the top 2 and various bits of doping speculation and rather ignoring the really quite impressive stage win from a first year Tour rider.
AG2R played yesterday really well. Three guys in the break, a lot of hard work and Felix Gall put in a brilliantly timed attack towards the end. He didn't look like the best descender on that last little plummet yesterday but to be fair it was so fast that no-one was really going to gain any time on it. And then he hung on to the last on the runway.
He did a similar attack at the Tour de Suisse and actually moved into the race lead briefly before losing it again next day so he's clearly got the raw talent but he's definitely one to watch in future.
Really good win, very impressive - even if I was also cheering Simon on 20" behind him!
It’s like when people say “oh Cav can’t climb”. Against Pogacar, no he can’t. Against any club cyclist, any random 2nd Cat off a training camp, he’d **** annihilate them. He’d be waiting at the top on his second coffee before the likes of us crawled pathetically up the hill.
I don't doubt that for a single second.
Wout out
He's definitely not a team player: Selfish bastard has just wrecked ny fantasy team because his wife is going to pop a sprog. Putting himself first again 🙁
^ I went to the Tour of Flanders in April and rode the 90 mile sportive. There were fit club riders flying past me all day but the next day the pro men rode nearly 300km at an average 3 x my speed. If those fit club riders had been up against the pros they’d have been passed all day just like I was.
GCN posted this overnight, enjoy!
I’m not saying that anyone is wrong but comparing the time gaps you expect in a normal 22km time trial to one with a cat 2 climb in it isn’t the way to win an argument
That's an entirely fair comment. There's still been some quite extraordinary performances though. We're almost getting used to seeing stuff that until recently we hadn't seen in the modern era.
Personally, I don't worry about it too much and it has been very entertaining. I also think discussions on here are generally quite balanced.
If there was foul play involved I'd be fascinated to know what it is and how they get away with it.
I have no idea what power output I have, but I know it would be a fraction of what they did in that video.
YOu only have to compare it to 'flat' rides that we or anyone here mostly does.
If you can ride a flat route and average 20mph, you're pretty bloody decent for a normal person... They'll average over 30mph at that sort of stuff even solo. That's 50% quicker !
Yep, when you see the kmh shows on screen for the tour it still amazes me.
Speeds most people would do in a car and they are doing it on bikes
Is Hank a former pro? I thought that was the enormo-tall fella, Hank’s just a ‘good club level’ cyclist. Happy to be wrong though, and +1 to the rest of your post
I think he was in a team but not like a world team pro. I was pretty pleased that he got the same time as me up the climb - I totally misspaced it - dying at the end.
In other news I see that Jumbo and UAE got extra blood test doping tests. IIRC they don't normally do the blood testing during the actual race, just the pee testing. So I guess someone in the TDF circus raised an eyebrow.... (and if there is one thing the TDF is not short of it's people who 'know' about doping)
Did no-one see the interview with Pog's DS (i think that was his job)? Basically he said they knew before the tour that he wasn't fit - the performance director was certain of it. But they thought "we'll just go and see what happens"
Did no-one see the interview with Pog’s DS (i think that was his job)? Basically he said they knew before the tour that he wasn’t fit – the performance director was certain of it. But they thought “we’ll just go and see what happens”
Sure but what else was he going to say?
Anyone watching the Tour De France Unchained on Netflix? Gives a seldom seen insight into the riders, team tactics and what really makes them tick behind the scenes.
Normalised Power on some of the rolling flatter stages, hidden from the wind, is lower than people think (and I had that data from a well-known pro who did rather well). A decent Cat 2 cyclist could sit in the bunch. Once it goes uphill, things will change significantly.
